"European Tour criticised for playing on despite death of caddie on course"

Terrible news, but thought the european tours reaction warranted some discussion

Here are some reactions summarized in the Guardian;

Guardian wrote:The European Tour suffered condemnation from its own membership after the final round of the Madeira Islands Open was allowed to continue despite the death of a caddie.

Iain McGregor, who was working for the Scot Alastair Forsyth, collapsed on the 9th fairway with a suspected heart attack and died a short time later. Following a suspension in play and discussion with players and caddies, the Tour resumed the final round of the competition. It seemed an insensitive move, as others were quick to recognise.

The move sparked a fierce backlash in some quarters. "Can't believe that they are sending out players to finish the 2nd and final round when someone just died on the course," tweeted the Swedish golfer Joel Sjöholm.

The Finn Mikko Ilonen posted: "Call it off NOW European Tour. Have some respect please."

Jean-Baptiste Gonnet and Pablo Larrazabal continued on this theme. Gonnet said: "Can't believe there are still playing in Madeira. There is no respect anymore. How you can even walk on the 9th fairway?"

Larrazabal added: "Cant believe they are going to keep playing in Madeira. Life is more important than golf."

In their own statement, the European Tour said: "Everyone at the European Tour extends our deepest sympathies to the friends and family of Iain at this time. Following consultation with the players and caddies involved, however, it has been decided that play should continue and the tournament should finish.

"A minute's silence has taken place at the clubhouse and play resumed at 6.00pm local time."

McGregor, a Zimbabwean, would have celebrated his 53rd birthday on Monday. Forsyth defended the decision to play on, saying: "Everybody is in shock. To see that happen to someone in front of your eyes – I don't know how or when you get over that.

"Myself and playing partners Adam (Gee) and Tano (Goya) met tournament officials and spoke to George O'Grady on the phone before taking the decision to play on, because we felt that was what Mac would have wanted.

"He was a guy I've known for 15 years and was very popular amongst the caddies. Obviously my thoughts go out to his family at this time. For something like this to happen so suddenly is so sad.

"He was far too young for this to happen. He was the life and soul of the caddies' lounge and a nice guy who will be sorely missed. I'm absolutely numb."

John Huggan tweeted this a moment ago

John Huggan ‏@johnhuggan wrote:Have now slept on my reaction to what happened in Madeira yesterday. Still can't get my head round what they were all thinking by playing on

And also this from another caddie I presume?

Magic ‏@Magicmoments66 wrote:friend died today doing the job he loved, caddying in Madeira.
They are still playing the tournament. Retweet if u think this is wrong!

Also claims there was no defibrillator on site and retweeted much support for his position https://twitter.com/Magicmoments66



Regardless of whether the event should have gone ahead does anyone else find it very odd that Forsyth bothered to tee it up again given he had no chance of a decent finish?

Is it easy for those not playing to say they would not have teed it up again? In the month of the 20th anniversary of Senna and Ratzenbergers deaths we are reminded that sport does not have a history of stopping for the death of competitors. Although as far as I know all the football matched in the last few years that involving a players death were stopped.

So what do you folks make of what went on and is this another case of O'Grady failing to do the right thing for the tour?

Some more tweets

Simon Khan ‏@simonkhangolf wrote:
Show some respect @EuropeanTour play carries on in Madeira after Mac dies on 9th tee . Unbelievable

from telegraph golf writer

James Corrigan ‏@jcorrigangolf (telegraph golf writer) wrote:
It's always about the money in golf. Disgusting to continue playing a tournament after a caddie has died on a fairway

Not a pleasant situation, don't think there's really a right or wrong answer here either.

No doubt many would find it understandably uncomfortable and awkward to play on.

If those that genuinely knew the guy well and assert that his wish would have been for the event to carry on then they would find it awkward and uncomfortable not to.

"A bit of respect" vs "Life goes on" No matter what way O'Grady had jumped on this one he would have taken stick.

Does seem a little unsavoury - however as JAS says, why second guess the people who were most involved and affected?

The event had been shortened to 36 holes anyway. To cancel it would have been fine. Sometimes sport needs to see the bigger picture.

Can't see the issue really. Could have gone either way. The important thing was the discussions and the obviously supported decision to carry on. TBH, I find it typical these days that many of those that weren't there were bleating on about how 'disgusting' it is. Give it a rest.

If it's true, however, that there was no defib available, I find that a whole lot more reprehensible of the Tour organisation. That, however, is not what all the bleeding hearts are banging on about though is it? We even have a couple at our course ffs.

You have ~10 mins after an attack to get some serious help on board, inc. defib. It's not long, but there should be both qualified paramedics available and defibs to get help to someone within a few minutes, at most, at an event like that. Fabrice Muamba shows what can be done if you're quick enough.

nbs ... agree with you on the defibrillator.  Totally gobsmacked if it's true.  I doubt Bernard Gallacher would be too impressed either!  

Still, as you say, speed is of the essence and golf courses are not the most accessible of places.

A guy died at one of my clubs on the first tee a week after he'd paid his subs.
Not sure if the club kept it, although being a Scottish club, probably did.

gaelgowfer wrote:nbs ... agree with you on the defibrillator.  Totally gobsmacked if it's true.  I doubt Bernard Gallacher would be too impressed either!  

Still, as you say, speed is of the essence and golf courses are not the most accessible of places.

The other query I have is about the people who were there who had CPR training. Surely there were enough Tour people close enough??? The defib training I've had was very clear in that paramedics don't get most people back, even with state-of-the-art kit, because by the time they've arrived no-one has performed even basically competent CPR and, typically, it takes a medic more than 10 mins to get wherever they're needed.
Still, they may not have been able to save him even if they were quick enough and the right interventions had occurred.

nbs ... or, as Vinnie Jones would say ... "Hard and fast!" (dancing is optional)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILxjxfB4zNk

1).Sure they'll re-look at medical preparedness, but:
2).I think they were right to carry on playing. Where do you draw the line? Would it have been OK if he'd've died in the car park or on the range (didn't Bert Yancey die like that warming up for a Senior event?) but not on the course?

I can't imagine any caddie wanting an event cancelled on his behalf.

kwinigolfer wrote:1).Sure they'll re-look at medical preparedness, but:
2).I think they were right to carry on playing. Where do you draw the line? Would it have been OK if he'd've died in the car park or on the range (didn't Bert Yancey die like that warming up for a Senior event?) but not on the course?

kwini, the tournament had already been reduced to 36 holes due to weather problems so I rather think appeasing the sponsor may have had a lot to do with carrying on.  Still, I think Forysth should have withdrawn or have been allowed to withdraw.

A nice gesture would be for all the players to donate 50% of their winnings to his family.

gael,
I understand the situation, just offering my opinion.
As said yesterday, I think my neighbor (middle-aged Zimbabwean who caddied on the E.T.) knows this guy so I'll be interested to see what he makes of it.

Quite a personal decision and suppose I'm surprised that no-one withdrew. But I think the Tour was right that the show went on.

It seems to me that the person closest to him, Forsyth, should really be the one to make the decision. Given that he said yes and discussed it with the guys who were there too I would say that it was the best decision.

Must have been a pretty impossible decision to make so this must make it worse.

As for the defibrillator, I'm surprised that there was not one at the course as if there is anywhere full of people who could need it, a golf course is it. But even if there was one, it sounds that it is more important to have good first aiders there.

It seems from what I can piece together that the tour sought Forsyths opinion, found his opinion to be advantageous to the "show must go on" philosophy and told the rest of the field they must continue.  Depriving the caddies, and presumably Mac's friends to continue whether they wanted to or not.

In particular see this blog
http://www.golfcentraldaily.com/2014/05/growing-anger-over-european-tour.html


One player did refuse to play on, Peter Lawrie
http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/5/11/lawrie-retires-as-mark-of-respect-as-caddie-pal-dies-suddenly


Also, can anyone identify a defibrillator from these photos?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2626283/Golfer-defends-decision-carry-playing-caddie-dropped-dead-course.html


I am not sure the argument of playing on to respect the deceased wishes is valid when it seems that did play were forced to do so, and in a rushed manner in order to finish an event already suffering from scheduling difficulties.

McLaren wrote:It seems from what I can piece together that the tour sought Forsyths opinion, found his opinion to be advantageous to the "show must go on" philosophy and told the rest of the field they must continue.  Depriving the caddies, and presumably Mac's friends to continue whether they wanted to or not.

In particular see this blog
http://www.golfcentraldaily.com/2014/05/growing-anger-over-european-tour.html


One player did refuse to play on, Peter Lawrie
http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/5/11/lawrie-retires-as-mark-of-respect-as-caddie-pal-dies-suddenly


Also, can anyone identify a defibrillator from these photos?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2626283/Golfer-defends-decision-carry-playing-caddie-dropped-dead-course.html


I am not sure the argument of playing on to respect the deceased wishes is valid when it seems that did play were forced to do so, and in a rushed manner in order to finish an event already suffering from scheduling difficulties.

I'm sure if somebody could "nip upstairs" and ask...The Caddie would probably say that he wouldn't want Poopie stirring on golf forums over the decision about whether or not to play on....sometimes it's better just to leave the hobby horse in the corner Mac!!

How exactly were they "forced" to play on? Lawrie didn't .. are you suggesting there was some sort of punishment hanging over them if they withdrew?

It seems to me that they all had the w/d option .. many of the people complaining about this are those who weren't actually playing anyway. Has anyone come out against it who was playing and felt "forced" to continue? Shame on THEM I say if they continued against their wishes!

Davie

It is possible to feel pressured into something without being explicitly told to do something.


Jas

Would have thought the ET's failure to deal with a pretty important issue was worthy of discussion?

What are we allowed to discuss?

Well if that's the case Mac then as I said .. shame on THEM. Have the courage of your convictions or put up and shut up

McLaren wrote:It seems from what I can piece together that the tour sought Forsyths opinion, found his opinion to be advantageous to the "show must go on" philosophy and told the rest of the field they must continue.  Depriving the caddies, and presumably Mac's friends to continue whether they wanted to or not.

In particular see this blog
http://www.golfcentraldaily.com/2014/05/growing-anger-over-european-tour.html


One player did refuse to play on, Peter Lawrie
http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/5/11/lawrie-retires-as-mark-of-respect-as-caddie-pal-dies-suddenly


Also, can anyone identify a defibrillator from these photos?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2626283/Golfer-defends-decision-carry-playing-caddie-dropped-dead-course.html


I am not sure the argument of playing on to respect the deceased wishes is valid when it seems that did play were forced to do so, and in a rushed manner in order to finish an event already suffering from scheduling difficulties.

Forced to go on?? What??? Where is the evidence that they were forced to go on?? Even if someone from the Tour actually said "the show must go on", that's hardly a mandate to force players out to play is it?
For the players etc who weren't there - shut up with the bleating. Those that were there - have the balls to make your own decisions and stop blaming others if you now, in retrospect, feel you made the wrong decision to play on.

A quote from your blog, above (my highlights):

"I'm not a journalist, just a lowly blogger and haven't got the Tour's side of this, but am just relaying what I was told."

So. Not a journalist, more of a rumour monger and Chinese whisper believer then?

Peter Lawrie decides not to play on. Whoa! Entirely up to him. If that's what he thinks best. Obviously, not many (no-one?) else thought the same.

No. There's no obvious defib in those photos but then they're hardly looking in the right direction are they? The one where there absolutely would have been is that showing the ambulance from about 200 yards away.

McLaren wrote:Would have thought the ET's failure to deal with a pretty important issue was worthy of discussion?

Which is what's happening. 'Elf and Safety is almost always 20/20 hindsight. A man died. It happens. I'm sure that if there weren't enough CPR trained people to hand and no defib near enough then, in the future, there will be. Maybe the Tour should make it mandatory that all players and caddies competing in their events are up-to-date with CPR/first aid? After all, they're the ones instantly to hand if someone collapses....

It's quite some step to suggest that a body (i.e. the Tour) have been seriously derelict in their duties. If you have a look around your own workplace Mac, can you spot all the impending health hazards that might be in existence? Maybe the Tour might, on reflection, consider that it might have been best to abandon the event - who knows? Maybe it might have been better for all the social media addicts (has anyone read Poulter's thoughts on this? Must say, not sure we can have a definitive feeling without that) to have approached the Tour privately if they were so exercised by what happened instead of firing off emotional drivel into the aether?

The more social media becomes part of the everyday world, the more I think I hate it. Everyone is so emotional and strident, demanding action without putting their brains into action for a second. Oooo! Quick! Need to tweet some piece of bilge that wouldn't qualify for a 'thought' in most other circumstances.

It's not a universally held view that the ET failed to deal with an important issue. In fact, they did deal with it, but some people didn't like the course of action they picked (me included) out of two broad options, although I guess it's easier to judge after, than decide during. Perhaps it was one of those "you had to be there" moments.

Navy

You are mistaking opinions other people have put forward for mine. I linked those articles to show that not everyone is particularly happy about the way the ET dealt with this.

Who cares what anyone else thought? It's the ET's decision based on consultation with the players involved.
It's no one else's business.

McLaren wrote:Navy

You are mistaking opinions other people have put forward for mine.  I linked those articles to show that not everyone is particularly happy about the way the ET dealt with this.  

Not really Mac. When did I do that? If I was a betting man I might think your own feelings tend toward those that think play should have been halted but I'm shooting at your quoted sources and other stuff, in general. Don't take it personally   .

Super

The point a lot of people seem to be making (not me, I have no idea about the facts) is that the players did not feel properly consulted.  

Find me a quote other than from forsyth where a player or caddie supports the decision to continue?



Navy

I am undecided about what should have happened as the facts are a little lacking at the moment. I have a feeling the players are not happy and that is all I can conclude.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2626283/Golfer-defends-decision-carry-playing-caddie-dropped-dead-course.html

there's a quote Mac.

The fact that the most linked to source on this thread is the daily nazi tells you everything you need to know.

Super

That quotes forsyth. I said other than him.

McLaren wrote:.. to show that not everyone is particularly happy about ..

To be read in the voice of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons: "Most redundant statement ever"

Ach, who cares, The decision was always going to be open to disagreement.

Mac,
What's different about this sad incident and the Bert Yancey death?
The show went on then, and it's surely quite right that it did in Madeira - any withdrawals for personal reasons quite understandable, just as they are for other circumstances.

Trouble is Kwini, you have the Respect Police out there these days. No one knows exactly who they are, but they're there alright. Perish the thought you might pay your respects in another way/time than when the Respect Police decree that one should.

McLaren wrote:

In particular see this blog
http://www.golfcentraldaily.com/2014/05/growing-anger-over-european-tour.html

What the hell is this blog? What utter drivel, this really illustrates the problem with social media today. Essentially this is the kind of stuff people spout out down the pub, but because it is captured in a "blog" it becomes a quotable source and has a sense of authority.

Kwini

As I pointed out to Navy I have provided these links to show what the golf community has to say on the incident. So not my opinion.

It seems to be a consensus so far - in terms of those that have gone - public that players/caddies/journalists feel the event should have been stopped.


I have no idea what they think should have happened. Monday finish or no finish at all?

Seems Mac that people feel the need to be seen to having a reaction.

Providing a link is credentialising a point of view that is uninformed and sensationalist.

It's about as valid a contribution to society as the endless celebrity blogs bitching about famous women after someone has captured an unflattering photo of them.

It's not the first time someone has died during a golf tournament and it surely won't be the last.
Time to make sure there are proper medical facilites/expertise available, but get on with it.
Some of the guys that are now criticizing the decision to carry on are the very same blokes who made a personal decision to play on. Including the journalists.

Load of fuss just for the sake of it. Pity it overshadows the first tournament in Europe this year.

One thing that I thought was pretty silly in the blog was the bloke who seemed to think that the course was a death trap because it was so hilly. To be fair, if you are struggling to carry a bag of golf clubs around 18 holes you really shouldn't be working as a caddie.

I'm surprised that their was no defibrilator. Not sure if anyone has mentioned it earlier on this thread, but you would expect every golf club to have one given the number of coffin dodgers out playing golf.

Not just for the lard arse and unfit players, given the shambolic condition of golf "fans" you would think there would be better first aid provision.
"Lessons to be learnt" will be the tagline from this I would imagine.

I'm surprised more people don't expire at these events. Happens all the time on club courses.

s_r,
They probably do (expire at these events), just doesn't make such a good story as when an actual participant pegs it.
Coincidentally, this week is the 33rd anniversary of something that robopz and I, coincidentally again, both witnessed, which is a tree branch falling on a spectator and killing him.
In Dallas and with a Who's Who of the golfing elite at the time on hand, Trevino among those who saw what we did; one or two others, I think Bob Gilder and George Burns, very close to the incident.
It wasn't immediately obvious that the casualty was dead, but he was clearly in a very bad way. The play continued and I helped push the ambulance back up a rain-soaked fairway. What a mess.

Would think medical emergencies happen almost every week; bound to be a few fatalities among them.

Fuss about something.We had a spectator die during the Leicester Doncaster match last week.
This just makes a good news story.Sad business but correct decision in my opinion.

As someone else said .. offense by proxy. Terribly sad but that's what the world is like

You get a football or rugby match where there are only 22 participants and the whole crowd, be it 2,000 or 80,000 are watching .. and I can understand it .. but this is a different scenario

As I said earlier, anyone and everyone who felt the need to jack it in would be perfectly in their rights, and should not feel bad about it .. but for the other 60-70 competitors and thousands of spectators who had no idea what happened .. the show goes on. I'd bet a fair amount of money that the 99% of people who didn't witness it, wouldn't want it to be cancelled while still feeling sorry for the guy and his family. I'd also hazard a guess the caddie himself wouldn't worry and neither would his family - those that continued payed worthy tributes to the poor guy .. end of story

Davie may have given the order that it is "end of story" but for those still interested in what the players wanted to happen, here is more reasonable and better sourced article;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/may/13/european-tour-madeira-restart-iain-mcgregor-death?CMP=twt_gu

Seems clear George O'Grady told the players to finish tournament. Whether you think they should have continued or not, it seems players were left feeling like they didn't have a choice.

I wonder why Mac considers this a more reasonable and better sourced article? Apart from it backing up his opinion - does that make it reasonable? It's only an opinion piece after all and nothing more than a blog from a Guardian journalist. Hardly much in the way of fact - just indignant opinion

McLaren wrote:Davie may have given the order that it is "end of story" but for those still interested in what the players wanted to happen, here is more reasonable and better sourced article;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/may/13/european-tour-madeira-restart-iain-mcgregor-death?CMP=twt_gu

Seems clear George O'Grady told the players to finish tournament.  Whether you think they should have continued or not, it seems players were left feeling like they didn't have a choice.

"Seems clear"? Not to me. One golfer quoted as saying they were "told by the tournament director" - yet another says "His (O'Grady's) opinion was we should go ahead"

Not that clear

And to compare to football and the Muamba incident is ridiculous. Totally different scenarios. I don't know where Forsyth was in the field but we know the tragedy happened on the 9th hole; so some golfers may have finished already, others may not have started, and the majority of them would have been 100s of yards away, probably oblivious to what happened. The author states that the tournament should have been canceled as was the Bolton/Spurs match but a better analogy would have been "should a match at Anfield be called off because of something that happened in Bolton"?

I see Pablito Larrazabal is encouraging all to wear black at tomorrow's Round 1 of the Spanish Open.
Very appropriate tribute and it would be good if E.T. members in Dallas showed the same sentiment.

The story in cartoon form;

Herald Sun Cartoon:

Poor taste or a fair reflection of events?

Beyond poor taste; plumbing new depths, even for Australia.

McLaren wrote:The story in cartoon form;

Herald Sun Cartoon:

Poor taste or a fair reflection of events?

I think it's fair enough. I've a friend who is critically ill right now, drifting between recovery and close to death on an almost weekly basis for the last six months. We make light of it as friends, and even if he doesn't make it, I think we'll still be light hearted about it. He and we as friends all want it that way.