Toulon v Leinster - HC QF

First topic message reminder :

The winners of the last 3 HC's face off on Sunday in the QF on French soil.

Toulon have a few injuries but have squad jammed with internationals so they won't be weakened much.

Just off the back of a cracking win over Toulouse where little Freddie ran the show scoring a try, 2 conversions and 6 penalties to bag a handsome 27 points.

Leinster's win over Munster was, a more sedate affair, scoring only 1 try, and resting their top carrying threat Cian Healy.

Leinster haven't exactly been firing on all cylinders lately (despite winning their last 10 games in a row) but the Northampton game this year will give them the confidence that they can pull out a result.

Should be a cracker.

15: Rob Kearney
14: Fergus McFadden
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Dave Kearney
10: Jimmy Gopperth
9: Eoin Reddan
1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Devin Toner
5: Mike McCarthy
6: Rhys Ruddock
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip CAPTAIN
REPLACEMENTS:
16: Sean Cronin
17: Jack McGrath
18: Martin Moore
19: Leo Cullen
20: Jordi Murphy
21: Isaac Boss
22: Ian Madigan
23: Zane Kirchner

1/ Chiocci
2/ Burden
3/ Hayman
4/ Rossouw
5/ Suta
6/ J. Smith
7/ Fernandez Lobbe
8/ S. Armitage
9/ Tillous-Borde
10/ Wilkinson (.cap)
11/ D. Smith
12/ Giteau
13/ Bastareaud  
14/ Mitchell
15/ D. Armitage

The substitutes:
16/ Orioli
17/ Menini
18/ Castrogiovanni
19/ Mikautadze
20/ Bruni
21/ Michalak
22/ Mermoz
23/ Habana

Jennings saved us a couple of times in the first half with his scramble defence.

He is certainly not an over rated player. He has been one of our best players in recent seasons but is coming to the end of his career. The guy has 4 HC's.

LondonTiger wrote:

stub wrote:

Golden wrote:Is there no chance of Armitage getting an England call up? He'd be a great addition for them in the RWC

I hope he is called up but it doesn't seem that foreign based players get a look in. Shame...

He had some real eye-catching moments to win MotM. however he also spent much of the game awol. Smith, Lobbe and Rossouw put in the real hard work to allow Armitage to shine. Lancaster wants exceptional work rate from his pack - so if Armitage was to feature he would nead real grafters around him in the back row. This would mean leaving out Billy V. I know who I would rather have.

I wouldn't want to be without Billy V...

How about Armitage as an interesting bench option??

Jennings did look to be struggling with the pace of the game after about 30 mins

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Jennings saved us a couple of times in the first half with his scramble defence.

He is certainly not an over rated player. He has been one of our best players in recent seasons but is coming to the end of his career. The guy has 4 HC's.

4 finals only 3 medals.

He was great last week, but his time is coming to an end alright

Gibson wrote:So brutal-strength vs Rugby in the SF's?

We all really need ASM to win this. For rugby's sake.

Already have de shirt.

Surely all four semi-finalists are more about power and strength than they are about flair?

Armitage decided to go to France. He seems happy there. He's also made it clear that he'll prefer to stay in France than play for England. Again, that's fine but I'd rather us use England based players if possible...he's not THAT good.

Congrats Toulon on the win.

Didn't the Armitages grow up in France anyway. Id say he regrets playing for England now.

LondonTiger wrote:I am not going to defend MOC - I felt he had taken us as far as he could and was not a good fit for Leinster.

However the Leinster players were not good today. I was really disappointed i expected better, but the basic skills you would expect of players of the calibre they have was not good enough. It is always easy to blame the coach, especially if he is an "outsider", but if players miss as many tackles as they did today, pass so badly and drop so many balls - well it is obvious who is most at fault.

True, it's down to the players to make tackles and catch the ball. And I'm not calling for MOC's head. Just saying I'm not that impressed so far. He needs to look at how to improve our passing and attacking. Because the standards have dropped in those area's.

Golden wrote:

Gibson wrote:So brutal-strength vs Rugby in the SF's?

We all really need ASM to win this. For rugby's sake.

Already have de shirt.

It's Munsters turn again Gibbo.

One can hope anyway   

Can they do it? Yes they can. Big time. They have the nous and now they have a wee bit of sex on their side to cause damage.

Im all for em. Love to see them bate Toulon up.  Id focking love  it. Brute vs Brute.

But, ASM for de Heino. They deserve it. Rugby deserves it.

Cant have muny-rich Sarries or Toulon. Heino-ending cahnts  winning out.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Didn't the Armitages grow up in France anyway. Id say he regrets playing for England now.

I think they did for a bit but seem to remember they spent a fair bit of time in England too. If he's happy in France fair play to him - Toulon looked rather nice today I thought.

Have to say 4 really good games (even if the results didn't go the right way   )

LondonTiger wrote:

stub wrote:

Golden wrote:Is there no chance of Armitage getting an England call up? He'd be a great addition for them in the RWC

I hope he is called up but it doesn't seem that foreign based players get a look in. Shame...

He had some real eye-catching moments to win MotM. however he also spent much of the game awol. Smith, Lobbe and Rossouw put in the real hard work to allow Armitage to shine. Lancaster wants exceptional work rate from his pack - so if Armitage was to feature he would nead real grafters around him in the back row. This would mean leaving out Billy V. I know who I would rather have.

furry muff. but what international side in the world wouldnt want a player in their matchday squad who can genuinely play 6,7 or 8 to a truly world class level? even if only on the bench, if you favour the current england back 3, he is quite simply a must have.

That's two years in a row now Munster have gone further than us. The the feicers.

They tend to be unlucky with the away semi final draw a lot though. Second season in a row they have to go away to one of the French teams due to bad luck in the draw. Will this be changed in the new Super Duper Champions Championship? It would be fairer to decide the semi final draw according to points in the pool stage.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Didn't the Armitages grow up in France anyway. Id say he regrets playing for England now.

Lived there a couple of years while their step-father was working in French. Started playing rugby in England as infants and carried on there in their late teens.

But they do count as JIFF so valuable to French teams like Toulon with few of them.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Didn't the Armitages grow up in France anyway. Id say he regrets playing for England now.

delon armitage played representative rugby for french u16s but they rejected him as being too tall and skinny. that apparently was a contributor to him moving to england to play club and representative rugby.

both armitage brothers grew up from 96-2002 in france and played french club rugby at junior level. incident5ally they dont count as foreign players under the french club quota system.

am gutted that they can't play for england (particularly steffon), but can understand why they absolutely love life in toulon. weather, money, unbelievable team, great atmosphere, completely fluent in the language and culture, massively adored by fans who prefer rugby to football. what's not to like?

I see Big Phil Vickery is a pundit for the Amlin match. Obviously learning the ropes for a potential TV career after his retirement from rugby. Which hopefully won't be for another few years.

HammerofThunor wrote:Armitage decided to go to France. He seems happy there. He's also made it clear that he'll prefer to stay in France than play for England. Again, that's fine but I'd rather us use England based players if possible...he's not THAT good.

Congrats Toulon on the win.

i disagree. yes he is that good.

he is going to win ERC player of the year this year. you heard it here first. 5 ft 7in playing at 8.

there are no guarantees in international rugby so his choice was play for one of europe's best sides, or hangout in england after being excoriated by the media, hoping for the nod in the england setup. that's no choice at all as far as i am concerned. especially with the difference in calibre, money, culture, appreciation and atmosphere between toulon and london irish.

Gibson wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:As for Leinster, I fear you are going to be in a long transition phase as you look to replace D'Arcy, BOD and start blooding Madigan as the primary 10.  Reddan isn't exactly young either.  More depth is needed at the outside backs too.

That could be a long and painful process.

And for Ulster Rory?

For Ulster, our pack needs a LOT of work and for me has been a real weakness this season. Especially at the breakdown. However I am delighted with the quality and depth we have in our back-line and confident that very soon we will have the best back-line in Europe. I genuinely believe that. The question marks lie over our options in the pack for the future. But with this back-line:

9) Pienaar
10) Jackson
11) Bowe
12) Marshall
13) Cave
14) Trimble
15) Payne

21) Weakness here
22) Stuart Olding (Could easily start somewhere)
23) Craig Gilroy

We are one of the best. Apart from having a good back-up at 9 I wouldn't change a single one of them.

Armitage was huge today. Don't like im, don't have to, but he's a born-winner. Respect.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

CraigS1874 wrote:Steffon armitage is up there with Mccaw, warburton and pocock as the best open sides in the world(I know he plays 8). He dictated that game slowed Leinsters game and meant they could not play.

England need him with robshaw for the rwc if they are going to be contenders. I can't see past an all French final again which is a shame.

Throw O'Brien in with the other names and put Armitage behind him.  But yes, Armitage is some player and I think England can no longer ignore the impact he has.  He is the complete 7.

Agree o'brien is probably the best all round back rower but don't think he is as specialist as the others.

I know everyone is going on about steffon, but do england fans think delon would start at 15 if he was still playing in England ?

Dont think Marshall & Cave match up Ror. Certainly not at international level. Maybe it will work for Ulster at the HC top-end, but I doubt it. Sorry man.

Better than the situation we are in mind. BOD & Dorce are fini. Joe needs feeding.

Well done Toulon. Nice to see the Armitage brothers having good games.

It must be great playing rugby in the South of France in front of crowds like that

Some tasty semi-finals in the offing now.

Thankfully Toulon spared us one of Barnes' homoerotic Leinster eulogies.

Easy Tiger.

Its Toulon v ASM really. A repeat of last years Final. Lets be honest here.

This time, its ASM's.

Feel sorry for Leinster. The difference between the teams can perhaps be summed up by the five words at which I happened to glance at the end of the BBC match report:

Substitutes not used: Bryan Habana.

Absolutely mad, Ted.

LondonTiger wrote:

Gibson wrote:So brutal-strength vs Rugby in the SF's?

We all really need ASM to win this. For rugby's sake.

Already have de shirt.

Surely all four semi-finalists are more about power and strength than they are about flair?

ASM have a truly ludicrous capacity for flair

Golden wrote:

Gibson wrote:So brutal-strength vs Rugby in the SF's?

We all really need ASM to win this. For rugby's sake.

Already have de shirt.

It's Munsters turn again Gibbo.

One can hope anyway   

Crikey...we havent a hope against Touloin...shure we will go down and give it a lash and enjoy the moment...

I'd say Munster have a very fast and dangerous backline with Zebo, Earls, Lualua, Murray, Keatley etc. they ripped Toulouse to pieces yesterday.

toulon have flair aplenty.

wilko, giteau, arimatge x 2, burden, michalak, habana, palisson.

they also have awesome forwards and 2 awesome turnover machines in basteraud and armitage which they would be moronic not to use. certainly doesnt mean they are all about power and strength.

naive to say so to be honest.

Its hard to remember that this was the end to big Leo's fantastic HC career too. Great player to us and I'm sure he will make a great coach next season too.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Its hard to remember that this was the end to big Leo's fantastic HC career too. Great player to us and I'm sure he will make a great coach next season too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw2kJJQKD1g

And, dare I say it, Munster can sex it up now when they need to.

I really wish I hadn't said that.

ME-109 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Its hard to remember that this was the end to big Leo's fantastic HC career too. Great player to us and I'm sure he will make a great coach next season too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw2kJJQKD1g

 

He will be a great forwards  coach. Smartest Leinster man of em all.

Munster I reckon have the sheer bloody mindedness to g down toe France and beat Toulon. I'd not be surprised if it's a Munster vs. Saracens final. (Would prefer Munster vs. ASM though).

quinsforever wrote:toulon have flair aplenty.

wilko, giteau, arimatge x 2, burden, michalak, habana, palisson.

they also have awesome forwards and 2 awesome turnover machines in basteraud and armitage which they would be moronic not to use. certainly doesnt mean they are all about power and strength.

naive to say so to be honest.

But yet they play like last-years Munster still. Why?

Well, de bookies have an all-French final with Toulon marginal favourites with Munster outsiders at 6-1 with Saracens at 11-2. Dunno, but 6-1 for Munster sounds an attractive punt - the Velodrome in Marseille isn't quite the Mayol and an 8 point spread for that match sound attractive. That said, after Munster and Leicester gave me the first two legs of a treble this weekend, Leinster phooked up the third leg.

In true Brian Lenihan speak - on mature reflection Leinster made Toulon look a lot better than they really are today, it was a truly sh1te second half display and O'Connor has to look at his tactics, his substitutions and a lot else. Munster can win the SF, but they need to look closely at where Leinster phooked it up - play the same way as Leinster and they'll lose - negate Toulon at the breakdown and they are half way to winning.

Is MOC the coach to bring us back to where we belong - sorry no he isn't and if he stays for the rest of his contract (how long?) then we are heading for lean times. Pains me to stay it but golden age for Leinster is well and truly over and we need new blood at 9 (Marmion) and 12/13 now that BOD and Dorce are either retiring or over the hill.

Today was a salutary lesson as to where we are right now

when toulon raise their game, offensively and defensively, there is no team in my opinion that can live with them. their physical challenge combined with their attacking threat, and broken play threat, are second to none. pace, power, guile and experience in every position. and when motivated, are simply the best team in NH rugby.


and toulon do tend to raise their game come the knockout stages of HC.

dont think ASM will raise their game the same way for HC so my money is all on Toulon.

Dissapointed to hear a huge cheer in the pub in Birmingham from Leinster fans when Wilkinson went of injured. A real disgrace.

they probably werent rugby fans.

CraigS1874 wrote:...

I know everyone is going on about steffon, but do england fans think delon would start at 15 if he was still playing in England ?

No he wouldnt. But if he could convince Lancaster that his attitude was fixed he would make a useful back up given the general lack of experience. He was one of the few England players to not mess up his reputation last WC - and that was playing out of position on the wing.

Having said that time would have been against him.

The RFU stance has the effect of stemming the migration of English players to France etc.
If the IRFU and WRU had a similar policy, then Sexton and the Welsh horde may well have stayed at home.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:The RFU stance has the effect of stemming the migration of English players to France etc.
If the IRFU and WRU had a similar policy, then Sexton and the Welsh horde may well have stayed at home.

In fairness Sexton is the only front line Irish player to have left for France...there maybe more in the future but the stampede isnt likely to happen at the moment.

I haven't read all the comments, but I get the impression that Leinster fans were as disappointed with that display from their team as I was. Such poor play in almost every aspect of the game (the exception was the scrum) was really quite shocking.

So commiserations to you all and well done Toulon.

Yep Kia. Pretty poor. We can swat most teams away in the rabo and HC pools. But at the business end of the HC we have to be a lot better than that to live with the best sides. I think Munster can do it.

Just not good enough. Well done Toulon but I hope Munster tear you to shreds in the semi and go on to win the thing.

wrfc1980 wrote:Dissapointed to hear a huge cheer in the pub  in Birmingham from Leinster fans when Wilkinson went of injured. A real disgrace.

Knock knock.

Mickado wrote:Just not good enough. Well done Toulon but I hope Munster tear you to shreds in the semi and go on to win the thing.

The difference could be the fact that its in Marseilles with I reckon anuthing up to 15,000 Munster fans. We went to Clermont last year with no confidence, a poor scrum and a poor line out and no back play apart from side to side and drove them close. This year is a different storey.

Leinster have won 4 European cups in 5 years a feet that may never be achieved again. It was always going to be tough this year without Sexton, Neweca and SOB. Take them 3 players out of anything and you will be weakened. The positives for Leinster is that the academy is producing quality players to replace these.

Mickado wrote:Just not good enough. Well done Toulon but I hope Munster tear you to shreds in the semi and go on to win the thing.

Yep that would be good.

Great performance from Toulon. Chuffed to bits with that. The difference between them and Toulouse is that they carry in the right areas. Toulouse have a massive pack but their percentage rugby is crap and doesn't get them in the right areas.

I'd like to see a Clermont v Toulon final with Clermont edging it.