England Spin Options

First time poster, keen cricket fan though football is my main game. Was just wondering who you all would play as a front line spinner for England? I'm no expert on cricket so is there any hidden gems apart from the obvious names?

Also Gary Ballance showed he could get a bit of turn and obviously Joe Root is ok to bowl a few overs. Could either of them (with enough dedication and practice) get to the stage where Moeen Ali being our front line spinner is not such a problem?

Simon Kerrigan looks like he'll get the call up this series, there's also Adam Riley, Adil Rashid was thought highly of a few years ago, the other option could be to go with experience rather than youth and give Gareth Batty a call up, but I think the last time he played Brian Lara scored 400.

Problem with Ballance, is that he's a part-time leg-spinner. That's like being a part-time Nuclear physicist. It's an impossibly difficult art, and not worth pursuing unless you try to make it your primary skill. Even Warne was good for one bad ball every few overs, I'll be surprised if Ballance ever goes better than one rank ball an over.

Adil Rashid has faded from the selectors eye it seems, What about the Danny Briggs at Hampshire or George Dockrell? That is a fair point about Ballance, what to you make of Root?

bowling is about a mindset.....and not just a skill.

however skillful a player.....with a batsman or part-time bowlers mindset he won't achieve much.

Look at Tendulkar.......he had amazing leg spin skills....some of the leg-breaks and googlies he produced were no less than Warne's.....he just didn't feel it was his job to bowl nor did he practice.

Root isn't too bad, a bit of a golden arm, but I don't think he's a proper part-timer. Tendulkar is probably the best part-time leggie I ever saw, and he went at 3.52 per over. It's not worth it

Three options.
Pick a 'part-time/all-rounder' spin option, such as Ali, Borthwick or Rashid while playing 4 seamers.
Pick a young 'up-and-coming' option, Kerrigan, Riley, Briggs etc. and let them develop by playing tests.
Pick experienced 'stop-gap', Batty, Tredwell, and wait for someone else to develop.
Pays your money, takes your choice. Personally don't know which would be for the best.
Option one could mean you don't really have a top class, frontline spinner in the team.
Option two could easily backfire and see the chosen player lose confidence after finding the step up difficult.
Option three might mean picking a player who may not, really, be up to the task, and relies on someone else coming through.
Difficult.

Ballance actually bowled a decent over. However it shows how utterly bare the England spin cupboard is, when a guy who has never taken a First Class wicket is even getting considered as even a part time option!!

Horses for courses , Hoggy ?

This summer mostly option A as India generally play spin rather well anyway , and the seamers are likely the best chance of taking 20 wickets . Admittedly the groundsmen seem to be doing their best to undermine this strategy ...
Then move to Option B for the next tour (being to West Indies ?)

Keep option C in mind for next years Ashes if the first two don't look like working ?

At least Ballance might be worth the occasional over as a surprise move when absolutely nothing is happening ; even rubbish wrist spin sometimes flukes a wicket. Not a regular option , I hasten to add.

I am not sure Kerrigan will play at Lord's . If he replaces Stokes it risks making quite sure Jimmy , Broad and Plunkett are carried off in a box before long. So he would have to replace one of the top six ...I know Jimmy is now officially an All Rounder but don't think they really want to shorten the batting at the moment ; nor do they want to mess around with the young batsmen who are trying to settle into the team.
I think he'll be waiting for a chance on a pitch which is really likely to assist spin ...not sure that is Lord's.

alfie wrote:Horses for courses , Hoggy ?

This summer mostly option A as India generally play spin rather well anyway , and the seamers are likely the best chance of taking 20 wickets . Admittedly the groundsmen seem to be doing their best to undermine this strategy ...
Then move to Option B for the next tour (being to West Indies ?)

Keep option C in mind for next years Ashes if the first two don't look like working ?

At least Ballance might be worth the occasional over as a surprise move when absolutely nothing is happening ; even rubbish wrist spin sometimes flukes a wicket.  Not a regular option , I hasten to add.

I am not sure Kerrigan will play at Lord's .  If he replaces Stokes it risks making quite sure Jimmy , Broad and Plunkett are carried off in a box before long.  So he would have to replace one of the top six ...I know Jimmy is now officially an All Rounder but don't think they really want to shorten the batting at the moment ; nor do they want to mess around with the young batsmen who are trying to settle into the team.
I think he'll be waiting for a chance on a pitch which is really likely to assist spin ...not sure that is Lord's.

If Kerrigan does play and I agree I doubt he will, I would imagine it would be Ali who makes way. As you say we need the four pace men and although it would be harsh on Ali, if one of the batsman has to go, then it would most likely be him. Wither or not Ballance is a long term #3 time will tell, but he really needs to get a good run at it.

Not spin related, but when Bell first broke through wasn't he a tidy part time medium pacer? I cannot remember the last time I saw him have a bowl in a test. If needed, Trott and KP(if hes allowed to be mentioned) were always handy for a little spell. Always handy to have a half decent part timer to give the big guns a rest on a hot day in the field.

What about Scott Borthwick?   

Borthwick has had a few injuries this year, not been bowling as much as he would of liked I'm sure.

Dockrell is an interesting name that I haven't heard mentioned much re. England. Has a very similar FC record to Kerrigan average wise but has played about 30 less games and is still yet to turn 22. Definitely one for the future, although I've actually hardly seen any of him bowl, certainly in the FC stuff.

An interesting opening article from ncfclad (a warm welcome btw) and some very good comments. Particularly liked the way that Hoggy showed the three options and the main contenders under each.

As regulars will know, I'm no fan of the part-time spinner. He doesn't get (enough) wickets, doesn't tie down an end and ends up leaving the seamers dead on their feet as in the last Test. Imo, you need a specialist spinner bowling at Test class batsmen. The likes of Root and Ballance hardly bowl when they turn out for Yorks - other than a very occasional over, it's surely unreasonable to expect them to do so when stepping up to the higher level of Test cricket. For me, Root bowled too much in Australia and with a staggering lack of success.

I may be wrong in the above opinion but I have some good company. Graeme Swann said yesterday that it was "a ludicrous idea" not to play a specialist spinner and added, "he needs to bowl 30 - 40 overs in the second innings, and part-time spinners are not good enough to do that."

Kerrigan is clearly a full-time spinner but whether he is yet ready remains to be seen. I note that Alec Stewart's preferred option is Gareth Batty. Whilst acknowledging Batty as "a short-term option", Stewart commented that "he has the experience and nous to fill the void". As a Surrey follower, I certainly would doubt Batty's international pedigree but fully appreciate where Stewart is coming from.

Welcome ncfclad! (Are you a follower of the mighty canaries like myself? If so I point you towards the football section and Championship section to discuss Norwich with me!!)

One name I'm gonna throw into the ring as a youngster of the future - Ravi Patel.

If Monty was fit, mentally all there and bowling well he'd play for me, easily the best spinner we have at the moment. But thus he isn't, and I wouldn't like to chuck a youngster in against India on horror wickets.

Thanks for the welcome gentleman and yes I am a fellow Canary, born just down the road on ketts hill to a norwich mad family so I never had a choice! Monty is a real shame as he is our only test class spinner in my opinion. Makes me laugh the stick Ashley Giles used to get when he was a decent foil to Harmison, Hoggard and Freddie.

I'll continue to champion Briggs for the valiant cause.

Batty for England - that would be one of the more unlikely selections of recent years.  Stalwart county cricketer etc, but does underline the dearth of options.

ncfclad1991 wrote:Thanks for the welcome gentleman and yes I am a fellow Canary, born just down the road on ketts hill to a norwich mad family so I never had a choice!  Monty is a real shame as he is our only test class spinner in my opinion.  Makes me laugh the stick Ashley Giles used to get when he was a decent foil to Harmison, Hoggard and Freddie.

Ah right in the heart of the fine city!

Pop yourself over here this season - https://www.606v2.com/t53758-the-official-2014-15-norwich-city-to-a-playoff-semi-final-loss-thread-sponsored-by-the-inevitable-mid-table-finish-for-ipswich-town

We can discuss our glorious promotion

oh FFS one was bad enough

Anyways back on case I'd keep the side as it is at the moment, and look to introduce a youngster against the windies during the winter months

George Dockrell isn't an Englishman!.
Has he professed an overwhelming desire to play test cricket like the last Ireland player who was poached?

Won't be a bad poach for England though!.

I would think most cricketers would dream of playing yet cricket even if it is for an adopted country.

Bit risky for Daniel Bryan to be risking his shoulder.

Olly wrote: If Monty was fit, mentally all there and bowling well he'd play for me, easily the best spinner we have at the moment. But thus he isn't, and I wouldn't like to chuck a youngster in against India on horror wickets.

There must be some genuine serious worries about the state of Monty mentally. With Swann gone he must have known that if he knuckled down and even performed okish for Essex he would be in the England team. Yet, he continues to struggle with off the field issues and has been dropped at least one occasion already this season for off the field behavior.

Really hope he gets himself sorted.

as far as I know, Dockrell has indeed stated his desire to play cricket... for Ireland!

It is indeed a huge shame about Monty, but he looked completely out of sorts in Australia (having already had his problems the previous summer), I just can't see him bouncing back.

I'd still go with Kerrigan.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:as far as I know, Dockrell has indeed stated his desire to play cricket... for Ireland!

It is indeed a huge shame about Monty, but he looked completely out of sorts in Australia (having already had his problems the previous summer), I just can't see him bouncing back.

I'd still go with Kerrigan.

The ECB should appoint Dockrell's county coach as deputy to Moores to put him in his place!!.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jul/14/simon-kerrigan-england-lancashire-nottinghamshire-county-championship-match-report

Kerrigan's having a rough old time of it, and not in a good way!

Mad for Chelsea wrote:as far as I know, Dockrell has indeed stated his desire to play cricket... for Ireland!

It is indeed a huge shame about Monty, but he looked completely out of sorts in Australia (having already had his problems the previous summer), I just can't see him bouncing back.

I'd still go with Kerrigan.

Mfc - when you bring in Kerrigan, who are you planning on leaving out?

Whilst I might be prepared to give Kerrigan a go, I would be reluctant to do so with him being part of only a 4 full-time bowling attack. To my mind, a batsman (and I regard Ali as a batsman here) would have to be sacrificed.

This is where we benefitted so much from Swann - being able to play just the 4 bowlers with him almost guaranteed to take wickets and keep things pretty tidy plus 6 front line batsmen .

It's an interesting discussion this; there are many credible spin options out there, I don't buy into the "cupboard is bare" line which is being spouted by many of the more cynical followers of the game, but the fact is that few of them are getting county overs under their belts on helpful surfaces.

Of the "proteges" of the last few years, in this I include Borthwick, Rashid and Briggs, only the latter can be said to be an integral member of his county's attack. Borthwick and Rashid both averaged in excess of 45 last year and, especially in the case of Borthwick, are underbowled by their counties this year. Briggs is enjoying a good Fc year but remains a young man learning his game in the longer format.

The same, in my opinion, should be said of Riley and Patel, bowlers of promise and skill but very little experience.the county championship, ideally with pitches which offer them some incentive of learning how to attack as well as contain over four days, Is the place for them at present.

Spinners get better with age but at no point will a knackered mule turn into a stallion. For that reason alone I can't entertain the thought of Gareth Batty returning to test cricket.

For the here and now, if England are to select a front line spinner, it has to be Kerrigan. He has the best record (50 odd wickets at 25 last year, an average of 34 this season) of recent times and, most importantly, is trusted by his county captain to bowl long spells and in high pressure situations. He is a key member of lancashire's formula and I find it hard to countenance picking someone that is not integral in their role at county level.

Having waffled on through that, I wouldn't be picking Kerrigan at Lords. India are not a side to cut a test spinner's teeth on, especially on a track which won't turn. If he plays in this series it should be at Old Trafford or the Oval. I'd stick with the four seamers for this series before bringing him in, alongside Moeen and 3 seamers, in the Caribbean.

I have already stated my preference - as a "least worst" solution - for the four quicks plus Ali for this series. However I agree this won't be for the long term .
I am not sure who the best option might be , and I don't think anyone else is either , so selection for West Indies will be something of a gamble ; hope they take a couple of younger prospects , rather than go back to a "safe" option like Tredwell. No disrespect to West Indies but that tour strikes me as the best chance for a young spinner to put his foot in the water. Kerrigan , Riley , Borthwick ?

Incidentally , Swann makes a good point re Borthwick : he badly needs more bowling in the County game - so he needs to get away from Durham.

This week I reckon it is still down to Ali.

Between Borthwick and Ali the latter is the better choice any day. Borthwick bowls far too many lose stuff to consider him anything more than a parttimer who can bowl a few overs. Ali isn't a regular frontline spinner, but like say JP Duminy, he can be a regular parttimer. Besides, Ali is a proper batsman.
Both are not the solutions really.......

Eng will pay the price of fiddling around with spinner.....no one will bring any more value to Eng than Ali with the ball....which should be not understood as  "Ali is  as good as any"...but rather as "others will be as ineffective as Ali"

and none of them can bat like Moeen Ali for sure...that match saving 100 in headingley.

the exception is only if they bring Panesar......regardless of the allegations against him.
why ?? because I can see he is better.....
and if my word isn't enough.......Dravid said so on air that he and the Indian team believes Monty is the highest quality spinner in Eng.

but this is Eng..... their highest quality fast bowler and best batsman are also sitting out   

and Captain Weasel has been told by some neo-management gurus that he must stamp his authority...so he has decided to do so by announcing. to bring in Kerrigan...why ??? because Kerrigan is bowling well in the nets is what he says 

Monty Panesar has been dropped by a Division 2 side for poor form.

GSC wrote:Monty Panesar has been dropped by a Division 2 side for poor form.

he is being targetted.......it has been evident many immigrant background turned brits are being targeted with an ultra-high expectation on behavior, discipline, how to talk and walk etc etc.....

Trott was another one......treated like a beast of burden by ECB inspite of knowing he had a mental illness till he broke down beyond fixing

KP......the man who  Strauss, Flower and Eng owe half of their wins to....his shambolic treatment is of epic proportions

Boyd Rankin.....stolen, mishandled and god knows dumped where

and Ali...if he is dumped here god forbid......he might breakdown...and then his breakdown will be used as an example to hang him..

while the favored children of ECB.......p.i.ss on pitches, curse on camera, send bitter messages on twitter, bite their teammates in books......and get away scot free

No idea what you're smoking but I want some

This is a reach even by your standards

I agree KP was treated bad, but that's just to do with English crickets old fashioned upper class attitude rather than his nationality.

KP_fan wrote:

GSC wrote:Monty Panesar has been dropped by a Division 2 side for poor form.

he is being targetted.......it has been evident many immigrant background turned brits are being targeted with an ultra-high expectation on behavior, discipline, how to talk and walk etc etc.....

Trott was another one......treated like a beast of burden by ECB inspite of knowing he had a mental illness till he broke down beyond fixing

KP......the man who  Strauss, Flower and Eng owe half of their wins to....his shambolic treatment is of epic proportions

Boyd Rankin.....stolen, mishandled and god knows dumped where

and Ali...if he is dumped here god forbid......he might breakdown...and then his breakdown will be used as an example to hang him..

while the favored children of ECB.......p.i.ss on pitches, curse on camera, send bitter messages on twitter, bite their teammates in books......and get away scot free

Were you reading the Guardian before pulling the race card? #curious

Welcome to the internet, where anybody can make up rubbish as if it were true I guess.

I suppose he's conveniently forgot Monty Panesar p!ssing on a bouncer!

Wee weeing on a bouncer is a term of endearment where Montys from I heard #freemonty #montyforenglandessex

Maybe give Briggs a try at his home ground for the 3rd Test....   

GSC wrote:Wee weeing on a bouncer is a term of endearment where Montys from I heard #freemonty #montyforenglandessex

What? Luton?

You're probably not wrong there...

I thought Birmingham for some reason.

Analyses for a couple of bowlers after day 2 of the Champo match between Surrey and Kent at Guildford - green top, wicket holding up well, fast outfield, small ground.

Gareth Batty 17-3-48-2
Adam Riley 4-0-31-0.

That doesn't mean for a moment that Batty could spin us single handed to a series win over India. Indeed, I note that one serious poster has likened him to "a knackered mule" and I readily admit to being more than disappointed by his failure to take wickets in some CC matches where conditions appeared in his favour. However, I am more coming round to Alec Stewart's view that if we want a slow bowler with "nous and experience" to hold up an end as a short term option then it's not a totally daft idea.

Morning all.

Yes, the spin conundrum. Well at the risk of restating the obvious there is no clear solution, and each solution has its problems.

It is a real shame about Panesar, who would have been ideal and should really be entering his prime. I really don't understand how England or the England set-up can be blamed for his downfall - what happened to personnal responsibility? what happened to taking ownership of your game? Steve Finn gave a wonderfully insightful and open interview recently in which he comes across as clearly understanding his problems, accepting them and going away and working them out. Until Panesar can do the same thing (and it isn't easy, and may very well never happen)... The issue is not only his off-field troubles; he has also been below average on the field. He bowled absolute rubbish at the MCG in his last test.

Alfie says Borthwick should get away from Durham. I said this 2 or 3 years ago and nothing has changed my mind since. It may well be too late now - whilst Borthwick remains young, his formative years are over. History suggests that leg-spinners tend to learn their graft early, and refine it later. Borthwick has not as of yet finished learning his graft, and history is littered with similar examples like Smith, Cameron White et al who started out as promising leg-spinners and ended up at best as useful part-timers. Durham is of course not a good place to learn to bowl leg-spin (containing off-spin at a pinch) and England probably should have encouraged Borthwick to leave, but then again Borthwick should also have been aware enough to make that decision for himself.

In terms of the other youngsters being floated about, I haven't seen Riley bowl much to my shame. I'd be interested to hear any reports. I've seen a bit of Ravi Patel at Middlesex, although not this year. He seems ok, gets decent action on the ball and good loop, but I think may bowl a bit slowly. Briggs I've been a fan of, I think he naturally understands the game and which pace/line/length to bowl, but he hasn't convinced me in ODIs. Kerrigan seems to have bounced back from his nightmare debut, and may well be the best of the youngsters at the moment. Whether that means he should be picked now is a different question.

I think Hoggy summed up the 3 options quite nicely. Like guildford I am not a fan of going into a test match without a specialist spinner. Moeen Ali is a decent part-time spinner but bowls a lot of bad balls, and occasionally bowls completely the wrong ball at the wrong time. I can understand where England are coming from but in the long term it's not a viable strategy, unless they feel that Moeen could develop into a genuine international spinner. I think it's a bit late for that personally.

Normally I would say give a youngster a go and stick to it. In this case I am not so sure this is the right call, purely because whilst Kerrigan is IMO the better of the 4 options discussed now, I'm not sure he will be in a year, maybe 2 year's time. If you want to invest in a youngster, you probably should make sure you are investing in the right one.

I said at the start of the summer England should pick Tredwell (I guess given how the season has gone it would now have to be Batty) as a stop-gap and invest in the youth over the winter, figure out who of Kerrigan et al is worth investing in and go with that.

I'm not so sure that's the best strategy though anymore. Partly this is down to circumstances: in my mind Stokes was going to bat 6 (where I thought at times he played genuinely very well in the ashes), and then with a returning Prior at 7 you could pick 4 bowlers. I don't think England can go into a test with just 3 seamers and a spinner at the moment, so Batty would probably have to come in for a batsman, probably Ali. That would mean Stokes at 6 and either novice Buttler or a non-batting keeper at 7.

If you are going to take such a risk, it seems to me you may as well go the whole hog and pick the youngster.

Probably Kerrigan then. Just. But I'm glad I don't have to make that call.

Mike - good post building on those from Hoggy and others, highlighting the difficulties with the various options and probably proving there is no ideal solution.

Batty would be my call but with considerable unease. I would also retain Moeen as batsman / second spinner; like Mike, not (yet) convinced but believe he's done enough to at least merit the rest of this series.  I would even consider moving him up to number 4 and dropping Bell. Like most of the Sky commentators, my team though will still consist of about 12 or 13 players!

I saw Riley yesterday. Unfair to judge him on only 4 expensive overs but that won't entirely stop me. He was prepared to give the ball flight from the start but overdid it and got clobbered by the wonderfully in form and matured Roy. In essence, I liked the look of him and his approach but he needed to be more streetwise. That should come with experience but not for this India series.

Not sure about Briggs. I've seen him a couple of times this season. Seemed to be pushing the ball through too quickly. Picked up 2 or 3 wickets late on both times but only after damage had been done at quite an expensive rate.

Haven't seen this season the others mentioned by Mike.