Ireland Summer tour.

So now we know who's off with the Lions, who you like to see tour with Ireland? I was hoping that some of the regular wingers would have went as I'd like to see Byrne and the young Munster winger get a crack this summer. Fingers crossed they still will. My starting XV this summer would be:
Healy, Cronin, Ryan, O'Connor, Ryan, Conan, Van der Flier, Heaslip, Marmion, Jackson, Sweetnam (sp), Olding, Ringrose, Byrne, O'Halloran.

When you look at your team, you realise just how subjective that Lions selection process is.

I'd give those guys a crack at the ABs.

1. Healy
2. Scannell
3. Ryan
4. Treadwell
5. Toner
6. Ruddock
7. VDF
8. Conan
9. Marmion
10. Jackson
11. Stockdale
12. Olding
13. Ringrose
14. Sweetnam
15. O' Halloran

Cronin, Kilcoyne, Bealham, Dillane, McGrath, Carberry, Conway

How big will the squad be? I think some people are being a little ambitious with regards to the new players coming in. The usuals who missed out on the Lions tour will all be there. Toner, Heaslip, Trimble, McFadden etc.

Also, there will probably be some injuries that change things.

Rory_Gallagher wrote: How big will the squad be? I think some people are being a little ambitious with regards to the new players coming in. The usuals who missed out on the Lions tour will all be there. Toner, Heaslip, Trimble, McFadden etc.

Also, there will probably be some injuries that change things.

Yeah, but why Rory?  This happens every season.  I could go back five or even ten years at this stage and we'd witness people putting up the new-blood hopes for a summer tour only to be told by the more pragmatic knowledgeable posters that it won't be the way.

Now, it's true.  Going on habits, the usual suspects will turn up but I've seen this sequence of logic happen over and over.  

First we get the November Internationals.  Now, given that it's usually serious SH sides turning up for those games, the logic is that you gotta have a pretty hard-bitten experienced team out there to do the biz (or at least to attempt the biz).  
Much too dangerous a period to try out too many rookies of promise.  No - it's best to wait and maybe give the rookies a cut of the 6N action.  After all,, many of the 6N sides are usually quite a bit lower ranked than the SH big guns.  

And on we go to 6N. Then the logic suddenly becomes: "this is our bread and butter event - this is the biggest seasonal competition on our calendar, this is history and tradition; you can't be mocking the seriousness of the event by trying out too many rookies of promise.  There'll be time enough for them in the Summer, and sure one or two of them might get ten minutes in 6N if there is a sequence of injuries during the campaign".

On to summer then.  But going away is always tough, regardless of the quality of the competition, so caution is needed.  "Let's not get c0cky.  We need a steady ship with not too many squad changes that might upset the rhythm of the team. The young rookies of promise that might have been used must be handled carefully or else they might go into mental disarray and need a psychiatrist's chair for a year or two to recover from some bad experiences.  No, better to wait until maybe the November Internationals, when we're at home and 10 minutes might be found for one or two of them if there are injuries during the campaign".

Repeat...repeat...repeat.

So your analysis is dead right, Rory (based on past experiences) but the question is why that should be the mantra each and every year?  With Nucifora bedded down though, and with O'Gara and other coaches coming in to help out, maybe the old tradition of excuses, excuses, excuses might be dispensed with this time round.

I'd give the older lads a summer off and use the tour to blood the next layer of players down. Leavy, VDF, Scannell, Tracy, Ryan, Bealham, Conan, Olding, Carbery, TOH etc

New caps? Buckley, Dooley, Treadwell, Sweetnam, Stockdale, RO'L, SOB2, etc.

I see no point taking Trimble or McFadden, complete waste.

profitius wrote:I'd give the older lads a summer off and use the tour to blood the next layer of players down. Leavy, VDF, Scannell, Tracy, Ryan, Bealham, Conan, Olding, Carbery, TOH etc

New caps? Buckley, Dooley, Treadwell, Sweetnam, Stockdale, RO'L, SOB2, etc.

Yes please!

Joe: "Frak off!"

I tell you now that the back three will be Earls, Zebo and Kearney! If any of them get injured it will be McFadden, Daverage or Bowe. I wish I was joking.

McFadden is a fine young prospect. Don't down him until you see him in action. As mad as a sack of rats with plenty of cats onboard... but if he can stay injury free, he's the future.

Byrne needs to be tried at a higher level and he looks ready for it. There is no point in putting out a mishmash of new caps, and learn nothing, so each team should be a careful blend of 2019 RWC certainties, 2019 cover prospects, and smattering of untried potential (especially with little depth).

The Great Aukster wrote:Byrne needs to be tried at a higher level and he looks ready for it. There is no point in putting out a mishmash of new caps, and learn nothing, so each team should be a careful blend of 2019 RWC certainties, 2019 cover prospects, and smattering of untried potential (especially with little depth).

Agreed; there has been a huge number of new caps in the last 2 years, our age profile is looking pretty great with the back three the main exception. So, I hope we have a good look at TOH/Byrne and Sweetnam but other than that, we have 11 players gone to the Lions (probably more like 13/14 once a couple injuries happen) and so we should send every available senior player along with 3-4 new caps.

I guess it's the 2019 cover prospects that would be the main debate and therefore the reason to give more genuine big game time to a wider group of players.   These defined/controlled lists of 'certainties' and '2nds' is still too restrictive a pattern. McFadden and Bowe were dropped back into Ireland because they 'knew the systems'. Not exactly the best methodology for finding the next generation of talent. Mucho too slow a process.
Look what Marmion gave the team when he came in and just simply upped the tempo.  One man coming in allowed more than one player to perform at a higher level (against 2nd ranked side in the world) than they had displayed during the other 6N games.  How often does he get a genuine run?  Not trusted enough when Murray is fit but needed to be trusted when Murray wasn't around. Mucho too cautious an approach.

This act of only giving guys a run when injury forces it is denying Ireland the opportunity to see what kind of different rhythm we might unearth by just chancing difference for difference sake.  Genuine Experimentation should have value, especially in the Summer.  It should have value and be given genuine opportunities.

geoff999rugby wrote:I see no point taking Trimble or McFadden, complete waste.

Me too...but it is Joe.

From an Ulster perspective, I think caps are a just reward for Treadwell and Stockdale. Possibly Ludik, purely on quality of performances. Maybe another for Reidy.

Players who have gone massively backwards this season and probably need some time under Gibbes and Peel to improve before they add to their cap tally are Herring, Olding, Marshall, McCloskey.

SecretFly wrote:I guess it's the 2019 cover prospects that would be the main debate and therefore the reason to give more genuine big game time to a wider group of players.   These defined/controlled lists of 'certainties' and '2nds' is still too restrictive a pattern.  McFadden and Bowe were dropped back into Ireland because they 'knew the systems'.  Not exactly the best methodology for finding the next generation of talent.  Mucho too slow a process.
Look what Marmion gave the team when he came in and just simply upped the tempo.  One man coming in allowed more than one player to perform at a higher level (against 2nd ranked side in the world) than they had displayed during the other 6N games.  How often does he get a genuine run?  Not trusted enough when Murray is fit but needed to be trusted when Murray wasn't around.  Mucho too cautious an approach.

This act of only giving guys a run when injury forces it is denying Ireland the opportunity to see what kind of different rhythm we might unearth by just chancing difference for difference sake.  Genuine Experimentation should have value, especially in the Summer.  It should have value and be given genuine opportunities.

It's not a question of being trusted enough. It's a question of being good enough (i.e better). Also you keep peddling this idea that Murrays service is slow or not quick enough with no evidence. You bring up the English game as having some obvious improvement in our back play due to marmions service again with no evidence. In fact you seem to be the only person going on about it. Anyhow Marmion will get his chance to shine in the summer. Maybe you can report back on his speedy service

Treadwell and Stockdale have earned a spot on the tour.
Will ultan be fit? Or us he still out

Plenty of evidence .. look at some rugby with Irish International sides involved and Murray at 9.

Great player for the sneaky steal on the tryline... great player for the strong physical involvement.... sometimes a good player for the strategic kicks.... not by any means the fastest servicing 9 (although he proves he can be when he's interested enough to put his foot on the peddle).  Not consistent enough with the ruthless foot on the peddle.  

So..... Slow service means two things;
- backs options closed down before they have a chance to even think anything off-kilter,
- necessarily more huff and puff from already overworked forwards designed to bury themselves into the first defender they meet, go to ground and recycle.... recycling back to a 9 that doesn't seem to mind spending lots of time repeating phase play over and back across a slow playing field.

Ireland lacks bite - even the most forgiving of Ireland fans/observers admit that we're dead blunt.  A Major part of any blunt side (not the only part but a Major part) is a 9 and his particular style of play.  That's just logic and the physics of a ball trying to get past 15 men in a different coloured shirt.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote: Maybe you can report back on his speedy service

Oh PS....you'll be too busy watching De Glorious Lions to see for yourself?

SecretFly wrote:Plenty of evidence .. look at some rugby with Irish International sides involved and Murray at 9.

Great player for the sneaky steal on the tryline... great player for the strong physical involvement.... sometimes a good player for the strategic kicks.... not by any means the fastest servicing 9 (although he proves he can be when he's interested enough to put his foot on the peddle).  Not consistent enough with the ruthless foot on the peddle.  

So..... Slow service means two things;
- backs options closed down before they have a chance to even think anything off-kilter,
- necessarily more huff and puff from already overworked forwards designed to bury themselves into the first defender they meet, go to ground and recycle.... recycling back to a 9 that doesn't seem to mind spending lots of time repeating phase play over and back across a slow playing field.

Ireland lacks bite - even the most forgiving of Ireland fans/observers admit that we're dead blunt.  A Major part of any blunt side (not the only part but a Major part) is a 9 and his particular style of play.  That's just logic and the physics of a ball trying to get past 15 men in a different coloured shirt.

Apocryphal I believe is the term (in other words bull)

SecretFly wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote: Maybe you can report back on his speedy service

Oh PS....you'll be too busy watching De Glorious Lions to see for yourself?

I will be watching and hoping no Munster players get picked or injured. It is my only interest in de Lyons. Pity the Kearney bros and Jaime weren't picked

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Plenty of evidence .. look at some rugby with Irish International sides involved and Murray at 9.

Great player for the sneaky steal on the tryline... great player for the strong physical involvement.... sometimes a good player for the strategic kicks.... not by any means the fastest servicing 9 (although he proves he can be when he's interested enough to put his foot on the peddle).  Not consistent enough with the ruthless foot on the peddle.  

So..... Slow service means two things;
- backs options closed down before they have a chance to even think anything off-kilter,
- necessarily more huff and puff from already overworked forwards designed to bury themselves into the first defender they meet, go to ground and recycle.... recycling back to a 9 that doesn't seem to mind spending lots of time repeating phase play over and back across a slow playing field.

Ireland lacks bite - even the most forgiving of Ireland fans/observers admit that we're dead blunt.  A Major part of any blunt side (not the only part but a Major part) is a 9 and his particular style of play.  That's just logic and the physics of a ball trying to get past 15 men in a different coloured shirt.

Apocryphal I believe is the term (in other words bull)

Yeah, I'm only joking about Murray. He's a right Speedy Gonzales. The ABs won't know what hit them.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote: Maybe you can report back on his speedy service

Oh PS....you'll be too busy watching De Glorious Lions to see for yourself?

I will be watching and hoping no Munster players get picked or injured. It is my only interest in de Lyons. Pity the Kearney bros and Jaime weren't picked

Murray advised Gats that they were probably too slow for the kind of game he and Gats had planned to inflict on them Kiwis.

Fly, stop triggering these poor munster fans. All their players great, no weaknesses. Can we get back on topic please.

There is also an important 7s season that takes place over the summer with qualification for the World Series Qualifying tournament and the 7s World cup in 2018 at stake. I reckon a few of our young backs and loose forwards could learn a bit playing on that circuit. We should be looking at taking a strong squad for this.

Don Alfonso wrote:From an Ulster perspective, I think caps are a just reward for Treadwell and Stockdale. Possibly Ludik, purely on quality of performances. Maybe another for Reidy.

Players who have gone massively backwards this season and probably need some time under Gibbes and Peel to improve before they add to their cap tally are Herring, Olding, Marshall, McCloskey.

Don't think Ludik will be eligible till the autumn

I would not punish Olding or Marshall too harshly for Kiss joke selection and defensive strategy.
Not their fault Ulster don't pick a proper 13.
Still should go on tour

Herring has been passed by Scannell, and possibly Tracey, who I imagine will go alongside Cronin
McCloskey need s to improve his defence and has been out for months anyway

Hows Treadwell getting on?

profitius wrote:Hows Treadwell getting on?

Honestly every game he's looking better and better. Made a break the other week and you would of sworn it was Ferris steaming down the pitch

carpet baboon wrote:

profitius wrote:Hows Treadwell getting on?

Honestly every game he's looking better and better. Made a break the other week and you would of sworn it was Ferris steaming down the pitch

Cheers. I have not seen much of him but know that he is supposed to be a good athlete. I might be wrong but it looks like he has slimmed down a bit since he joined Ulster?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:From an Ulster perspective, I think caps are a just reward for Treadwell and Stockdale. Possibly Ludik, purely on quality of performances. Maybe another for Reidy.

Players who have gone massively backwards this season and probably need some time under Gibbes and Peel to improve before they add to their cap tally are Herring, Olding, Marshall, McCloskey.

Don't think Ludik will be eligible till the autumn

I would not punish Olding or Marshall too harshly for Kiss joke selection and defensive strategy.
Not their fault Ulster don't pick a proper 13.
Still should go on tour

Luke Marshall has been a disappointment in my opinion. Not just this season but in general, he hasn't lived up to his potential.


Olding might just be suffering a confidence dip. He'll bounce back next season and i think the new coaches will make a difference.

profitius wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:From an Ulster perspective, I think caps are a just reward for Treadwell and Stockdale. Possibly Ludik, purely on quality of performances. Maybe another for Reidy.

Players who have gone massively backwards this season and probably need some time under Gibbes and Peel to improve before they add to their cap tally are Herring, Olding, Marshall, McCloskey.

Don't think Ludik will be eligible till the autumn

I would not punish Olding or Marshall too harshly for Kiss joke selection and defensive strategy.
Not their fault Ulster don't pick a proper 13.
Still should go on tour

Luke Marshall has been a disappointment in my opinion. Not just this season but in general, he hasn't lived up to his potential.


Olding might just be suffering a confidence dip. He'll bounce back next season and i think the new coaches will make a difference.

Don't think Marshall has let Ireland down anytime he's played but do think Geoff is generous in letting him and Olding off the hook for some of their performances though the drop in basic skills seems to be a problem in Ulster

Im sure I've included some who are injured and won't get a look in and missed a few out but think these are the options for the tour.

1.Buckley/McCall/Kilcoyne/Healy
2. Cronin/Herring/Scannell/Tracey/Strauss
3. J.Ryan/Bealham
4/5. Treadwell/Toner/D.Ryan/Holland/Dillane/Roux
6. Conan/Ruddock/McKeon/Leavy/Dom. Ryan
7. Reidy/vDF/Heenan/Henry/TOD
8. Reidy/Heaslip/O'Donoghue/Ruddock
9. McGrath/Marmion
10. Jackson/Carberry/Byrne/Keatley
11. Gilroy/Stockdale/Healy/Zebo/McFadden
12. Olding/Scannell/Marshall/McCloskey/Ringrose
13. Cave/Earls/Ringrose
14. Earls/Trimble/Byrne/Sweetnam/Conway/Adeolokun/Kelleher
15. Stockdale/Carberry/Kearney/Zebo/Conway/O'Halloran

Considering what we have left to pick from this summer after the 11 Lions guys have packed their bags for new Zealand

...just looking at those names listed by marty; it really is a pity the competition isn't a higher grade this summer because the possibilities for Joe are exciting if he and the coaches embrace it.  Could America and Japan rattle us?  Of course they could - we've been humbled before and it'll happen again)...but I don't think Ireland have ever been remotely blessed with the level of real promising choices we now have to shape some exciting teams from.

Ireland inc looks quite potent as a collective right now.  But we need to find that consistency of intensity to make it pay dividends.

Fly we could really put out a mobile and adventurous team this summer and use that as a platform for the future, we all know it's unlikely to happen.

I'd love to see guys like Zebo and Heaslip left home and given a break and a chance to come into a new season fresh, again I can't see it happen because they'll want to be training and sharp in case of a Lions call up and better to be on tour than at home to get in

It'll also be interesting to see if guys like Hart and Farrell make the squad, Hart may be needed as cover as 9 is one area we do look short

marty2086 wrote:

profitius wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:From an Ulster perspective, I think caps are a just reward for Treadwell and Stockdale. Possibly Ludik, purely on quality of performances. Maybe another for Reidy.

Players who have gone massively backwards this season and probably need some time under Gibbes and Peel to improve before they add to their cap tally are Herring, Olding, Marshall, McCloskey.

Don't think Ludik will be eligible till the autumn

I would not punish Olding or Marshall too harshly for Kiss joke selection and defensive strategy.
Not their fault Ulster don't pick a proper 13.
Still should go on tour

Luke Marshall has been a disappointment in my opinion. Not just this season but in general, he hasn't lived up to his potential.


Olding might just be suffering a confidence dip. He'll bounce back next season and i think the new coaches will make a difference.

Don't think Marshall has let Ireland down anytime he's played but do think Geoff is generous in letting him and Olding off the hook for some of their performances though the drop in basic skills seems to be a problem in Ulster

They had a mare against Cardiff but having watched the first 50 mins - when Olding went off - against Munster they have both played well.
One mistake each but both played well.
Both better than Pienaer, Piatau and golden boy Stockdale.
Marshall is not a 13 he is a 12.
We should play Cave or Payne at 13 EVERY game - absolutely key to the defence.

Also they remain good players - the problem at Ulster is a clueless bunch of coaches, that includes Kiss

profitius wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

profitius wrote:Hows Treadwell getting on?

Honestly every game he's looking better and better. Made a break the other week and you would of sworn it was Ferris steaming down the pitch

Cheers. I have not seen much of him but know that he is supposed to be a good athlete. I might be wrong but it looks like he has slimmed down a bit since he joined Ulster?

He has and he is better for it

marty2086 wrote:It'll also be interesting to see if guys like Hart and Farrell make the squad, Hart may be needed as cover as 9 is one area we do look short

Only 3 games I'd say Marmion/McGrath should be enough injuries permitting. We are pretty stacked in the centres even with the 2 lions away so I'd rather the Irish based players get the nod ahead of Farrell.

Golden wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It'll also be interesting to see if guys like Hart and Farrell make the squad, Hart may be needed as cover as 9 is one area we do look short

Only 3 games I'd say Marmion/McGrath should be enough injuries permitting.  We are pretty stacked in the centres even with the 2 lions away so I'd rather the Irish based players get the nod ahead of Farrell.

I know Farrell is a player who Schmidt has kept an eye on and spoken to ROG about in the past so may be a case of getting him into camp and getting a look and preparing him for there future without using him, same for Hart

marty2086 wrote:

Golden wrote:

marty2086 wrote:It'll also be interesting to see if guys like Hart and Farrell make the squad, Hart may be needed as cover as 9 is one area we do look short

Only 3 games I'd say Marmion/McGrath should be enough injuries permitting.  We are pretty stacked in the centres even with the 2 lions away so I'd rather the Irish based players get the nod ahead of Farrell.

I know Farrell is a player who Schmidt has kept an eye on and spoken to ROG about in the past so may be a case of getting him into camp and getting a look and preparing him for there future without using him, same for Hart

Maybe. But I think the wording from Joe Schmidt recently is that he (for his part and in as much as he has control over it - Nucifora being another voice with a vote as it were) is dedicated to the idea that players playing in Ireland have the preference. I think it was his response to the Donnacha Ryan issue - he let Donnacha know that there is always some hope even when players go abroad but it's a very very slim one in his mind.

Hart and Farrell will (almost) be based in Ireland come the summer, I think there may be a stronger case for Hart given the scarcity of scrum halves in Ireland to get him up to speed but guys like Blade and Cooney may be better shouts for going

Of all players who will be available, the ones returning should be top of the list to bring on tour as Schmidt won't be as familiar with them or have the same feedback on them as the players playing in the Provinces.

Wonder will JJ make the squad

Sin é wrote:Of all players who will be available, the ones returning should be top of the list to bring on tour as Schmidt won't be as familiar with them or have the same feedback on them as the players playing in the Provinces.

Wonder will JJ make the squad

NO!


He's from Munster.  

But nice try Sin - very slick....  

Zebo, Earl's, Kearney, Toner and Heaslip should really be left out of this tour to simply give some of the younger up and coming lads a chance.

eirebilly wrote:Zebo, Earl's, Kearney, Toner and Heaslip should really be left out of this tour to simply give some of the younger up and coming lads a chance.

But we gotta win innit! We can't be doin' experimenting and yokes and things when we have winning to do.

I think we'd all like to see a real smorgasbord of newness this Summer when we have probably most opportunity to try it and still (fingers crossed) not embarrass ourselves...but I think we all think the steady eddies will tour.

Gotta say I feel a tingling that might be wrong though.

eirebilly wrote:Zebo, Earl's, Kearney, Toner and Heaslip should really be left out of this tour to simply give some of the younger up and coming lads a chance.

Some probably could do with a prolonged break.

Problem is you don't want to put a team out that will never see the field again, you want a spine that will be complimented by newbies who could make up the team going forward

I just do not see these players as being the future Fly, work should now be done in developing the future team and its depth and these tours are the best chance to do this.

marty2086 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Zebo, Earl's, Kearney, Toner and Heaslip should really be left out of this tour to simply give some of the younger up and coming lads a chance.

Some probably could do with a prolonged break.

Problem is you don't want to put a team out that will never see the field again, you want a spine that will be complimented by newbies who could make up the team going forward

But I don't personally see wins and/or performances as means to an always in-the-future end.  All games are their own history.  Everytime Ireland plays, that's a legit game that goes into the history books.  The tour is the tour, it's against USA and Japan.  If Joe trusted a very changed squad and/or teams for the games, and his trust paid off, that's a few games in the bag with something different from Ireland in style or in personnel.  Then you can assess the merit of the individual performances and see what you might do down the line in Autumn Internationals.  The spine will be able to play with anything that comes in terms of new players.  And new players with an IT factor will slide in if the IT is genuine.

I don't disagree Fly but if you say pick Reidy at 8 because you left Heaslip home what do you learn from his combination with the rest of the back row when he will never play there again for Ireland

There can be a case made for some staying home and others going, Zebo will be around after the next WC and Heaslip will probably go until the WC so they could play a game or two and see how they work with other players and vice versa

eirebilly wrote:I just do not see these players as being the future Fly, work should now be done in developing the future team and its depth and these tours are the best chance to do this.

Oh I'm 100% with you on all that. I was being a little ironic with my first line or two

It isn't even new caps I'm really looking for on this tour. For example, there aren't too many players in the pack that need to be capped. Sean O'Brien at Connacht would be my favourite option for a first cap, but there are a lot of relative newbies (Conan, Leavy, vdF, Dillane) who need more game-time. So I'm happy for Heaslip, Ruddock, Ryan etc. all to feature in the team, as long as the other players get a shot.

It's the backs. We seriously lack pace in the back three especially and we finally have some very young and talented players to choose from. We should be looking at these youngsters sooner rather than later. Byrne, Stockdale, Sweetnam. Plus we need to give Ringrose a new partner at 12.

If we don't deviate from Earls, McFadden, Zebo, Trimble and Kearney in the back three, what a flipping waste of a tour. To me that is one of the key areas we need to look at.