HC, Pool 6, Round 6: Munster Rugby v Edinburgh

by **George Carlin** Wed 15 Jan 2014, 8:57 am

First topic message reminder :

Munster Rugby v Edinburgh

Sunday 19th January 2014, KO 12:45
Thomond Park, Limerick

Live on Sky Sports & Sky Italia

Referee Wayne Barnes (England)
Touch Judge 1 Tim Wigglesworth (England)
Touch Judge 2 Roy Maybank (England)
Fourth Official Barrie O'Connell (Ireland)
TMO Sean Davey (England)

Citing Commissioner Yves Thieffine (France)

A. Current Standings:

1	Munster	5	4	1	123	71	2	18
2	Edinburgh	5	3	2	98	103	0	12
3	Gloucester	5	2	3	77	96	1	9
4	Perpignan	5	1	4	94	122	3	7

B. Form:

1. Munster

11/1/14	Gloucester	7 - 20	Munster
14/12/13	Perpignan	17 - 18	Munster
8/12/13	Munster	36 - 8	Perpignan

2. Edinburgh

1/1/14	Edinburgh	27 - 16	Perpignan
15/12/13	Gloucester	10 - 16	Edinburgh
8/12/13	Edinburgh	12 - 23	Gloucester

C. Teams:

1. Munster
15 Felix Jones
14 Keith Earls
13 Casey Laulala
12 James Downey
11 Johne Murphy
10 Ian Keatley
9 Conor Murray

1 Dave Kilcoyne
2 Damien Varley
3 Stephen Archer
4 Dave Foley
5 Paul O'Connell
6 Peter O'Mahony (capt)
7 Tommy O'Donnell
8 James Coughlan

16 Duncan Casey
17 James Cronin
18 BJ Botha
19 Donncha O'Callaghan
20 Paddy Butler
21 Duncan Williams
22 JJ Hanrahan
23 Simon Zebo

2. Edinburgh
15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Douglas Fife
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Tom Brown
10 Greig Tonks
9 Greig Laidlaw (capt)

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 Willem Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Izak Van Der Westhuizen
6 Cornell Du Preez
7 Roddy Grant
8 David Denton

16 Aleki Lutui
17 Lodewicus Blaauw
18 Geoff Cross
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Tomas Leonardi
21 Grayson Hart
22 Carl Bezuidenhout
23 Joaquin Dominguez

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun 19 Jan 2014, 3:51 pm

GLove39 wrote:Jeeze our defence today has almost been as bad as Sky's co-commentator

Scott Hastings was also nearly as bad as De Luca's defence too !

by poddy89 Sun 19 Jan 2014, 4:13 pm

How did tonks do at 10 today?

by **RDW** Sun 19 Jan 2014, 4:24 pm

poddy89 wrote:How did tonks do at 10 today?

Didn't do much wrong, but didn't stand out. His penalty kicks to touch are the best I've seen from any Scotland player though

by poddy89 Sun 19 Jan 2014, 4:33 pm

I am thinking it's worth giving him a go at 10 during the 6 nation's, with weir not on much form just now and Jackson just as inconsistent as ever

Would like to have him on the bench at least for the Ireland game

think he will have more of a shot of caps with playing 10 anyway

by **George Carlin** Sun 19 Jan 2014, 5:12 pm

Is there any SQ fly half who is currently (a) showing better form and (b) benefitting from playing consistently than Tonks? I can't think of anyone else at the moment. Will a Scotland coach break the pattern of the last 3 incumbents and pick on form?

by poddy89 Sun 19 Jan 2014, 5:17 pm

Yeah I don't get why the Scotland squads never seem to pick form, yeah occasionally I get they try something out etc but just seems to be constant

I hope that cotters got an input and pushing for form players to be selected

by asoreleftshoulder Sun 19 Jan 2014, 5:20 pm

BlueMuff wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:He's been injured...I'm sure that has something to do with it? I've no doubt Schmidt will add him now.

Earls is good at this level but can't make the step up I'm afraid. The kind of space he finds himself in with Munster won't be there at international level. Zebo was everwhere today and took the ball to the line really well.

Well ifs the case why is McFadden in? He's injured and hasn't played any games!!!

And James coughlan is another noticeable absentee.

Probably cos JS likes McFadden,Coughlan isn't really that notable he's a decent 8 but it would take an injury crisis before he ever got close to a cap.

by ME-109 Sun 19 Jan 2014, 5:30 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:He's been injured...I'm sure that has something to do with it? I've no doubt Schmidt will add him now.

Earls is good at this level but can't make the step up I'm afraid. The kind of space he finds himself in with Munster won't be there at international level. Zebo was everwhere today and took the ball to the line really well.

Well ifs the case why is McFadden in? He's injured and hasn't played any games!!!

And James coughlan is another noticeable absentee.

Probably cos JS likes McFadden,Coughlan isn't really that notable he's a decent 8 but it would take an injury crisis before he ever got close to a cap.

Lfan4life...Earls has been in great form this year you twit. After Zebos performance today he should make the team unless of course JS is going for the Leinster bias which is possible.

McFadden is a good player but is all heads down and cant pass for sh.t which is interesting consider you give out about Earls for that which is a load of rubbish as well.

To my mind TOD should make the backrow. his all round game is better than henrys who is a one trick pony really and doesnt do any link work with the backs...We will need TOD and POM to make Jamie look good anyway.

Coughlan was MOTM and deservedly so. The bus has passed him for Ireland but that dont matter. One of the players we need fully fit for the QFs as he controls the game for us similar to Axel...

by Thomond Sun 19 Jan 2014, 6:17 pm

Zebo was left out of the Irish squad to try and get him match fitness. He played well for sure. A noticeable player even when doesn't do anything, although he cant be accused of that today.

by KiaRose Sun 19 Jan 2014, 6:19 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:He's been injured...I'm sure that has something to do with it? I've no doubt Schmidt will add him now.

Zebo was everwhere today and took the ball to the line really well.

Zebo was back playing before JS announced his squad - admittedly only for 13 minutes last week but ... he was back in full training before that.

McFadden hasn't been part of a rugby game since the match against Australia adn makes the squad.

Still, if JS's Leinster bias continues, at least the Munster and Ulster players won't come back shattered from the 6N's campaign Very Happy

by **Notch** Sun 19 Jan 2014, 6:26 pm

Zebo will be involved in the squad, I have absolutely no doubt at all about it to be fair.

The 32-man squad named after the Wolfhounds will have his name in it- he isn't going to training this week, he won't be a part of the Wolfhounds game but after that there's nothing to stop him being selected.

If Earls is injured he probably will be brought back even quicker. Any news of Earls?

by Thomond Sun 19 Jan 2014, 6:50 pm

Medial ligament damage, will miss a decent chunk of the 6 Nations at least, going for a full scan tomorrow.

by LeinsterFan4life Sun 19 Jan 2014, 7:02 pm

ME-109 wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
BlueMuff wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:He's been injured...I'm sure that has something to do with it? I've no doubt Schmidt will add him now.

Earls is good at this level but can't make the step up I'm afraid. The kind of space he finds himself in with Munster won't be there at international level. Zebo was everwhere today and took the ball to the line really well.

Well ifs the case why is McFadden in? He's injured and hasn't played any games!!!

And James coughlan is another noticeable absentee.

Probably cos JS likes McFadden,Coughlan isn't really that notable he's a decent 8 but it would take an injury crisis before he ever got close to a cap.

Lfan4life...Earls has been in great form this year you twit. After Zebos performance today he should make the team unless of course JS is going for the Leinster bias which is possible.

McFadden is a good player but is all heads down and cant pass for sh.t which is interesting consider you give out about Earls for that which is a load of rubbish as well.

To my mind TOD should make the backrow. his all round game is better than henrys who is a one trick pony really and doesnt do any link work with the backs...We will need TOD and POM to make Jamie look good anyway.

Coughlan was MOTM and deservedly so. The bus has passed him for Ireland but that dont matter. One of the players we need fully fit for the QFs as he controls the game for us similar to Axel...

I never said Earls was not in good form? I just think Zebo offers more in international matches and I already said he should be in the Ireland squad...

I never said Mcfadden was better than Earls and never said McFadden should be in the squad? I agree with the rest of your post...

by funnyExiledScot Sun 19 Jan 2014, 9:55 pm

Disappointed to be so comprehensively beaten, some really basic errors and woeful wide defence. Munster were solid and clinical, but we gifted some seriously soft scores.

Dickinson and Ford struggled, VDW was anonymous and Denton made a host of basic errors not looking after the ball in contact. It was probably Du Preezs worst game for Edinburgh as well. Only plus performances for me were Dougie Fife and Tonks. Nothing special from Tonks but another game under the belt against top quality opposition.

All in all a let down, but we're still better than we were last season.

by **RDW** Sun 19 Jan 2014, 9:58 pm

3 wins in the HK and something to play for up until the last game - we should be delighted about that after last season!

by funnyExiledScot Sun 19 Jan 2014, 10:05 pm

Agreed. Another thing I noticed was our centres. There's nothing happening with Atiga and NDL both of whom were poor today. NDL keeps dropping the ball, and Atiga has no pace or acceleration. Simply tackling isn't enough at this level. I really do think Fife should consider 13 when Visser and Walker return.

by **George Carlin** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 6:58 am

Three wins is more than Glasgow managed in the HC this year. Definitely progress.

So what do we think is potentially the best Edinburgh backline from a try scoring perspective? Something like?:

09. Laidlaw
10. Tonks/Bezzy
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Strauss
14. Fife
15. Brown

by funnyExiledScot Mon 20 Jan 2014, 10:35 am

George Carlin wrote:Three wins is more than Glasgow managed in the HC this year. Definitely progress.

So what do we think is potentially the best Edinburgh backline from a try scoring perspective? Something like?:

09. Laidlaw
10. Tonks/Bezzy
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Strauss
14. Fife
15. Brown

Out-performing Glasgow in the HC isn't progress. Even in our darkest hours Glasgow usually managed to out-choke us on the big stage.

I haven't seen Strauss yet so I'm not sure whether he's our best 13 or not.

I'd probably use Bezzy at 10, Tonks at 15, Brown on the right wing and move Fife to 13. That's until I discover that Strauss is the player Jacques Fourie always wished he could be......

by justified sinner Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:09 pm

Du Preez has been cited for the POC incident. Surely a joke?

by TJ Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:14 pm

Seems odd - ref dealt with it at the time - why the citing? No injuries not worth more than a yellow

by **RDW** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:19 pm

FFS - there's been a lot of debate whether a yellow was justified never mind a citing. Let's hope common sense prevails.

Is there any precedent for an incident like this?

by **profitius** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:40 pm

justified sinner wrote:Du Preez has been cited for the POC incident. Surely a joke?

Personally I thought it was a shocking challenge. POC's head was down and Du Press went head first into his head. A pure headbutt in other words.

He should get a few weeks for wreck less behaviour and that's with the benefit of the doubt.

by **RDW** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:43 pm

Given that the ref and touch judge saw it, and the tmo reviewed it, and he was given a yellow surely the only way he would get a ban would be if the citing officer thought it was worthy of a red - I.e. all 3 officials were wrong in their decision!

by TJ Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:44 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given that the ref and touch judge saw it, and the tmo reviewed it, and he was given a yellow surely the only way he would get a ban would be if the citing officer thought it was worthy of a red - I.e. all 3 officials were wrong in their decision!

thats the way I read it. the citing officer would have to be sure it was intentional worth a red card not reckless worth a yellow

by **RDW** Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:47 pm

Here's one of the many bakkies botha examples

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPEYtII2qgw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

To me that is a lot worse than du preez's - if botha didn't get any punishment there's no way du preez should.

by TJ Mon 20 Jan 2014, 10:07 pm

Two wrongs don't make a right

by funnyExiledScot Mon 20 Jan 2014, 10:38 pm

I didn't think it was a penalty personally, let alone a yellow card. Just good rucking. Guess we all see things differently.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 20 Jan 2014, 10:39 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I didn't think it was a penalty personally, let alone a yellow card. Just good rucking. Guess we all see things differently.

So head butting someone in the face is acceptable? Headscratch

by ME-109 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 10:41 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I didn't think it was a penalty personally, let alone a yellow card. Just good rucking. Guess we all see things differently.

So head butting someone in the face is acceptable?

in some places its a show of affection...

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 20 Jan 2014, 10:48 pm

Skip to about 6 minutes in to see the incident. The clear headbutt is shown at around 6.31.

I am shocked that some people think that is "good rucking" or didn't warranty a yellow card. It was totally reckless.

by Nematode Mon 20 Jan 2014, 11:07 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Skip to about 6 minutes in to see the incident. The clear headbutt is shown at around 6.31.

I am shocked that some people think that is "good rucking" or didn't warranty a yellow card. It was totally reckless.

So, du Preez hits a ruck legitimately and you make a big fuss. What do you make of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O8s5J9yjxg

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 20 Jan 2014, 11:13 pm

What has that clip got to do with anything? That is completely irrelevant and a pretty immature response.

It was a reckless act, and you can post as many silly videos in response as you wish, but that doesn't make his action any better. Next time at least try to get something even remotely comparable, though. thumbsup

by ME-109 Mon 20 Jan 2014, 11:15 pm

So he got a red card deservedly? Yet dupreez head-butts a prone player unable to protect himself as two other edinburgh players were holding him and you think thats okay... Up to now i was happy with the yellow but given some of the comments on here i would be quite happy to see him banned for picking up bad habits in his adopted country (or should i say province)

by **RDW** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 7:19 am

Comments? You've obviously never come across us Scots - we're a sarcastic brunch!

And anyway I blame barns dor this - the ball wasn't playable and he should have blown a scrum and half time. So really he should be getting the punishment!

(In the avoidance of doubt that was a joke too! Wink

)

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 21 Jan 2014, 10:48 am

Tis a fair citing, lads - certainly reckless and could easily have been a red card on the day

by **RDW** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:03 am

TJ wrote:Two wrongs don't make a right

They don't, but precedent is a big part of citings and indeed appeals afterwards. If Du Preez gets a ban and it turns out there are examples like the Bakkies Botha one where they didn't get a ban then you can be assured that the Edinburgh legal team will bring them out straight away!

by **George Carlin** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:14 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
TJ wrote:Two wrongs don't make a right

They don't, but precedent is a big part of citings and indeed appeals afterwards. If Du Preez gets a ban and it turns out there are examples like the Bakkies Botha one where they didn't get a ban then you can be assured that the Edinburgh legal team will bring them out straight away!

FES and Stockbridge Associates LLP are apparently standing by. With a Pimms.

by **Notch** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:20 am

That was very stupid by Du Preez. No attempt to use the arms- pretty clear-cut decision. No chance it wasn't a yellow.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:47 pm

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
TJ wrote:Two wrongs don't make a right

They don't, but precedent is a big part of citings and indeed appeals afterwards. If Du Preez gets a ban and it turns out there are examples like the Bakkies Botha one where they didn't get a ban then you can be assured that the Edinburgh legal team will bring them out straight away!
FES and Stockbridge Associates LLP are apparently standing by. With a Pimms.

I'd do this one pro bono. If that was an offence then I think there should be plenty repeat work from which to make some healthy coin for my Spaniel fund.

"Reckless rucking".... sounds like the citing commissioner is going to have his hands full from here on in.

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 21 Jan 2014, 12:56 pm

Haven't seen it.

So, was it life threatening to the darling of Munster as some (Irish) would claim (and was he cheating as per) or was it good old fashioned rucking which should be brought back in to stop slowing of the ball anyway?

by funnyExiledScot Tue 21 Jan 2014, 1:59 pm

The ruck was festering with POC caught in the middle, and Du Preez charged in to clear him out. There was a clash of heads.

It comes down to whether you think Du Preez was deliberate or reckless. I don't. Several do (including a number of Scots).

It was referred to the TV official who advised Barnes that Du Preez was reckless and Barnes duly issued the yellow card.

It's a matter of opinion, but ultimately it was reviewed in slow motion by a TV match official so I can have no complaints.

by **George Carlin** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 2:18 pm

Justice for the Ginger One.

by jimbopip Tue 21 Jan 2014, 2:26 pm

Tut tut Georgie. There is only one Ginger Nut (ter).
My own opinion is that it was deliberate, dangerous and a classic "cheap shot". Deserved a red and a ban.

by **RDW** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 2:32 pm

jimbopip wrote:Tut tut Georgie. There is only one Ginger Nut (ter).
My own opinion is that it was deliberate, dangerous and a classic "cheap shot". Deserved a red and a ban.

I suspect your own opinion would be different if it was a Glasgow player doing it! Wink

by **George Carlin** Tue 21 Jan 2014, 2:38 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
jimbopip wrote:Tut tut Georgie. There is only one Ginger Nut (ter).
My own opinion is that it was deliberate, dangerous and a classic "cheap shot". Deserved a red and a ban.

I suspect your own opinion would be different if it was a Glasgow player doing it!

Totally. Fair's fair. They'd be fighting against muscle memory for a start.

by jimbopip Tue 21 Jan 2014, 2:58 pm

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
jimbopip wrote:Tut tut Georgie. There is only one Ginger Nut (ter).
My own opinion is that it was deliberate, dangerous and a classic "cheap shot". Deserved a red and a ban.

I suspect your own opinion would be different if it was a Glasgow player doing it!
No it wouldn't. Every rugby player from the lofty Olympian heights of the 6N down to the level most of us play at knows that each time they pull on a jersey they are taking a calculated risk. At some level we all know we will get hurt and suffer injury from time to time. That's the Faustian pact we make: we get to play the best game in the world and belong to a fraternity which has few peers in society as a whole but we get to carry the scars for a long time. For most of us they provide the material for anecdotes at VP's lunches. For some it's a lot more serious. There is no place in rugby for people who deliberately seek to injure another player. My view is that POC was making a nuisance of himself in the wrong side of the ruck. His arms were tucked inside it and his head was totally exposed and unguarded. Du Preez ran up and launched a flying head butt into his face. If a Glasgow player did it I would be just as disgusted. If a team mate of mine did it I would suggest he played for another club.
Obviously if Al Kellock did it I wouldn't say a thing. I would be speechless that he had hit a ruck.

Totally. Fair's fair. They'd be fighting ~~against~~ due to muscle memory for a start.

I can see why you might get confused

by tigertattie Tue 21 Jan 2014, 3:24 pm

Soooooooooo. It depends on what side of the fence you are sitting on as to if this is a warranted citing or not

I shall need to review this when I get home

by Nachos Jones Tue 21 Jan 2014, 6:10 pm

Too me, it wasn't pretty and he probably would have gotton away with it if Barnes didn't go to the TMO, that's when it looked its worst. I thought it was a yellow and that should have been the end of the story as far as I am concerned.

Really see no reason for the citing.

by TJ Tue 21 Jan 2014, 8:55 pm

Reckless = yellow, Deliberate = red. Yellow seems fair enough to me. Red? I don't think so.

by poddy89 Tue 21 Jan 2014, 9:06 pm

Nothing wrong with that,, should haven't been lying
ontop slowing the ball down

Simples

And the complaining to the officials - 'really' just play the whistle or we might as
well just take up football

Pathetic whinging to the linesman

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