Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Dave Kearney looks to be injured. Why risk him if so?

Squad is announced tomorrow.

I know Marshall isn't in great form but I would bring him anyway as I think he is a young lad who could do with soaking up any ideas Schmidt may have.

I think leaving POC and Heaslip at home would be a mistake as we need leaders built into the pack to give the new lads some stability. For instance Marmion could benefit hugely from having Heaslip at 8 and perhaps Moore could benefit from having POC scrum behind him.

Maybe bring both but bench one for one game and the other for the other game, that may be the wisest course of action. Realistically we need more cover at 8 than lock which for the first time in a while is looking ok with all of Tuohy, Toner and Henderson all doing pretty well.

I think resting Ross, Healy, Sexton, Kearney Sr and possibly Darcy would be wise options.

Finally, as well as playing a new 13 (which is simply crucial), I think it pretty important that someone else gets gametime at 15 as right now if Kearney was injured we don't have a definite second choice (Zebo/Payne/Henshaw/Kearney Jr?)

Priorities:

1) A new 13
2) Gametime for Marmion
3) Gametime for a back up fullback
4) Gametime for a back up 8
5) Gametime for McGrath and Moore
6) Resting Sexton, Healy and some key others

Squad announced today, getting pretty excited

Forwards (16)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 75
James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster) *
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) *
Iain Henderson (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 10
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 14
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) 65
Rob Herring (Ballinahinch/Ulster) *
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 8
Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 8
Marty Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 2
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 92
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 39
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 2
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 15
Damian Varley (Garryowen/Munster) 2

Backs (14)

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 5
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 39
Robbie Henshaw (Buccanneers/Connacht) 3
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 9
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 5
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 54
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) *
Luke Marshall (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 5
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 26
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 27
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 54
Johnny Sexton (Racing Metro) 43
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 55
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 6

IRELAND 2014 Argentina Tour Squad:

Forwards (16)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 75

James Cronin (Dolpin/Munster) *

Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) *

Iain Henderson (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 10

Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 14

Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) 65

Rob Herring (Ballinahinch/Ulster) *

Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 8

Jack McGrath (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 8

Marty Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) 5

Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 2

Paul O’Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 92

Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 39

Rhys Ruddock (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 2

Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 15

Damian Varley (Garryowen/Munster) 2

Backs (14)

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 5

Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 39

Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 3

Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 9

Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 5

Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 54

Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) *

Luke Marshall (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 5

Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 26

Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 27

Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 54

Johnny Sexton (Racing Metro) 43

Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 55

Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 6

*Denotes uncapped player

The absence of Sean Cronin is interesting.

Joe says Sean O'Brien and Tommy Bowe need rest, hence they are not included.

No Madigan either...and cant understand why Felix Jones is in...

No Gordon D'Arcy, Sean Cronin, Tommy Bowe, Sean O'Brien, Cian Healy, Isaac Boss or Ian Madigan.

I'm quite excited to see us try a back line without the safety blanket of D'Arcy. I was worried they would err on the side of experience, as we so often do in this country, but we're stepping into a brave new era on this tour with neither O'Driscoll or D'Arcy involved.

The centres will come from Darren Cave, Luke Marshall and Robbie Henshaw. Seems like the latter two to start with Cave covering both 12 and 13. Bring on the brave new world...

Will the Argentinians put out a strong side or will it be their B team..

I expect us to name;

1. Jack McGrath
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. Iain Henderson
5. Paul O'Connell (c)
6. Rhys Ruddock
7. Chris Henry
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Conor Murray
10. Johnny Sexton
11. Simon Zebo
12. Luke Marshall
13. Robbie Henshaw
14. Andrew Trimble
15. Rob Kearney

16. Damien Varley 17. Dave Kilcoyne 18. Martin Moore 19. Devin Toner 20. Jordi Murphy 21. Eoin Reddan 22. Paddy Jackson 23. Keith Earls

Maybe a bit of wishful thinking re. Henderson over Toner. Those two might swap as might Ross and Moore. Pretty sure on the rest.

ME-109 wrote:Will the Argentinians put out a strong side or will it be their B team..

I heard they are resting ALL their big guns, so I'm guessing it will be similar enough to the one that played England last year which was made up of mostly semi pros.

Where is Copeland???

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Will the Argentinians put out a strong side or will it be their B team..

I heard they are resting ALL their big guns, so I'm guessing it will be similar enough to the one that played England last year which was made up of mostly semi pros.

hmm...on a hiding to nothing then...

I guess the object of the exercise is to find a new OC as I fully believe Darcy is still No.1 as IC.

I don't think it's a question of them resting their big guns as much as the French and English not releasing their Argentinian players until after the playoff finals.

It was in one of the papers last week that their squad will be made up of home players and  the less known players from England and France.

And as asked above where's Copeland??

Not involved is where Copeland is. Clearly there is the starting back row (Ruddock, Henry, Heaslip) and then there are two guys in Robbie Diack and Jordi Murphy who are very versatile and can slot in in a number of different positions, so are useful off the bench.

What I think we should do if Argentina are missing players is only start O'Connell, Sexton and Ross in one game each and bench them for the other. Try and give guys more game time in those key positions. Henderson, Moore and Jackson could get a lot out of this trip.

Sean O'Brien needs rest............?

Now that's an attractive package... of sweet smelling bullshyte. But spin is the flavour of the century so sprinkle it on heavily I suppose.

Healy is on the Atkins diet too I see lately? What's the spin on that? He's auditioning for a Summer Romcom lead in a girlie movie with Jennifer Aniston?

Gees no pleasing some people - its a short tour so Joe can't take everyone.

I'm happy enough with that squad - it should build a bit more depth and clearly the priority is to look at a few midfield options.

Some guys need a rest and a good pre-season. Good shout Joe.

Glad to see Herring, Diack and Cave get a chance. Varley has earned a shot too.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/schmidt-player-management-behind-big-name-omissions-30285643.html

I do think having a break for guys who have had injury niggles could make all the difference for us next season. Ian Madigan isn't in that group though; I'd say if he wants to be sure of being a part of future Ireland squads he needs to sort out his Leinster form.

I'm quite happy for O'Brien to burn a few burgers on the barbi over a few cans of beer on a black cloudy showery Summer break.... it's just the 'need' part that's plum comical.

Paulie perhaps 'needs'.  Sexton probably 'needs'.  Even flash harry of the year so far, Trimble, might 'need'.

It's the lingo (if such lingo was indeed used about O'Brien) not the act of unchoosing him that I find funny.

Can't quibble too much with the selection - not sure though what Felix Jones has done to get a place on the plane. Madigan can have no complaint at missing out - before his half hour of excellence on Saturday, he has done nothing all season, not all his own fault with MOC having a lot to answer for.

Hope Henderson, wee PJ and Marmion get some decent game time. Have no faith though in Reddan as reserve SH and we need to get Marmion up and running ahead of the WC.

BTW..back to my Healy allusion.  Has it been mentioned or noticed here over the last few weeks about Healy, his size?  To me he seems to have genuinely lost a ton or two (okay that's a literary licence of exaggeration for the hard of hearing! ).  
If he has lost weight then it's a sign of the new scientific fitness and conditioning regime kicking in, and it being streamlined for individual players based on what Schmidt intends to do with all the new shapes and body fat restructuring he'll have at his disposal towards the WC.

Exciting times.... OR........another deflated bunch of tyres come the end of 2015.. 

Props: Cronin, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Moore, Ross
Hookers: Best, Herring, Varley
Locks: POC, Toner, Henderson,
Backrow: Diack, Henry, Heaslip, Murphy, Ruddock

9: Murray, Marmion, Reddan
10: Sexton, Jackson
Centre: Cave, Marshall, Henshaw
Back 3: Earls, Zebo, Kearney, Trimble, Jones, McFadden


Pretty good overall. Really happy with most of it after a bit of digestion, just a few things.

1) With no Strauss I would have brought Cronin but giving others time isn't a bad call either.
2) Hope Ross gets pretty minimal gametime for his sake.
3) Think lock and backrow calls are spot on and very astute.
4) Delighted Marmion is there and hope he gets gametime.
5) Personally I'd have rested Sexton but blooding midfield options could do with "the" flyhalf.
6) Hope Henshaw gets the lions share of 13.
7) Was hoping to see Zebo at 15 but looks unlikely now. Gutted that Jones is in, he went to my school and is a nice lad but as a player I think since his most recent serious injury he has looked seriously poor. Don't rate him anymore, he used to be an attacking player who could create something now his counters seem to run into brick walls and he kicks heavily. Would prefer to see Zebo in there big time as I think he could do some serious damage from deep. Maybe Joe sees Payne as a 15 and nada more, not sure.

My ideal first test team would be:

McGrath-Best-Moore
Toner-POC
Ruddock-Heaslip-Henry
Murray-Sexton
Marshall-Henshaw
Zebo-Jones-Earls

Varley-Kilcoyne-Ross-Henderson-Murphy-Marmion-Jackson-Trimble

1) With the first choice lock pairing I've gone for experimentation in the two props, both have shown massive class.
2) Balanced backrow, with versatility on the bench.
3) Experienced halfbacks to guide inexperienced and unfamiliar centres.
4) Back 3 chosen due to it's familiarity as unit (helping the newer centres) and to blood others into Joe's systems. Class and solidity on the bench.

A dull selection for a dull summer tour. Ah no the squad is ok except why is Jones there? and this was a good chance to give Copeland a run out.

But this really is not a tour to look forward to. It would have been nice to play the USA or Canada aswell as ARG will be without their best players.

Crazy back three selection there Pete. You slate Jones and then put a back three with him in but no Rob Kearney or Andy Trimble?

Has the 'emerging' squad been picked?

Jones is the only other specialist full back available and if its a sign Henshaw will be played at centre then its a good call.

O'Brien isn't fit enough to play 80min at Leinster and is back ahead of schedule so why in BODs name would you risk him by taking him on tour? He needs to get fit and get an injury free run next year to get his A game ready for the RWC.

Bowe too is out of sorts and needs a good preseason after a season were he struggled for form and fitness.

I'd have been tempted to leave Best at home too but with Cronin out Argentina isn't the best place with 3rd and 4th choice front rowers.

There needs to be a balance of young guys and experienced players here as we need to have one eye on the RWC but still win the series so this is a decent enough selection for me.

rodders wrote:
O'Brien isn't fit enough to play 80min at Leinster and is back ahead of schedule so why in BODs name would you risk him by taking him on tour? He needs to get fit and get an injury free run next year to get his A game ready for the RWC.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27467927

'Sean O'Brien is not included after an infection complicated his recovery from shoulder surgery'

Think Jones is there because Joe recognises he's potentially a player who will do exactly what joe wants, when he wants it. Seems like a smart player who can remain composed. You don't need to be inventive when joe is pulling the strings, you just need to do your job

I'd say Jones is there as a tackle bag holder, like a lot of that squad. I'd guess that the reason Sean Cronin, Madigan etc. are going with the Wolfhounds is

a) they will have played in the Pro12 final just a week before the first Test so will not be available to train before then (and travel time to Argentina as well).

b) They will get more gametime with the Wolfhounds in the Nations Cup.

Schmidt:  "See here Jones!  Look at me when I'm talkin' to you, son.  Now, your job - and under no circumstances veer away from it - is to be as inventive as you can.  Play it as you see it - work on your instinct"

Jones: *gulp*  "DOD told me he'd only want me to hit rucks.  The bastard told me he'd only ask me to hit rucks!"

Sin é wrote:I'd say Jones is there as a tackle bag holder, like a lot of that squad. I'd guess that the reason Sean Cronin, Madigan etc. are going with the Wolfhounds is

a) they will have played in the Pro12 final just a week before the first Test so will not be available to train before then (and travel time to Argentina as well).

b) They will get more gametime with the Wolfhounds in the Nations Cup.

Expert deduction. I concur, Sin.

Sin é wrote:I'd say Jones is there as a tackle bag holder,

I hope not, sure a stiff breeze would injury young Felix. Maybe getting him to carry the kicking tee would be better.

SecretFly wrote:Schmidt:  "See here Jones!  Look at me when I'm talkin' to you, son.  Now, your job - and under no circumstances veer away from it - is to be as inventive as you can.  Play it as you see it - work on your instinct"

Jones: *gulp*  "DOD told me he'd only want me to hit rucks.  The bastard told me he'd only ask me to hit rucks!"

or fall over two metres from the try line...

Sin é wrote:I'd say Jones is there as a tackle bag holder, like a lot of that squad. I'd guess that the reason Sean Cronin, Madigan etc. are going with the Wolfhounds is

a) they will have played in the Pro12 final just a week before the first Test so will not be available to train before then (and travel time to Argentina as well).

b) They will get more gametime with the Wolfhounds in the Nations Cup.

That would make sense.   

Notch wrote:Crazy back three selection there Pete. You slate Jones and then put a back three with him in but no Rob Kearney or Andy Trimble?

Yeah Notch, I'm really not a fan of him but thought I made the reasoning clear. I feel this tour is a lot to do with centre pairing and as such I think having a settled back 3 (the Munster back 3 play week in week out together) may help the two young centres out a fair bit. The other back 3 I was thinking of was Earls and Trimble wings and Zeebs at 15.

Edit: Otherwise the backline is just massively new and unfamiliar. As many believe, I think it best to marry experience with inexperience and with so many new combinations around I think it's best if you can sandwich the new centres with some lads who know each other and can provide a bit of flow I guess.

But none of the centres are from Munster- if it's McFadden/Zebo, Kearney and Trimble they are playing with the back three thats just won the Six Nations. Especially if its McFadden not Zebo. Thats about as established and well-functioning a unit as you can get in test rugby! No doubt they are coming into a back line that already has a settled and effective back three, and it wouldn't matter anyway as the Munster lads will be playing for a different coach who wants them to do different things to what they do with their province. I think your selection would provide less stability not more. Besides, it's more likely if they do become established they will be playing with Kearney and Trimble than Jones and Earls so they may as well get used to it now.

Also, read Sean Cronin is having an operation so is not available for this or the emerging Ireland tour. They want him to have it now so he gets a break and then a full pre-season behind him.

That is a very fair appoint regarding Kearney and Trimble being the lads these guys will be playing with. It would create a good spine of the team too with Best, POC, Heaslip, Sexton, Kearney too. I see your point bud

 

So Bowe is old news now, is he?

Ireland won't be winning any world cups with Kearney's x 2 & Andrew Trimble.

3 Munster players out of 6 back three players and still he bangs on.

I have no doubt that the Munster players will get shafted by Uncle Joe, I'm not sure though he will drop Bowe.

For the November intls I dont expect any difference from the 6ns squad except for the new OC and SOB for Henry. Thats about it I reckon...maybe Earls for McFadden on the bench.

Sin é wrote:I have no doubt that the Munster players will get shafted by Uncle Joe, I'm not sure though he will drop Bowe.

I really don't believe that man. I don't think you do either.

If they are good enough,and if they gel together, they will play.

Don't be naive. He's got a growing rep on the line here. He'd fock over Leinster as quick as he would the other 3. If it gets results. And feeds his CV.

He's heading for AB Coach after this gig. He wont fock it up, over our stupid, inward, Irish Provincialism. He's not daft.

Believe.

Gibbo, I think he is quite inexperienced really as an international coach (as indeed are all of the coaches bar Kiss). I don't think Schmidt is that popular in New Zealand either.

He isn't unpopular in NZ he just isn't in the shop window for a lot of the year. The one level of ruby the NZRU will keep an eye on is international though. If Schmidt can do big things with little Ireland he will suddenly be looking appealing, albeit probably not enough to overshoot someone like Dave Rennie. 2 Heinekens, a Pro12 and a 6N (was he at Clermont when they won the top14?) are not to be sniffed at on the CV, not to mention we were within a mousefart of beating NZ for the first time ever.

The RWC will be telling.

Nope. He isn't liked in New Zealand because of the way he handled Carlos Spencer.

He already interviewed with Cotter (whose stock has fallen) the last time. He will need to work in Super Rugby (or assistant AB coach) before he would get the top Job.

Cotters stock may have fallen but Schmidts certainly hasn't. He has gone from a successful Clermont team to an astronomically successful Leinster team to being part of a successful, yet fledgling Ireland team.

He won't be next in line over someone like Dave Rennie or maybe Smith but if he is successful with Ireland then who knows. Would a lions tour beckon even? If he led a successful lions tour to NZ all bets are off (I think the chance of a successful lions tour over there are bloody slim mind you)

He won't get to lead a Lions tour to NZ, unless it's in 2029

Earls has got to get gametime down in Argentina I think, he has looked really good I think.

I'm expecting Marmion to be kicking around the Autumn Internationals 23 man squad, I'd predict Moore to be starting, SOB obviously, either Payne or Henshaw and possibly another winger somewhere too.

I think NZ would be delighted to get Joe in 2/3/4 years time