Leicester Tigers vs Ulster - Welford Road ERCC

by Artful_Dodger Sat 18 Oct 2014, 7:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Think this match deserves its own thread.

Leicester Tigers: Mathew Tait; Blaine Scully, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Williams, Vereniki Goneva; Freddie Burns, Ben Youngs (c); Marcos Ayerza, Leonardo Ghiraldini, Fraser Balmain, Brad Thorn, Graham Kitchener, Jamie Gibson, Julian Salvi, Jordan Crane
Replacements: Harry Thacker, Michele Rizzo, Tiziano Pasquali, Sebastian De Chaves, Robert Barbieri, David Mele, Sam Harrison, Miles Benjamin

Ulster: L Ludik; T Bowe, J Payne, S McCloskey, C Gilroy; P Jackson, P Marshall; A Warwick, R Best (c), W Herbst, L Stevenson, F van der Merwe, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams.
Replacements: R Herring, C Black, D Fitzpatrick, C Ross, R Wilson, M Heaney, S Olding, D Cave.

by Guest Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:17 pm

Yep, Rory, McCloskey is another who might easily fit into that slot. McCloskey and Olding might well be the future for Ulster, and Ireland. Hopefully we can see them get an opportunity soon. At this point I just want this issue sorted, and for Ulster to move on as a settled side.

by **Notch** Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:20 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Notch wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Yep. Payne shines at 15. Why can't IRFU/Ulster Rugby just accept that fact?

Amen, the other centres we have are just too good to keep this little experiment going.

They are all pretty average though...mccloskey was found out tonight and was poor enough. the rest well...meh

McCloskey got the ball once in the game, broke a tackle, footwork took him past two other players, offload out the back straight into the bread basket of supporting player.

9 and 10 need to give him the ball and the pack need to win it first.

by ME-109 Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:21 pm

Not sure what games you boys are watching some times. Payne looked dangerous as did Gilroy and Bowe due to some good play by Jackson. Otherwise Mccloskey, Olding and Cave were the same old same old...but am sure they are brilliant.

by Welly Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:22 pm

Manu has a done his groin again Fuk, fuk, Fuk, Fuk, Fuk, Fuk, Fuk, Fuk.

On the bright side looks like the team is starting to build onto Blakes Defencive vision.

by nathan Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:23 pm

Did they mention how long he'll be out for?

by Welly Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:23 pm

nathan wrote:Did they mention how long he'll be out for?

No but cockers didn't look to promising about it all.

Sad

by MrsP Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:25 pm

I was just going to ask what happened to Manu?

The telly folk said it was a concussion but that didn't seem right and then they said he was holding his shoulder??? I thought he had lost a contact lens in the tackle but that seemed unlikely when he went off.

by Welly Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:26 pm

The groin injury he did when was out for a bit has come up again.

Well according to Cockers.

by Standulstermen Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:30 pm

ME-109 wrote:Not sure what games you boys are watching some times. Payne looked dangerous as did Gilroy and Bowe due to some good play by Jackson. Otherwise Mccloskey, Olding and Cave were the same old same old...but am sure they are brilliant.

I agree with Notch regarding McCloskey. Stats say he got the ball twice and once was very impressive with it. I do however agree with you on Payne. He is showing some nice touches and needs persisted with IMO. Much more worrying tonight was our pack and halfbacks (although one follows the other)

by ME-109 Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:32 pm

Some nice touches by Jackson in the second half. I would say the difference in the teams was Ruan. With him Ulster would have won I believe.

by ShanesBridge77 Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:34 pm

Marshall (P) is great overall but he was poor tonight. Life is difficult if you can't get going from the base of the only positions you do manage.

Despite themselves Ulster did play some of the better rugby at times; T Bowe's try being a case inpoint.

by Welly Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:36 pm

ME-109 wrote:Some nice touches by Jackson in the second half. I would say the difference in the teams was Ruan. With him Ulster would have won I believe.

that's like me saying with Allen at 12 Leicester would have gotten the TBP without giving 2 needless tries away in that game.

We will never know what would have happened.

by Standulstermen Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:40 pm

ShanesBridge77 wrote:Marshall (P) is great overall but he was poor tonight. Life is difficult if you can't get going from the base of the only positions you do manage.

Despite themselves Ulster did play some of the better rugby at times; T Bowe's try being a case inpoint.

Paul Marshall is shocking overall. Seriously, seriously shocking and I want him to do well. Outside of Murray Ireland doesn't have any great 9s and it's a position we struggle with.

Marmion might help out there in fairness

by **profitius** Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:48 pm

McCloskey just didn't get the ball. We saw what he could do when he did get it but was then hauled off. They should have taken off Ludik, moved Payne to 15 and played Olding and McCloskey together.

by Standulstermen Sat 18 Oct 2014, 10:54 pm

profitius wrote:McCloskey just didn't get the ball. We saw what he could do when he did get it but was then hauled off. They should have taken off Ludik, moved Payne to 15 and played Olding and McCloskey together.

That's an option but I can't see it changing before next week. That's for the pro12 I think. We will need to rotate at some point

by Guest Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:13 pm

Welly wrote:
ME-109 wrote:Some nice touches by Jackson in the second half. I would say the difference in the teams was Ruan. With him Ulster would have won I believe.

that's like me saying with Allen at 12 Leicester would have gotten the TBP without giving 2 needless tries away in that game.

We will never know what would have happened.

Exactly right, let's not start any of that.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:15 pm

Jackson was under a lot of pressure he is a young ten and had Gibson and Kitchener (both well over six foot) charging at him every time he got the ball or attempted a kick. The Ulster back line didn't really click until you brought on the second playmaker and gave Jackson an outlet. Payne was wasted at 13 he didn't get into the game until he went back to 15. That big IC you had would have been better served making the half breaks at 13 and offloading to your flying winners. His only break came in the outside channel.

I have a bad feeling we won't be seeing Manu for a while. Another groin injury is not a good sign in a player known for his explosive play.

by Welly Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:18 pm

Also Allen a couple of weeks off being fully fit, was the last thing I heard.

But he was training in the pre game stuff so who knows.

by Standulstermen Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:22 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Jackson was under a lot of pressure he is a young ten and had Gibson and Kitchener (both well over six foot) charging at him every time he got the ball or attempted a kick. The Ulster back line didn't really click until you brought on the second playmaker and gave Jackson an outlet. Payne was wasted at 13 he didn't get into the game until he went back to 15. That big IC you had would have been better served making the half breaks at 13 and offloading to your flying winners. His only break came in the outside channel.

I have a bad feeling we won't be seeing Manu for a while. Another groin injury is not a good sign in a player known for his explosive play.

Was Payne not heavily involved in our first try at 13. I think we need to persist at least into next week. After that rotation becomes an issue and we can look at options

A fair point on Olding at 12 offering an outlet

by formerly known as Sam Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:33 pm

The first try was vastly aided by Benjamin stepping in and leaving an overlap and once that happened you have some outstanding broken field runners Payne chief amongst them. Surely you want him running the ball back with Bowe, Trimble and Gilroy.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:40 pm

Standulstermen wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Jackson was under a lot of pressure he is a young ten and had Gibson and Kitchener (both well over six foot) charging at him every time he got the ball or attempted a kick. The Ulster back line didn't really click until you brought on the second playmaker and gave Jackson an outlet. Payne was wasted at 13 he didn't get into the game until he went back to 15. That big IC you had would have been better served making the half breaks at 13 and offloading to your flying winners. His only break came in the outside channel.

I have a bad feeling we won't be seeing Manu for a while. Another groin injury is not a good sign in a player known for his explosive play.

Was Payne not heavily involved in our first try at 13. I think we need to persist at least into next week. After that rotation becomes an issue and we can look at options

A fair point on Olding at 12 offering an outlet

No I'm almost certain Payne was moved to fullback at this point.

by Standulstermen Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:41 pm

We will see. Ideally yes but I think it's too late to look at a change for next week especially with bastareaud in the centre for them. I actually think Payne is looking a bit more comfortable than previously so we need to see. It is Ireland driven this selection so we don't have total control

Pre-season I wanted to see Olding and Marshall at centre. Olding/McCloskey doesn't sound so bad. Pienaar back will make a big difference to the backs too

Rory he was still at centre for the first try as Ludik was still on

by Welly Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:47 pm

Anyway without our keys players coming back do either of us really have a chance against Toulon ATM?

and even Scarlets will be 50/50 away.

But if we get past Scarlets next week with a win and we then get Cole, Youngs, Mulipola, Parling, Croft, Allen & Manu back for December time we could have a chance against them

And if that is the case even as 2nd pace will either of us get into the KO's?

by The Great Aukster Sat 18 Oct 2014, 11:50 pm

I say congratulations to Tigers. They deserved the game.

There were just too many mistakes - Marshall intercept daft, Gilroy yellow idiotic, Jackson chargedown naive, lineout a shambles... Ulster were lucky to come away with a 4-1 scoreline.

by Guest Sun 19 Oct 2014, 12:06 am

The fixture list has been about as kind to Tigers as it could have been. Given the state of the squad atm there's no way they beat Ulster at Ravenhill or Toulon anywhere IMO. Avoiding those at this stage could have prevented a pretty disastrous year in Europe.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 10:06 am

Whew.

Having seen:

a) Ulster demolish Glasgow last week.
b) Bath destroyed by Glasgow yesterday

I was worried.

Again very little in the way of a discernible attacking plan, but clear signs that the defensive game is progressing and that there is some real team spirit. Shame all the action was at the clubhouse stand, what with my seats being at the other end Very Happy

I am really impressed by the progress young Balmain is making - and are there a better lineout pair than Kitch and Gibson atm? Totally destroyed Ulster in the first half.

Finally why do kickers take conversions from so close. Jackson could only have gone back about 10m - crazy.

by Pete330v2 Sun 19 Oct 2014, 1:06 pm

I am embarrassed by my mad, drunken comment on this thread during the match last night, drink and anger mixed together can show the worst parts of the best of us Smile

Anyway, well done Tiggers, you guys raised your game as expected. I thought we were going to do a Munster on you at the end there but sadly it was not to be. We won't be as shocking as that in the return fixture I hope. I fear for us against Toulon if the same mistakes in selection and on the field are going to be made.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 19 Oct 2014, 1:46 pm

Nothing like beer and emotion Pete.

Agreed LT. Balmain is only an average scrummager but I can't recall another prop we've had covering that amount of work in attack and defence. The lad got everywhere and held up pretty well against some very good Ulster props. Kitch and Gibson seem to relish the new tactics in defence with the pair of the them really applying pressure at line out and in general on the half backs. If Kitchener isn't in the England squad I'll be gobsmacked.

by Standulstermen Sun 19 Oct 2014, 5:32 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Whew.

Having seen:

a) Ulster demolish Glasgow last week.
b) Bath destroyed by Glasgow yesterday

I was worried.

Again very little in the way of a discernible attacking plan, but clear signs that the defensive game is progressing and that there is some real team spirit. Shame all the action was at the clubhouse stand, what with my seats being at the other end

I am really impressed by the progress young Balmain is making - and are there a better lineout pair than Kitch and Gibson atm? Totally destroyed Ulster in the first half.

Finally why do kickers take conversions from so close. Jackson could only have gone back about 10m - crazy.

In fairness to Jackson having watched the replay Gibson is about 5m off the line before Jackson moves. Poite should be picking up on it but fair play to Gibson. Worst that happens is that he gets sent back. Didn't effect the game thank god otherwise I suspect there would be numerous gifs up already. I would say your lineout did a number on ours the whole game not just the first half!!!

by **Notch** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 5:48 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:The first try was vastly aided by Benjamin stepping in and leaving an overlap and once that happened you have some outstanding broken field runners Payne chief amongst them. Surely you want him running the ball back with Bowe, Trimble and Gilroy.

As succinct and accurate as you could put it. It's exactly what we want, we want him in broken field as much as possible and at 13 he's required to take the ball on with little time and space in structured play. It's just not playing to his strengths and at test level he'll have even less time and space so the whole endeavour seems like a dead end. He's not the answer to replacing BOD.

by Mad for Chelsea Sun 19 Oct 2014, 6:11 pm

Thought Leicester just about deserved the win, Ulster's first half effort just left them with too much to do, despite a great effort. I suspect neither team will be particularly disappointed with the result in the end, Ulster avoided disaster (at HT it looked like it could well be 5-0 which would have put them in great difficulty re qualification), while Leicester got the all-important win (can't lose at home).

Toulon not getting a BP against Scarlets feels like a boost to both teams too...

by yappysnap Sun 19 Oct 2014, 8:31 pm

Congrats Leicester, that was a brilliant performance by the pack. Kitchener, Salvi and Crane in particular we're outstanding.

Just out of interest do the Irish sides usually start slowly in the Rabo as well? I know it's a tactic used by some other teams to let the opposition tire themselves in the first 60 and then rely on superior fitness to win it in the last 20, is this the case?

by SecretFly Sun 19 Oct 2014, 8:54 pm

yappysnap wrote:
Just out of interest do the Irish sides usually start slowly in the Rabo as well? I know it's a tactic used by some other teams to let the opposition tire themselves in the first 60 and then rely on superior fitness to win it in the last 20, is this the case?

Hmmm................would we tell you such a thing, Yappy??? Whistle

That might be considered a classified State secret......

Seriously though, I don't think it would be much of a mystery that Irish sides tend to mostly (not always but mostly) do most of their work in the second half. Whether that's all plan'n'purpose or simply that their training regimes allow them to blow second wind into a game at around the halfway mark...well, we'll guess.
But as a straight tactic, I'd suggest it's only a good one if you can surprise your enemy by doing something completely different when they least expect it. You always have to have the capability to hit the ground running from the off and surprisingly bludgeon a side expecting you to sit back in a first half. Ideally you gotta keep the enemy guessing...and have both fast start and slow start tactics available to you through a season.

by yappysnap Sun 19 Oct 2014, 8:57 pm

True true, I'll guess we'll see a little more next weekend if it was tactics or just them being a bit lazy Very Happy

by **Notch** Sun 19 Oct 2014, 9:45 pm

I think all the provinces just played poorly and then turned it around- they are none of them the kind of teams that crumble and let it fall apart when things go wrong but each of them has their own serious problems shown in the performances. The responses were good, though Ulsters was just not enough and too late. But Ulster still didn't play well in their 'comeback', if it had been 80 minutes of that we would have won but it still wouldn't have been that good a performance. We need to turn it up to 11 next week. Not sure if we can do it.

Think an Irish winner of the Pro12 is likely but an Irish European champion is very far-fetched. It's pretty open, so one of the Irish sides could still get into a semi-final, but none of us are looking that great.

by yappysnap Sun 19 Oct 2014, 10:08 pm

To be honest it's too early to tell but take out Toulon and i'd say Munster, Leinster and Ulster all have as much of a chance as any of the others.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:21 am

I was there at the game last night.
It was a pretty flat affair for a Euro night overall.

All tiggers one minute and all squeaky bum the next. But no joy at any point.

At least my Ulster co-attendees were not of the peed and vindictive variety like last time around.

But still - there's two sides who are going nowhere this season.

by **George Carlin** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:51 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I was there at the game last night.
It was a pretty flat affair for a Euro night overall.

All tiggers one minute and all squeaky bum the next. But no joy at any point.

At least my Ulster co-attendees were not of the peed and vindictive variety like last time around.

But still - there's two sides who are going nowhere this season.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:04 am

At least I did not have a middle aged man in front of me who thought his trophy gf was impressed by him standing every 30 seconds to sing SUFTUM

by yappysnap Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:05 am

Wasn't she?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:26 am

Aren't all young women in their mid 20s impressed by such behaviour from a boyfriend/husband old enough to be their father?

And before anyone suggests perhaps he was her father - I sincerely hope the tongues and hands suggest not. Otherwise I have a whole new set of jokes.

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