More impressive/defining - Ali circa 1 or 2?

We have the pre-vietnam exoduas Clay/Ali who was the unbeatable dancing machine..beat the unbeatable monster that was Liston twice...scored perhaps his greatest performance against Big Cat, superb against Folley and was without doubt one of the greatest ring animals and in his pomp..

Then we have the relatively leg-less. rope-a-doping circa 2 post-Vietnam exodus who lost to Norton/Frazier and Spinks but avenged both losses twice, fought in some superfights and beat another unbeatable monster in Foreman..

Two different Ali's both great but with different skill sets....

for you which one was most impressive/defining..

Despite the big, big wins coming in his second 'career' (Liston aside), it has to be the first part for me. Did things that a heavyweight was just not meant to do, and hasn't been replicated to this day. Truly incredible skills, speed, reflexes etc.

Pre exile was the better fighter, post exile beat the better fighters. Interestingly the two fighters who fought in pre and post exile both agree the pre exile fighter was better. They argued at least you could land punches on him post exile and for as long as you are landing at heavy you have a shot. Both say he was virtually impossible to tag cleanly prior to his exile

The 70s the most defining. Reasonable argument to say he was better in the 60s though.

As a pure boxer, you'd have to go with Clay/Young Ali. Has there been a better "big" man blessed with such skill, grace and, above all, natural talent?

As for Ali version 2, to admire him is to admire his ability to defy the odds time after time and whilst there were plenty of stinkers in there, surely he had enough epic fights and more importantly, great wins to justify his reputation as "the greatest".

Circa 1 for me, absolutely love his performance against Cleveland Williams. Circa 2 is whats he's known for but he was something else before Vietnam, one of the fastest hands for a Heavyweight ever.

The Galveston Giant wrote:Circa 1 for me, absolutely love his performance against Cleveland Williams. Circa 2 is whats he's known for but he was something else before Vietnam, one of the fastest hands for a Heavyweight ever.

No, that was Tony Tubbs

Tubbs had fast hands too Dave.

His first incarnation was certainly more 'impressive' and complete, but if we go on which one was more 'defining' then it's the Ali of the seventies, and by a fair distance, too.

I think if you split his 'two careers' up in to pre-exile and post-exile and then gave them to two different Heavyweights on their way up (obviously allowing for the first twenty-odd fights won before challenging for the title), the one given the post-exile career would have to rank higher in the all-time Heavyweight scheme of things. Ali looked imperious in the sixties for sure, but Liston, Patterson (who'd probably seen better days), Terrell and Folley, while excellent, can't compare to Foreman, Shavers, Norton and Frazier collectively.

The fact that Ali did this without much of what had been his greatest weapon (pure greased lightning speed) is a greater testament to his standing as an all-time great Heavyweight than his 1964-1967 form is, at least in my eyes.

All in all with everything taken in to account, I've got to go with the seventies version of Ali here.

DAVE has never seen Tony Tubbs so go easy...

Think circa 2 was more defining as he beat the better fighters....

Kind of went from great respected champion to something out of this world with the thrilla and rumble....

Although I agree the first coming was better.

The Ali of the 1960s would have beaten the slower version of the 1970s. His 1970s record is filled with much better fighters though. He would have destroyed them in the 1960s. I doubt Frazier would have marched him down in the manner he was able to.

He would have had an easier time with foreman who always had problems with jab and run type boxers.

Az I was kind of asking which was more defining as well as impressive...

I mean Ali was in his prime in the 60's so no doubt would beat his slower 70's version..

Thrilla in Manilla
Fight of the Century
Rumble in the Jungle

Second career was more defining.

I think you're right....although he wasn't such a dominant champion then....

Blew away Liston twice, Foley, Williams and unified with Terrell as well as doing Patterson......

Could be argued he enhanced his already fine legacy in circa 2..

But I'm with you the second was more defining..

As a boxer, the 1970s version deffo. But as a man, the 1960s radicalism is more defining. When people think of Ali now, they see him more as an icon than a former boxer. The iconic status was gained in the 1960s.

You could have a point..

As a physical specimen the 60's version was greater than the 70's version, however it is clear apart from Liston his defining fights were in the 70's but is that due to fact his diminished physical capabilties were aknowledged post vietnam? I think the pre exile Ali beats Frazier,Forman & Norton in much more convincing fashion!

azania wrote:As a boxer, the 1970s version deffo. But as a man, the 1960s radicalism is more defining. When people think of Ali now, they see him more as an icon than a former boxer. The iconic status was gained in the 1960s.

Surely you mean iconic stutus in 70's...anyway, it's strange really than some people seem to forget their was life before Vietnam for Ali...much like Ozzy Osbourne is more widely known as a bumbling old duffer screaming, "SHARRRROOONNNN!" every five minutes as opposed to being frontman for one of heavy metal's greatest ever and most influential bands.

DAVE667 wrote:

azania wrote:As a boxer, the 1970s version deffo. But as a man, the 1960s radicalism is more defining. When people think of Ali now, they see him more as an icon than a former boxer. The iconic status was gained in the 1960s.

Surely you mean iconic stutus in 70's...anyway, it's strange really than some people seem to forget their was life before Vietnam for Ali...much like Ozzy Osbourne is more widely known as a bumbling old duffer screaming, "SHARRRROOONNNN!" every five minutes as opposed to being frontman for one of heavy metal's greatest ever and most influential bands.

No. His iconic status due to his activities, words etc outside of the ring. That was more in the 1960s than in the 1970s. He is now up there with Ghandi, King, X, Mandela, Che as iconic figures to thumbed their noses as convention and were proved right (not in Che's case). They all could have played the game and made a mint but decided to fight far bigger enemies for their principles.

I'm not sure I agree with you Azania.....He certainly became an anti-war figure head but some might accuse him of cowardice instead of being this brave spokesman..

Black and whites that bravely took the call were streaming back in body bags...

For me to put Ali up there with people that fought at home against oppressive regimes is a bit of a stretch mate..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm not sure I agree with you Azania.....He certainly became an anti-war figure head but some might accuse him of cowardice instead of being this brave spokesman..

Black and whites that bravely took the call were streaming back in body bags...

For me to put Ali up there with people that fought at home against oppressive regimes is a bit of a stretch mate..

He wouldn't have seen active duty. In the manner of Louis, Elvis, he would have been sent to bolster the troops moral etc. He was told that and yet he risked 5 years jail, huge fine and ending his career. All for his principles. His iconin words resonated within African Americans and Africans across the globe "No VC ever called me a N".

Nothing to do with cowardice and all to do with a principal stand. Brave man in risking all. A legend and an icon. A credit to his race; the human race. Shame that crackers only saw an uppity N.

Elvis served the same as any other soldier Az, the reason he did not see active service is because there was not a war in at the time. Don't diss the king, I am a reasonable man but even I have my limits

He'd still have to selflessly give up his time in order to support his supposed fellow countrymen in their hour of need...

How many soldiers supported the war..

Don't agree...

rowley wrote:Elvis served the same as any other soldier Az, the reason he did not see active service is because there was not a war in at the time. Don't diss the king, I am a reasonable man but even I have my limits

Listen to the lyrics of Public Enemy's "Dont believe the Hype" and what they say about Elvis.

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Elvis served the same as any other soldier Az, the reason he did not see active service is because there was not a war in at the time. Don't diss the king, I am a reasonable man but even I have my limits

Listen to the lyrics of Public Enemy's "Dont believe the Hype" and what they say about Elvis.

There is about as much chance of me listening to a public enemy song as there is of you starting a Rocky Marciano fan club, but as it happens I have heard that lyric, their usual ill informed and poorly researched drivel.

I wouldn't bother responding Rowley..

You never get anywhere with people that have suspicious minds..

They get all shook up about it

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He'd still have to selflessly give up his time in order to support his supposed fellow countrymen in their hour of need...

How many soldiers supported the war..

Don't agree...

He was a consciencious objector. He would have had an easier time if he took the step. By refusing to take the step to fight people in a country hardly anyone knew existed was a brave move especially with the penalties he knew he would have ot pay.

Moreover, his bigger fight was with the cracker enemies at home. Why fight for the freedom (colonialism freedom that is) when those denying you freedom at home get a free ride. Where did Bush and Quayle and the rest of the baby boomer generation who had rich daddies serve?

Don't be cruel lads.

How can not risking your life be braver than risking it..

Much easier to risk jailhouse rock...

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Elvis served the same as any other soldier Az, the reason he did not see active service is because there was not a war in at the time. Don't diss the king, I am a reasonable man but even I have my limits

Listen to the lyrics of Public Enemy's "Dont believe the Hype" and what they say about Elvis.

There is about as much chance of me listening to a public enemy song as there is of you starting a Rocky Marciano fan club, but as it happens I have heard that lyric, their usual ill informed and poorly researched drivel.

No it isn't. Its very accurate. But I wont argue the point. Not on this thread anyway.

feel free to argue it...better than talking about..

girls, girls, girls...

Don't you guys move to another thread it'l make me..

feel so lonesome I could die.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm not sure I agree with you Azania.....He certainly became an anti-war figure head but some might accuse him of cowardice instead of being this brave spokesman..

Black and whites that bravely took the call were streaming back in body bags...

For me to put Ali up there with people that fought at home against oppressive regimes is a bit of a stretch mate..

I have to agree with this, Ali's refusal to serve the army can be interpreted in two ways. Either he was cowardice and scared to serve his country during a time of war or whether he genuinly was oppossed to the cause. Luckily for him he could hide behind the Nation of Islam banner and site religious reasons for his decision.

Ali is an iconic sportsman due to being the best fighter in one of the greatest ever era's in heavyweight boxing. He came to prominence off the back of the civil rights movement but did he actually contribute to any social problems. Joining the Nation of Islam acting as their puppet only exacerbated tensions. Although Ali is iconic due to his amazing in ring rivalries as well as his controversial personality it times of social unrest it is unfair to compair him with the likes of Gandhi or MLK.

Az, at the risk of hijacking Truss' thread Elvis regularly worked with black musicians, covered their songs, thus earning them royalties and also attended black only events and gave interviews to black magazines. From 2011 these might seem small things but in the deep south of the 1950s these are massive concessions for a prominent person to make and do not bespeak a racist.

Anyway agree this is not the time or place but as a fan this gets my goat and when the accusation is coming from Public enemy the irony is not inconsiderable.

All Elvis idols were black...his favorite being Jackie Wilson..

Think racism linked with Elvis quite laughable...

He loved them tender..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:How can not risking your life be braver than risking it..

Much easier to risk jailhouse rock...

He wasn't risking his life if he served. He wouldn't have bene put anywhere near harms way.

rowley wrote:Az, at the risk of hijacking Truss' thread Elvis regularly worked with black musicians, covered their songs, thus earning them royalties and also attended black only events and gave interviews to black magazines. From 2011 these might seem small things but in the deep south of the 1950s these are massive concessions for a prominent person to make and do not bespeak a racist.

Anyway agree this is not the time or place but as a fan this gets my goat and when the accusation is coming from Public enemy the irony is not inconsiderable.

rowley, I wont derail this thread by debating elvis of all people. But suffice to say I have a list of info which shows the opposite.

Likewise Az as a massive Elvis fan I have a plethora of biogrpahies on the man which all debunk the theory but given this is a boxing forum we will have to agree you're wrong and I'm right and move on.

rowley wrote:Likewise Az as a massive Elvis fan I have a plethora of biogrpahies on the man which all debunk the theory but given this is a boxing forum we will have to agree you're wrong and I'm right and move on.

OK. Call it a majority decision to me then

For my money, the best Ali would have been a synthesis of the two incarnations, and that's why it's such a tragedy that we lost those three and a half years.

I still say that the closest we got to seeing this was the second Jerry Quarry fight, in which he displayed something of the old athleticism, terrific coordination and handspeed, and was planting his feet to land some fairly hefty looking punches. Ali toyed with a very good Jerry Quarry in this fight.

A forgotten classic, that one and, ( given that the storied performance against Williams was against a fighter who was shot to pieces, ) I'd say it's a contender for Ali's greatest ever performance as a complete fighting machine.

HumanWindmill wrote:For my money, the best Ali would have been a synthesis of the two incarnations, and that's why it's such a tragedy that we lost those three and a half years.

I still say that the closest we got to seeing this was the second Jerry Quarry fight, in which he displayed something of the old athleticism, terrific coordination and handspeed, and was planting his feet to land some fairly hefty looking punches. Ali toyed with a very good Jerry Quarry in this fight.

A forgotten classic, that one and, ( given that the storied performance against Williams was against a fighter who was shot to pieces, ) I'd say it's a contender for Ali's greatest ever performance as a complete fighting machine.

Get off the fence windy. You'll get splinters on your rear end.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:For my money, the best Ali would have been a synthesis of the two incarnations, and that's why it's such a tragedy that we lost those three and a half years.

I still say that the closest we got to seeing this was the second Jerry Quarry fight, in which he displayed something of the old athleticism, terrific coordination and handspeed, and was planting his feet to land some fairly hefty looking punches. Ali toyed with a very good Jerry Quarry in this fight.

A forgotten classic, that one and, ( given that the storied performance against Williams was against a fighter who was shot to pieces, ) I'd say it's a contender for Ali's greatest ever performance as a complete fighting machine.

Get off the fence windy. You'll get splinters on your rear end.

I know that's how it sounds, az, but I'm deadly serious. Ali was superb in that second Quarry fight, and it gave us a tantalizing glimpse of what might have been.

Personally I thought his best performances was the Foley "what's my name fight" and his first Patterson fight. Both were brutally beautiful.

azania wrote:Personally I thought his best performances was the Foley "what's my name fight" and his first Patterson fight. Both were brutally beautiful.

You mean the Terrell fight ( ' What's my name ? ' ) I agree, and the Terrell fight is a worthy candidate, but he was that little bit bigger and stronger against Quarry, ( the SECOND Quarry fight, don't forget, ) and sat down on his punches more, while still boxing with speed, balance and coordination. One moment, in particular, is imprinted into my memory. Ali stands in the corner, beckoning Quarry in. Quarry duly obliges, trying to land a flurry, and Ali's reflexes see him brilliantly avoid Quarry's charge and catch him with a beauty of an uppercut.

Each to his own, and your call for the Terrell fight is a good one, but the Ali v Quarry II is my favourite.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:Personally I thought his best performances was the Foley "what's my name fight" and his first Patterson fight. Both were brutally beautiful.

You mean the Terrell fight ( ' What's my name ? ' ) I agree, and the Terrell fight is a worthy candidate, but he was that little bit bigger and stronger against Quarry, ( the SECOND Quarry fight, don't forget, ) and sat down on his punches more, while still boxing with speed, balance and coordination. One moment, in particular, is imprinted into my memory. Ali stands in the corner, beckoning Quarry in. Quarry duly obliges, trying to land a flurry, and Ali's reflexes see him brilliantly avoid Quarry's charge and catch him with a beauty of an uppercut.

Each to his own, and your call for the Terrell fight is a good one, but the Ali v Quarry II is my favourite.

Apologies, the Terrell fight. Blurring handspeed (and in colour also) and dazzling footwork. Almost poetry in motion.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:Personally I thought his best performances was the Foley "what's my name fight" and his first Patterson fight. Both were brutally beautiful.

You mean the Terrell fight ( ' What's my name ? ' ) I agree, and the Terrell fight is a worthy candidate, but he was that little bit bigger and stronger against Quarry, ( the SECOND Quarry fight, don't forget, ) and sat down on his punches more, while still boxing with speed, balance and coordination. One moment, in particular, is imprinted into my memory. Ali stands in the corner, beckoning Quarry in. Quarry duly obliges, trying to land a flurry, and Ali's reflexes see him brilliantly avoid Quarry's charge and catch him with a beauty of an uppercut.

Each to his own, and your call for the Terrell fight is a good one, but the Ali v Quarry II is my favourite.

Apologies, the Terrell fight. Blurring handspeed (and in colour also) and dazzling footwork. Almost poetry in motion.

I have it twice on film, az. One in b/w and one in colour.

Guess which one I like the better ?

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:Personally I thought his best performances was the Foley "what's my name fight" and his first Patterson fight. Both were brutally beautiful.

You mean the Terrell fight ( ' What's my name ? ' ) I agree, and the Terrell fight is a worthy candidate, but he was that little bit bigger and stronger against Quarry, ( the SECOND Quarry fight, don't forget, ) and sat down on his punches more, while still boxing with speed, balance and coordination. One moment, in particular, is imprinted into my memory. Ali stands in the corner, beckoning Quarry in. Quarry duly obliges, trying to land a flurry, and Ali's reflexes see him brilliantly avoid Quarry's charge and catch him with a beauty of an uppercut.

Each to his own, and your call for the Terrell fight is a good one, but the Ali v Quarry II is my favourite.

Apologies, the Terrell fight. Blurring handspeed (and in colour also) and dazzling footwork. Almost poetry in motion.

I have it twice on film, az. One in b/w and one in colour.

Guess which one I like the better ?

I'm sure they will digitally remake it into HD or 3D.

B/W makes you feel nostalgic. No doubt you prefer if it were on newsreel.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:Personally I thought his best performances was the Foley "what's my name fight" and his first Patterson fight. Both were brutally beautiful.

You mean the Terrell fight ( ' What's my name ? ' ) I agree, and the Terrell fight is a worthy candidate, but he was that little bit bigger and stronger against Quarry, ( the SECOND Quarry fight, don't forget, ) and sat down on his punches more, while still boxing with speed, balance and coordination. One moment, in particular, is imprinted into my memory. Ali stands in the corner, beckoning Quarry in. Quarry duly obliges, trying to land a flurry, and Ali's reflexes see him brilliantly avoid Quarry's charge and catch him with a beauty of an uppercut.

Each to his own, and your call for the Terrell fight is a good one, but the Ali v Quarry II is my favourite.

Apologies, the Terrell fight. Blurring handspeed (and in colour also) and dazzling footwork. Almost poetry in motion.

I have it twice on film, az. One in b/w and one in colour.

Guess which one I like the better ?

I'm sure they will digitally remake it into HD or 3D.

B/W makes you feel nostalgic. No doubt you prefer if it were on newsreel.

Haha !

You're right about the nostalgia, this time. I sat and watched it with my dad the night after it happened and our TV, of course, was b/w. It genuinely does stir those old memories and I really do prefer to watch the b/w one.

I bet when you went to live fights it was also in black and white