HC, Pool 6, Round 6: Munster Rugby v Edinburgh

Munster Rugby v Edinburgh

Sunday 19th January 2014, KO 12:45
Thomond Park, Limerick

Live on Sky Sports & Sky Italia

Referee Wayne Barnes (England)
Touch Judge 1 Tim Wigglesworth (England)
Touch Judge 2 Roy Maybank (England)
Fourth Official Barrie O'Connell (Ireland)
TMO Sean Davey (England)

Citing Commissioner Yves Thieffine (France)

A. Current Standings:

1	Munster	5	4	0	1	123	71	2	18
2	Edinburgh	5	3	0	2	98	103	0	12
3	Gloucester	5	2	0	3	77	96	1	9
4	Perpignan	5	1	0	4	94	122	3	7

B. Form:

1. Munster

11/1/14	Gloucester	7 - 20	Munster
14/12/13	Perpignan	17 - 18	Munster
8/12/13	Munster	36 - 8	Perpignan

2. Edinburgh

1/1/14	Edinburgh	27 - 16	Perpignan
15/12/13	Gloucester	10 - 16	Edinburgh
8/12/13	Edinburgh	12 - 23	Gloucester

C. Teams:

1. Munster
15 Felix Jones
14 Keith Earls
13 Casey Laulala
12 James Downey
11 Johne Murphy
10 Ian Keatley
9  Conor Murray

1 Dave Kilcoyne
2 Damien Varley
3 Stephen Archer
4 Dave Foley
5 Paul O'Connell
6 Peter O'Mahony (capt)
7 Tommy O'Donnell
8 James Coughlan

16 Duncan Casey
17 James Cronin
18 BJ Botha
19 Donncha O'Callaghan
20 Paddy Butler
21 Duncan Williams
22 JJ Hanrahan
23 Simon Zebo

2. Edinburgh
15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Douglas Fife
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Tom Brown
10 Greig Tonks
9 Greig Laidlaw (capt)

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 Willem Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Izak Van Der Westhuizen
6 Cornell Du Preez
7 Roddy Grant
8 David Denton

16 Aleki Lutui
17 Lodewicus Blaauw
18 Geoff Cross
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Tomas Leonardi
21 Grayson Hart
22 Carl Bezuidenhout
23 Joaquin Dominguez

Wayne Barnes??   

This will be a breeze. Thomond is always an easy place to pick up points in the HC.

I think I'll probably just tune in for the last 10 minutes, just to catch the Edinburgh players walking off the field of play with smiles on their faces, job done.

  Who is the bird representing Edinburgh?

Given how GC has completely half arsed this thread it could be anyone!   

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given how GC has completely aced this thread it could be anyone!    

Stop. You're making me blush.

Embra are getting a bit of backbone under Solomons (and a lot of Saffers it appears)

So Munster for a BP win, scoring as many tries as they need to cherry pick their qf opponent.

Edinburgh have been good recently, and I’d go as far to say against Perpignan we were very good, however it is still very early days and I can see a bad performance coming on soon, and I just hope it’s not this game.

This is probably going to be to the toughest game of the season so far – Munster away, with them needing a win to get a home quarter final. If we can do well in this game – and that doesn’t necessarily mean winning – then it really will be a sign that we are building something special.

One things for sure – our defence will have to be as good as it was against Perpignan.

(12:00 – 14:45) – 12:45 – Munster v Edinburgh - Heineken Cup Pool 6 - Sky Sports2
Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Assistant referees: Tim Wigglesworth (England), Roy Maybank (England)
Television match official: Sean Davey (England)


Always happy to help

Round 6!  Gotta love it

I reckon Edinburgh find out what it is like to suffer the wrath of a Munster side with a chip on their shoulder and a point to prove.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

So Munster for a BP win, scoring as many tries as they need to cherry pick their qf opponent.

Im afraid not. Not even a BP win will get us a home QF. Essentially we are dependent on Glasgow beating Toulon which I dont think is going to happen.

Does that suggest Munster won't quite have as much to play for as first thought?

I think Munster should treat this game as a reunion. I'd like to see John Hayes, Frankie Sheahan and Marcus Horan back together for the first time, with Quinlan, Wallace and Axel Foley in the back row.

No need to take this game seriously. We're only little old Edinburgh.....

BlueMuff wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

So Munster for a BP win, scoring as many tries as they need to cherry pick their qf opponent.

Im afraid not. Not even a BP win will get us a home QF. Essentially we are dependent on Glasgow beating Toulon which I dont think is going to happen.

nothing to do with a home qf or not. only the clermont game is to come after yours.

you will know exactly what you need to do. which team you will meet if you do it. whether home or away.

If toulon go down in flames in Glasgow you will be able to get a home qf.

"Essentially we are dependent on Glasgow beating Toulon which I dont think is going to happen."

Or the nature of the result between Zebre and Toulouse. Toulouse will win but if they don't  pick up a bonus point then Munster would leapfrog them by scoring 3 more tries than Toulouse.

Well from an Edinburgh point of view it is good that all the other games are before this one, so hopefully by the time we play Munster will know that there really isn't anything to play for. The last thing we want is Munster gunning for a 4 try BP.

Of course that will have meant that Glasgow will have lost, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make!   

MunsterMac wrote:"Essentially we are dependent on Glasgow beating Toulon which I dont think is going to happen."

Or the nature of the result between Zebre and Toulouse. Toulouse will win but if they don't  pick up a bonus point then Munster would leapfrog them by scoring 3 more tries than Toulouse.

I had pretty much banked on Toulouse scoring a bag full of tried here. CA are missing a few players against RM so that might be another slim chance that Clermont dont get BP.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well from an Edinburgh point of view it is good that all the other games are before this one, so hopefully by the time we play Munster will know that there really isn't anything to play for. The last thing we want is Munster gunning for a 4 try BP.

Of course that will have meant that Glasgow will have lost, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make!   

Likewise. Can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

I suppose the only real selection dilemma is what to do with Ross Rennie and Matt Scott. Both are coming back from injury, and both are in desperate need of gamtime, but given that we need to win this game does he make changes to a winning team?

In Matt Scott’s case I’d say most definitely. Atiga has been solid and reliable but we’re not going to lose much taking him out, and we can potentially gain a whole lot more.

I think Rennie is probably best served on the bench though. Roddy Grant deserves to keep his starting spot, and Rennie can come on after 50 mins or so and really raise the tempo of the team. I suspect the rest of the team will stay the same.

There is a marked contrast in the Solomons' approach to selection and the Toonie one - I simply don't get why GT cannot pick a team that he knows can win the match and stick with it?

No idea ASBO, but you hope he knows what he’s doing. Sometimes Solomons takes it to the extreme – I think one of the main reasons we lost the 1872 was that our players were knackered with 20 to go having played a lot of rugby leading up to it, and he didn’t sub any of them – but players make no secret of the fact they need several games in a row.  Indeed the players that probably need that the most are front row and half backs, and yet Townsend rotates them on a weekly basis!

If anyone has the time it would be interesting to work out how many time a front row or set of half backs have played together this year for Glasgow.

For Edinburgh I’d say 90% of their starting front rows has been Dickinson, Ford, Nel – for Glasgow thei highest % of games with the same front row must be less than 50%.

Must be hard for Weir and Jackson playing one week then benching the next.

maybe it's because he is barking mad?

RDW_Scotland wrote:I suppose the only real selection dilemma is what to do with Ross Rennie and Matt Scott.  Both are coming back from injury, and both are in desperate need of gamtime, but given that we need to win this game does he make changes to a winning team?

In Matt Scott’s case I’d say most definitely.  Atiga has been solid and reliable but we’re not going to lose much taking him out, and we can potentially gain a whole lot more.

I think Rennie is probably best served on the bench though.  Roddy Grant deserves to keep his starting spot, and Rennie can come on after 50 mins or so and really raise the tempo of the team.  I suspect the rest of the team will stay the same.

Rennie we know is fit as he played the whole game for Accies last weekend, he just needs game time at the higher level. Scott was pulled out late due to a twinge, I am sure they wont' risk him unless they are sure he is fit. Hard to believe that either is ready for 80 mins though, even if injury free.

Provided Scott is fit then bench them both I would say. Both really need a bit of game time if to play in the first international.

Interestingly SJ said "I'm sure Geoff Cross will get gametime this weekend" - i.e. "I've told Solomons to give him game time this weekend!"

Don't know if anyone has already posted this....

If both Scottish teams win this week. Leinster will likely get a home qf.

Even if Embra keep Munster under 4 tries and lose we have a chance.

Otherwise we are no hopers.   

Am hearing that Rosco's ma died recently and that he's been given as much time as he needs to deal with that

tigertattie wrote:maybe it's because he is barking mad?

You could look at it that way Tattie: I prefer to think of him as a genius. In the Niko mould.  

Edinburgh name the same squad as last week - so still no Matt Scott or Ross Rennie

RDW_Scotland wrote:Edinburgh name the same squad as last week - so still no Matt Scott or Ross Rennie

I hope Ross Rennie gets another run out with Accies to keep him ticking over. Matt Scott you would assume they don't want to risk.

But then again maybe he just does not wish to change a winning team. There is always something to be said for that!

There's changing a winning team, then there's picking Ross Rennie on the bench over Leonardi and Matt Scott over Dominguez!

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's changing a winning team, then there's picking Ross Rennie on the bench over Leonardi and Matt Scott over Dominguez!

I doubt that Scott was fit, or at least that they did not want to take a risk. better he sits this one out than misses a chunk of the 6 nations.

Rennie is a little more difficult to fathom, but with all that has been going on for him it is difficult to know exactly where he is at just now. Solomon's I expect has his own views on that. At the end of the day he is picking a team to try and win the game on sunday. He has proved that he is very much his own man in terms of selection and what he is doing seems to be working. I guess we have to run with that.

Coaches generally don't like to put an openside on the bench, covers only one position.

Solomons barely change the team after a loss, not surprised he goes for the same 23 here. Maybe good to get the best out of the players, you win you play next week!

So Macanally and Rennie off to join Bristol on loan for the rest of the season. I did not see that one coming but maybe it does make some sense. Both are undergoing changes on and off the field and perhaps they would be better achieved in a different environment, albeit with a coach they both know well and I think have a good relationship with.

It would be very easy to see this becoming a permanent move as well, especially if Bristol get themselves promoted. My daughter is at university in Bristol, so would be a chance to go down and see them!

Rennie?? Say it isn't so?

Very odd! McInally I can understand - good level of rugby against which to test his new hooking skills, but Rennie I just don't get. Surely he can't have been far away from getting back into the Edinburgh side, and finishing the season first choice.

Plus we're a Roddy Grant injury away from having to play inexperienced Hamish Watson, or moving out best player from 6 to 7!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Very odd! McInally I can understand - good level of rugby against which to test his new hooking skills, but Rennie I just don't get. Surely he can't have been far away from getting back into the Edinburgh side, and finishing the season first choice.

I think for Rennie this may be about more than the rugby, it does sound from his quotes almost like he wanted or instigated the move. All the injuries, which would have sunk a lesser player and then the recent bereavement may have made him feel that something needed to change.

Soloman's to his credit may have recognised that and hence willing to let him go. It is a loan deal, but you do wonder if he will come back, especially if Bristol go up.

Agree that we could lose him if Bristol go up. Whilst I'd like to see how he gets on in the Aviva, it would be a real shame to lose him. Together with Du Preez and Denton we could have a really excellent back row. Roddy Grant has stepped up this season though, and Hamish Watson showed signs last season of progression. With only two pro sides it's inevitable that some of our top players will move on to allow for other players to step up.

The flip side is McInally, and this move makes a lot of sense for him. Hopefully we can get him back next season as a hooker with good championship experience. I've yet to see much from Hilterbrand, and Lutui is not long for this Earth. Good opportunity for McInally.

funnyExiledScot wrote:and Lutui is not long for this Earth.

 

Let's not forget Steven Lawrie too, if he ever regains fitness!

Its still not clear what is happening with Ford next year either, does he stay or does he go? There are rumours of signing Neil Cochrane from Wasps for next year, which must surely mean some of the multitude of Hookers at Edinburgh must be moving on.

Laidlaw too - I would much prefer Laidlaw stayed than Ford, but given that we've got loads of Scottish scrum half in the wings it might not be too big a deal if he does leave.

Ford has been very good this season, but he is on far too much money so he will free up a lot of budget.

Saying that, from an Edinburgh point of view I'd love it if we could find a way to keep them and really build on this year - let's face it, both are high caliber players and we're not going to get a player of a similar standard coming through for a while.

The only issue for me if Laidlaw leaves is the goal kicking, and whether Bezzy, Tonks or Leonard will be able to fill that void. Cuthbert can kick to a reasonable standard, however that would mean he has to play. Whilst he's been far far better at 15 than on the wing, I still think that Tonks and Brown are ultimately better players at 15 (although I suppose if Tonks settles at 10 then it makes things easier for Cuthbert).

In terms of general scrum half play, I'm more than happy with Hart, H-C and Kennedy.

said it before and I'll say it again

Ford to go to prop next season

Team for next season:

1.Blauw 2.McInally 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.VdW 6.Du Preez 7.Grant 8.Denton 9.H-C 10.Tonks 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Strauss 14.Fife 15.Israel Dagg

Done.

funnyExiledScot wrote:The only issue for me if Laidlaw leaves is the goal kicking, and whether Bezzy, Tonks or Leonard will be able to fill that void. Cuthbert can kick to a reasonable standard, however that would mean he has to play. Whilst he's been far far better at 15 than on the wing, I still think that Tonks and Brown are ultimately better players at 15 (although I suppose if Tonks settles at 10 then it makes things easier for Cuthbert).

In terms of general scrum half play, I'm more than happy with Hart, H-C and Kennedy.

I have said it before and still think it, both Ford and Laidlaw should go. It is an unfortunate fact of life for us with our two pro teams that eventually some of our better players need to move on. They will do well out of it financially and so will the club by reducing its wage bill. More than that though it is the only way that we will ever see the new promising youngsters come through.

With Hart, SHC and Kennedy there are plenty of decent scrummies and assuming McInally steps up we would have him, Luteui, Turner and possibly Cochrane. I think that Lawrie may well have had one injury to many now as well and may be hanging up the boots.

Its a brave decision for a coach to make, Toonie to his credit did it with Barclay at Glasgow last year, but a big dollop of realism is what is required to be the coach of a Scottish Pro side. I don't think Solomans lacks in that score.

If we free up some money then we are still light in the prop department and the other player I would really like Edinburgh to sign would be Heathcote, who may still be the best bet for Scotland at OH. Don't forget he outplayed Ford in the A International last year and he is likely to get a full England cap in this 6 nations.

I think Glasgow should do the same and let one of Weir and Jackson go as well at the end of this year. I would prefer Jackson. I don't think he will ever find out what kind of player he will be until he tries to play somewhere else.

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:The only issue for me if Laidlaw leaves is the goal kicking, and whether Bezzy, Tonks or Leonard will be able to fill that void. Cuthbert can kick to a reasonable standard, however that would mean he has to play. Whilst he's been far far better at 15 than on the wing, I still think that Tonks and Brown are ultimately better players at 15 (although I suppose if Tonks settles at 10 then it makes things easier for Cuthbert).

In terms of general scrum half play, I'm more than happy with Hart, H-C and Kennedy.

I have said it before and still think it, both Ford and Laidlaw should go. It is an unfortunate fact of life for us with our two pro teams that eventually some of our better players need to move on. They will do well out of it financially and so will the club by reducing its wage bill. More than that though it is the only way that we will ever see the new promising youngsters come through.

With Hart, SHC and Kennedy there are plenty of decent scrummies and assuming McInally steps up we would have him, Luteui, Turner and possibly Cochrane. I think that Lawrie may well have had one injury to many now as well and may be hanging up the boots.

Its a brave decision for a coach to make, Toonie to his credit did it with Barclay at Glasgow last year, but a big dollop of realism is what is required to be the coach of a Scottish Pro side. I don't think Solomans lacks in that score.

If we free up some money then we are still light in the prop department and the other player I would really like Edinburgh to sign would be Heathcote, who may still be the best bet for Scotland at OH. Don't forget he outplayed Ford in the A International last year and he is likely to get a full England cap in this 6 nations.

I think Glasgow should do the same and let one of Weir and Jackson go as well at the end of this year. I would prefer Jackson. I don't think he will ever find out what kind of player he will be until he tries to play somewhere else.

Few comments on another thread (Transfers; Bath?) about the possibility of Heathcoate coming to Edinburgh, and Laidlaw going to Bath. Might be best for both of them.

BigGee wrote:I think Glasgow should do the same and let one of Weir and Jackson go as well at the end of this year. I would prefer Jackson. I don't think he will ever find out what kind of player he will be until he tries to play somewhere else.

The obvious solution would be for Jackson to move to Edinburgh, to allow both Jackson and Weir regular game time. Either that or have Edinburgh scoop up Heathcote, but with Bezzy, Leonard and now Tonks, Solomons might well feel that a high quality full back could be a better bet.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

BigGee wrote:I think Glasgow should do the same and let one of Weir and Jackson go as well at the end of this year. I would prefer Jackson. I don't think he will ever find out what kind of player he will be until he tries to play somewhere else.

The obvious solution would be for Jackson to move to Edinburgh, to allow both Jackson and Weir regular game time. Either that or have Edinburgh scoop up Heathcote, but with Bezzy, Leonard and now Tonks, Solomons might well feel that a high quality full back could be a better bet.

Bezzy is only here until the end of the year, but could be a good one to keep. I guess we will know more once he has had a bit more game time.

Don't forget that Tonks is actually a full back putting in a good shift at stand off. That still may well be his best position.

Agreed on Tonks. Too early to tell whether the shift will be a permanent one. I've liked what I've seen so far, and Cuthbert isn't disgracing himself at 15 either. Still, Heathcote at 10 and Tonks at 15 could be a better bet.

If we must lose Laidlaw, losing him to Bath and getting Heathcote in return sounds a half decent bet.