Scotland Fans' 2014 6N of hell Post-mortem

by Guest Sat 14 Dec 2013 - 7:40

First topic message reminder :

EDIT March 18th post-Scotland's capitulation to Wales

So, it's the end of the six nations. I have to say the intention of this early prediction thread was to calm all suppositions that Scotland might be anywhere near a threat this year. I have maintained that things look better with Cotter coming in (and hopefully not having to resort to 5th/6th choice wings, though that couldn't have been predicted).

Someone pointed out that in this last game if Wales had received the red card the scoreline would not have been the same in reverse. In fact I would be very worried that we still would have lost. To me it feels like it was an excuse to put the heads down/give Johnson the farewell he deserves.

Personally, I am lost for words. Not really sure where to go from here.

Anyone?

***

EDIT March 8th post-Scotland's capitulation to France.

Come hither one and all and we shall drink our sorrows away...

***
EDIT February 8th post-Scotland's capitulation to England & Ireland

I was right all along.

***

I got this in early because I did not want to see anybody from any nation suggest for any minute that Scotland has a chance of doing anything other than :

a) Cleaning their dirties in a smeg [White Wash]
b) Making lots of soup this winter [wooden spoon]
c) Scraping a win against Italy , in the dying seconds after a urine poor performance , which still might result in "b)" anyway.

No they did not beat Ireland. warning

No they did not beat England. warning

No they did not beat France. warning

No they did not beat Wales. warning

They might *look* like they are going to win to any outsiders no privy to the Scotland set up, but I guarantee you no sensible Scottish fan will be expecting anything but a, b & c this season.

Why?

We have an interim coach (for over a year!!!)who is more worried about what he says on camera than apparently coaching a sensible game plan
Our breakdown is awful
We have the psychological hardness of my nan - you don't know my nan but that's not good
Our best players are either never played in position, not allowed to play in the XXIII at all, or are just awful at the moment. Not making the injury excuse because frankly it doesn't apply with exception of 2 key players that might be back in time. Happens in every squad
etc, etc (feel free to add to this list)

So look, when we are compiling our 6N predictions this year, can we just for once all agree on something?

1. AN Other
2. AN Other
3. AN Other
4. AN Other
5. Maybe Scotland
6. Probably Scotland

Anyone mentions "dark horses" and "Scotland" in the same sentence without a negation clause in there somewhere (and you KNOW what I mean) I am getting our the knuckle dusters boxing

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 9:04

Another from the Herald Scotland:

Sycophants happy to reward failure . . .

by Kevin Ferrie

Nothing says more about the state of Scottish rugby, as those interested in its well-being reflect on yet another dismal RBS 6 Nations campaign, than the guaranteed promotion of the man who coached the national side.

For any leading rugby nation, one whose administrators genuinely believed that victory at next year's World Cup was achievable rather than merely saying so as part of some sort of misplaced public relations exercise, Scott Johnson's performance over the past two years would have brought the sack.

A member of the Scotland management team in 2012 - the year that brought an unprecedented pair of whitewashes in the Six Nations and the autumn series - his emergency elevation to head coach began with another losing Six Nations campaign.

A year on and his record reads: played 16, won five, lost 11. In a decade in which he has held three head coach posts in international rugby, his overall record is played 23, won six, drawn one, lost 16. Three of those five wins with Scotland were achieved against Italy, as was the draw, registered with Wales in 2006.

Further perspective is offered by that having been one of only two occasions that the Italians have avoided defeat away from home in a Six Nations match. It came the season after the Welsh, under Mike Ruddock, had been good enough to win the grand slam.

That Johnson remains in line to move "upstairs" as director of rugby, apparently with player support - they would say that about a prospective national director of rugby, though, wouldn't they? - is a measure of how expectations have plummeted. So, too, was the talk in some quarters of gutsiness and defiance in Saturday's performance.

Yet Scotland have faced a similar situation before in terms of being down to 14 men against Wales, and then, arguably, their prospects were decidedly worse.

Eight years ago, Scott Murray's departure left Frank Hadden's side with an hour to negotiate against a Wales team that had won the grand slam the previous year - and would do so again two years later - yet the Scots were beaten only 28-18.

Setting aside the fabled strategic target of winning the World Cup next year - when I specifically asked him last year, Mark Dodson, Scottish Rugby's chief executive, said he did know the difference between strategic and aspirational targets - the treatment of Johnson speaks to the lowering of expectations and standards across Scottish rugby.

It is hard to say whether the rendition of Flower of Scotland belted out by the kilted supporters caught on camera in the closing stages in Wales was defiant or ironic.

Either way, for it made for as uncomfortable viewing for any true competitor as the lap of honour in Rome's Stadio Olympico with which Scotland celebrated their avoidance of the wooden spoon a week earlier.

"It was a welcome win but seeing the chief executive and chairman dancing on the touchline at the end was embarrassing," one Scottish Rugby Union Council member admitted to me.

As for Saturday's events taken in isolation, the seriousness of the situation is not helped by the determined reasonableness of the punditry. Only Chris Paterson, who worked tirelessly to be positive about Scottish players individually and collectively, can know just how compromised he is in his dual role as SRU ambassador and BBC co-commentator.

Andy Nicol, though, has been around for long enough to come up with something better than seeking to mitigate Hogg's offence by claiming he is "not that sort of player". Sorry, Andy, he did it, which makes him exactly that sort of player. The key question is: why?

Just as the Scottish rugby community should be demanding to know how its money is spent, so licence payers should expect more in the way of analysis.

Was it, for example, evidence of a lack of discipline within the squad; or the result of too much of the sort of pandering management that allows players to forget their responsibilities; or an expression of the frustration of a talented player who is finding it difficult to cope with what is happening?

It is unfair to single out Nicol, though, because the Scottish rugby media and public as a whole should have offered far more scrutiny of what is going on long before now and, while they are the most obviously culpable, it is not just the players and their management who should be examined.

It is evident in the apparent need to depend upon players who have experienced far, far more in the way of failure than success in a Scotland jersey - some have played more than 50 times losing more than twice as often as they have won - that there is a pitiful lack of quality raw material.

Earlier this month, I was sent a message from a group seeking to re-establish the old Caledonia Reds as a third professional team on the basis that it would generate more opportunities for Scottish players.

In the meantime, greater realism is being provided by the eminently sensible Alan Solomons, the South African head coach of Edinburgh, who has realised that there simply is not enough quality available and he must build a team based around imports to provide a platform.

Thereafter, the best homegrown products to emerge from a properly-constituted academy will gradually be fed into a competitive squad.

This comes, though, after almost two decades of professional rugby during which no part of the game has seen real growth except the amount of money being paid to administrators, many of whom have been involved in the community and development side of the sport for much of that time.

Just as players enjoy being told what they want to hear - it explains why they may be keen to hang on to coaches who tell them how good they are no matter how poorly they play - the same applies in many failing organisations where senior executives surround themselves with sycophants. For years, I have pointed out that there is a problem in the SRU where those who consider themselves the great and the good reinforce one another while ignoring or shouting down external criticism.

Johnson's promotion under Dodson's leadership seems destined to ensure that remains the case, unless the wider rugby community can find a way of addressing it.

Both of these articles may seem a tad harsh, but in terms of hitting at the cozy world of Scottish rugby which is simply not producing the goods, you'd have to admit to a grain of truth about them

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 9:13

George Carlin wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
Right, I have stayed away as much as possible, and enjoyed the golf in the sun, followed by a BBQ and some beers with the Misses - did watch the game, but was in a good mood, so did not care

Just a healthy dose of reality here

Cotter may help develop the Scotland team, but I think the levels of assumption that the whole thing will come together may be a little naive - we have had many coaches and while they all having failings, we may have to accept we may not be that good (the only common denominator in the guff we have played for 10 years is the players).

Scott Johnson May actually be a good DOR - that may be where his skills are - we know they are not a team selector - so lets give him some time - he never wanted the Scotland Coach job - so I am prepared to judge him on the job he is hired for - rather than the one he stepped into to fill

I hope that we have an up ward curve and can start to become a force in rugby, but I think with only a few thousand players (and a mildy racist uncle) playing rugby in Scotland, the depth of the hole we are in, should not be ignored

Lets keep a level head, support the changes, and not get carried away that things will change over night - they may not
This was my post of the day, Risky and it makes a couple of very important points. I'm off to bed now, but I wanted to pick up on a couple of things.

Let's start with Scott Johnson. It's easy to make fun of him. There are plenty of large, slow moving targets. He has made clear mistakes with both tactics and selection. That's the professional side. As an individual, his personal qualities are clear. It's fairly well known that his wife died of leukaemia at only 27 - they had been married for less than 7 years and it meant that he had to bring up their two children by himself, which he did. He is one tough son of a gun and he provided (in addition to the myriad of quips about wrestling you for marbles and statistics being like a bikini) a dose of common sense and some measure of stability when some was desperately needed. He is not a rugby strategist or good selector but he is an excellent communicator and this is something that (as Risky says) may well stand him in good stead in his next position. Nobody actually knows anything about what the Director of Rugby post will involve. It will potentially be quite heavily involved in mending bridges between the club game, the schools game and the professional game and who is to say that he wouldn't be well suited towards getting everyone in a room talking. I am glad he isn't (or shouldn't be) anywhere near coaching strategy or selection but to suggest he doesn't have anything to offer or hasn't made at least some sort of positive contribution does him a disservice.

Now Cotter. The most important point of all is the one that Risky makes above (and a few other people have made). We're all quite a pragmatic bunch on these boards and I don't think any of us think that Cotter arriving will be a silver bullet in its own right. It just can't be. A head coach of the national side is supposed to reap the rewards of the training and development structure in place and mould the product of these systems into a side with a strategy that suits the players. The structure feeds what the team manager has to work with, and that is all. A good head coach cannot be a substitute for a bottom-up system which actually works. Cotter will make the best of what the system has produced despite itself and hopefully (and more importantly) will add to the collective stock of rugby brain in Scotland. I don't believe for one second that the likes of Alan Solomons isn't intimately involved with the proposed plans for restructuring the Scottish game. The SRU probably still remain in large part the proverbial coffin-load of worsted wearing, tufted, whisky sodden old goats but what you hope has sunk in by now is that they would be wise to leave the rugby to the rugby men in future.

OK lads, let's put the easy Johnson-bashing to one side for a second, but let's also not be fooled by what sounds like a tough life. How do we know that he is qualified for this job? It wasn't advertised but we are told that several potential candidates were interviewed and Johnson was the best one. I'm struggling to find a track record that directly supports that contention - can anyone supply details of his success with the Australian Institute of Sport, or with Australian rugby, or with Welsh rugby (and pls let's not wheel out the George North example again - the player is a once in a lifetime freak, in the nicest possible way!)? I'm happy to believe evidence that is presented to me, but less so to take it on good faith that the numpties in charge at the SRU have got it right this time - too often have we fallen for that, accepted mediocrity, only to decide two or so years down the track that we were right in the first place after all. Symptomatic of the 'Scottish disease' - instead we should be striving for more, much more - how does a country like NZ manage it, and what needs to be done to get us there, no matter how long it takes - start it now, get universal buy-in, set small achievable targets (instead of the we can win RWC 2015-like nonsense), celebrate their achievement, acknowledge when those targets aren't met and adjust accordingly.

by TJ Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 9:18

Aye - its a sair fecht

by **BigGee** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 9:28

I think we need to get away fro the idea that the Director of Rugby Role is a promotion. It is not, rather it is a parallel role whose focus should be to promote the growth of Scottish rugby generally. As others have said, we don't know what SJ is going to be like in this role, it may be he is far better suited to it.

I do agree though that he should not take on this role and a direct coaching role within the team. Firstly as I would imagine the DOR role to be a full time role and more. Try to do two jobs at once usually results in two jobs being done poorly.

As well it blurs the lines of responsibility and accountability, even more so with him having been recently in charge. I have been willing to give SJ a chance as coach and have agreed with many of the things he has tried to do, especially around getting new players capped even at the expense of results at times. You can't get away from the fact that it has ended badly though and he needs to step back now and let Cotter pick up the reins with his own chosen team. It is really hard to imagine that he would want his own, failed predecessor as part of his team.

Much as he may still enjoy getting the tracksuit on and getting out there. You would hope that SJ would also realise that to remain in this position is no longer tenable for him and he would step back. I would have a lot more respect for him if he was to do that.

by **Pal Joey** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 9:38

As,

To be honest, I'd never heard of him, or if I had, it was in a peripheral sense that went in one ear and out the other. He was pretty low key here.

As for the Institute of Sport - again, maybe he was involved (or visited there once or twice) but in what capacity I don't know.

The Parramatta Two Blues are very much the cellar-dwellers of the Shute Shield. So he didn't make much of an impact there as a player.

The Woodies (Eastwood) on the other hand - are a successful club. Top 3 or 4 in the last few years.
They won it again in 2011... long after SJ had moved on. Wink

They won in 2003 and 2004 but he was overshadowed by players like Jeremy Paul, Matt Dunning laughing

, Scott Fava, a young Ben Robinson, Justin Harrison, Bill Young... who all represented the Wallabies around that time (so were unavailable for the majority of the seasons) but they played matches at the pointy end - up to and including the Grand Final. Also, players like Matt Burke, Lachlan Turner and Scott Staniforth in the backs were of a much higher profile of course. He must have been very good at passing the ball... to give him some credit.

by **George Carlin** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 10:32

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
Right, I have stayed away as much as possible, and enjoyed the golf in the sun, followed by a BBQ and some beers with the Misses - did watch the game, but was in a good mood, so did not care

Just a healthy dose of reality here

Cotter may help develop the Scotland team, but I think the levels of assumption that the whole thing will come together may be a little naive - we have had many coaches and while they all having failings, we may have to accept we may not be that good (the only common denominator in the guff we have played for 10 years is the players).

Scott Johnson May actually be a good DOR - that may be where his skills are - we know they are not a team selector - so lets give him some time - he never wanted the Scotland Coach job - so I am prepared to judge him on the job he is hired for - rather than the one he stepped into to fill

I hope that we have an up ward curve and can start to become a force in rugby, but I think with only a few thousand players (and a mildy racist uncle) playing rugby in Scotland, the depth of the hole we are in, should not be ignored

Lets keep a level head, support the changes, and not get carried away that things will change over night - they may not
This was my post of the day, Risky and it makes a couple of very important points. I'm off to bed now, but I wanted to pick up on a couple of things.

Let's start with Scott Johnson. It's easy to make fun of him. There are plenty of large, slow moving targets. He has made clear mistakes with both tactics and selection. That's the professional side. As an individual, his personal qualities are clear. It's fairly well known that his wife died of leukaemia at only 27 - they had been married for less than 7 years and it meant that he had to bring up their two children by himself, which he did. He is one tough son of a gun and he provided (in addition to the myriad of quips about wrestling you for marbles and statistics being like a bikini) a dose of common sense and some measure of stability when some was desperately needed. He is not a rugby strategist or good selector but he is an excellent communicator and this is something that (as Risky says) may well stand him in good stead in his next position. Nobody actually knows anything about what the Director of Rugby post will involve. It will potentially be quite heavily involved in mending bridges between the club game, the schools game and the professional game and who is to say that he wouldn't be well suited towards getting everyone in a room talking. I am glad he isn't (or shouldn't be) anywhere near coaching strategy or selection but to suggest he doesn't have anything to offer or hasn't made at least some sort of positive contribution does him a disservice.

Now Cotter. The most important point of all is the one that Risky makes above (and a few other people have made). We're all quite a pragmatic bunch on these boards and I don't think any of us think that Cotter arriving will be a silver bullet in its own right. It just can't be. A head coach of the national side is supposed to reap the rewards of the training and development structure in place and mould the product of these systems into a side with a strategy that suits the players. The structure feeds what the team manager has to work with, and that is all. A good head coach cannot be a substitute for a bottom-up system which actually works. Cotter will make the best of what the system has produced despite itself and hopefully (and more importantly) will add to the collective stock of rugby brain in Scotland. I don't believe for one second that the likes of Alan Solomons isn't intimately involved with the proposed plans for restructuring the Scottish game. The SRU probably still remain in large part the proverbial coffin-load of worsted wearing, tufted, whisky sodden old goats but what you hope has sunk in by now is that they would be wise to leave the rugby to the rugby men in future.

OK lads, let's put the easy Johnson-bashing to one side for a second, but let's also not be fooled by what sounds like a tough life. How do we know that he is qualified for this job? It wasn't advertised but we are told that several potential candidates were interviewed and Johnson was the best one. I'm struggling to find a track record that directly supports that contention - can anyone supply details of his success with the Australian Institute of Sport, or with Australian rugby, or with Welsh rugby (and pls let's not wheel out the George North example again - the player is a once in a lifetime freak, in the nicest possible way!)? I'm happy to believe evidence that is presented to me, but less so to take it on good faith that the numpties in charge at the SRU have got it right this time - too often have we fallen for that, accepted mediocrity, only to decide two or so years down the track that we were right in the first place after all. Symptomatic of the 'Scottish disease' - instead we should be striving for more, much more - how does a country like NZ manage it, and what needs to be done to get us there, no matter how long it takes - start it now, get universal buy-in, set small achievable targets (instead of the we can win RWC 2015-like nonsense), celebrate their achievement, acknowledge when those targets aren't met and adjust accordingly.

Scotland Fans' 2014 6N of hell Post-mortem - Page 16 Conver12

, Asbo my boy. Fair comments. I think all I'm saying is that we shouldn't assume he'll be bad at this new job until we give him a chance to actually do it. I suspect that it's one of those positions where it's what you make of it, rather than there being some sort of binary and limited specification. Surely it's undeniably that some sort of overview leadership is what's been missing amongst the McBumferties in FES' Stockbridge wine bars over the past decade.

I think the point about his experience is less that he achieved superlative results as a coach, more than he saw others do that using systems, academies and training regimes that literally nobody in the Scottish game has any direct experience of. That's not to say success will be bred automatically, just that if all you're seen is the inside of the gym at the Greenyards or Millbrae, your frame of reference as to what's possible is inevitably more limited.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 10:39

True that, GC

by tigertattie Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 11:51

Sooooooooooooooo

what now? Back to the Rabo till summer?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 13:22

Nah, we can choose our 32-man squads for the summer tour of the America and South Africa (injuries permitting)!

by tigertattie Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 14:12

Good shout

Players who need a rest
Ryan Grant
Jim Hamilton
One Direction Denton
Laidlaw
Weir
Dunbar
Hogg

Players who need to tour for experience/gametime
Dr Cross
Gray Jnr
Gilchrist
Harley
Barclay
Rennie
Finn Russell (yes FES, the youngster - give him a run in a summer game)
Scott
Bennett
Visser
Maitland
Tonks

I've always been a beleiver that the summer tour is the best place to try out fringe players or bring injured/castaway players back into the fold.

Do we want to do that this time though given that Cotter will be ariving and this will be his first chance to work with the boys? Given the limited time he has before the world cup, should we be sending out the guys that will potentially be the world cup squad???

by **George Carlin** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 14:17

Would also bring Grant Shiells (if fit, I heard that he was injured in the Saxons game) and Alex Allan.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 14:31

Oh yes, definitely time for Alex Allan to pull on a Scotland jersey. He's pounded the fields of the Rabo12 for long enough. Now it's time for him to face the Boks.....

by tigertattie Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 14:36

funnyExiledScot wrote:Oh yes, definitely time for Alex Allan to pull on a Scotland jersey. He's pounded the fields of the Rabo12 for long enough. Now it's time for him to face the Boks.....

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 14:41

We've got a World Cup next year and SJ has wasted two years. No experimenting please.

My 34-man squad for the summer tour:

Props: Cross, Murray, Low, Welsh and Dickinson
Hookers: Lawson, Ford and MacArthur
Second row: Gilchrist, J Gray, R Gray and T Swinson
Blindside: Strokosch, Brown and Harley
Openside: Rennie and Barclay
Number 8: Denton and Beattie
Scrum Half: Cusiter, Laidlaw and Kennedy
Fly Half: Weir and Jackson
Inside Centre: Scott and Taylor
Outside Centre: Dunbar and Bennett
Wing: Visser, Maitland, Fife and Seymour
Full back: Hogg and Tonks

The tricky game will be the match against the Boks, as I understand only Glasgow and Edinburgh players will be available. Here's my 23 for that game:

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Cross 4.Swinson 5.J Gray 6.Harley 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Cusiter 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Dunbar 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Low 17.MacArthur 18.Welsh 19.Gilchrist 20.Kennedy 21.Jackson 22.Fife 23.Tonks

by tigertattie Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 14:53

No backrow cover in that 23 vs the Bok?

If it will be only Edinburgh and Weegie players availble then someone like Strokes or Brown is going to need to drop out the Squad and Wilson perhaps taking the spot?

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 14:55

Happy to call-up Wilson as cover for the final match - I was only picking from my original 34-man squad. In an emergency Swinson could cover 6 with Gilchrist coming on.

Perhaps Vernon could come along and provide unique versatility to cover centre and the back row.

by **George Carlin** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:04

funnyExiledScot wrote:Oh yes, definitely time for Alex Allan to pull on a Scotland jersey. He's pounded the fields of the Rabo12 for long enough. Now it's time for him to face the Boks.....

I was actually just suggesting that they train with the squad, but I should have known better how that particular catnip would have gone down with you. Scotland Fans' 2014 6N of hell Post-mortem - Page 16 Squabb11

Scotland Fans' 2014 6N of hell Post-mortem - Page 16 Squabb11

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:08

George Carlin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Oh yes, definitely time for Alex Allan to pull on a Scotland jersey. He's pounded the fields of the Rabo12 for long enough. Now it's time for him to face the Boks.....
I was actually just suggesting that they train with the squad, but I should have known better how that particular catnip would have gone down with you.

Oh I see, just tagging along for the ride. I suppose that will help him develop. Could take Hidalgo-Clyne, Leonard, Russell et al along as well. Nice little holiday for them. Nice sandy beaches in the US.

by **RDW** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:09

I don't think anyone should be rested from the summer tour, especially since not many of the players are guaranteed their starting spot.

by **RDW** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:12

funnyExiledScot wrote:We've got a World Cup next year and SJ has wasted two years. No experimenting please.

My 34-man squad for the summer tour:

Props: Cross, Murray, Low, Welsh and Dickinson
Hookers: Lawson, Ford and MacArthur
Second row: Gilchrist, J Gray, R Gray and T Swinson
Blindside: Strokosch, Brown and Harley
Openside: Rennie and Barclay
Number 8: Denton and Beattie
Scrum Half: Cusiter, Laidlaw and Kennedy
Fly Half: Weir and Jackson
Inside Centre: Scott and Taylor
Outside Centre: Dunbar and Bennett
Wing: Visser, Maitland, Fife and Seymour
Full back: Hogg and Tonks

The tricky game will be the match against the Boks, as I understand only Glasgow and Edinburgh players will be available. Here's my 23 for that game:

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Cross 4.Swinson 5.J Gray 6.Harley 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Cusiter 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Dunbar 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Low 17.MacArthur 18.Welsh 19.Gilchrist 20.Kennedy 21.Jackson 22.Fife 23.Tonks

Cusiter and Low will be unavialable, and by the sound of things Jackson, Rennie and Cross will be off somewhere too so unavilable.

As that game is technically in next season, anyone moving to a new club will be unavailable.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:26

Hmmm, I hadn't banked on that. That actually makes selection for the Bok game quite tricky.

1.Dickinson 2.Ford 3.Welsh 4.Swinson 5.J Gray 6.Harley 7.Fusaro 8.Denton 9.Hart 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Dunbar 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Allan (GC will be delighted) 17.MacArthur 18.Reid 19.Gilchrist 20.Wilson 21.Kennedy 22.Horne 23.Tonks

Hmmm, hope the Boks rest a few for this one.

by **BigGee** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:27

Not sure what the point is of putting a full strength team out against USA and Canada or what it is going to tell us. There surely will be some fringe players included in these games. You would imagine that the Pumas game is the only one that we will see a full strength side out due to the restrictions that will be in place for the SA game.

Mind you we were a few players short against them last summer and it did not seem to do us any harm.

by **BigGee** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:30

funnyExiledScot wrote:Hmmm, I hadn't banked on that. That actually makes selection for the Bok game quite tricky.

1.Dickinson 2.Ford 3.Welsh 4.Swinson 5.J Gray 6.Harley 7.Fusaro 8.Denton 9.Hart 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Dunbar 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Allan (GC will be delighted) 17.MacArthur 18.Reid 19.Gilchrist 20.Wilson 21.Kennedy 22.Horne 23.Tonks

Hmmm, hope the Boks rest a few for this one.

Will big Mike Cussack be SQ by then? Maybe Euan Murray will be back in a Glasgow shirt as well!

by **George Carlin** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:33

funnyExiledScot wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Oh yes, definitely time for Alex Allan to pull on a Scotland jersey. He's pounded the fields of the Rabo12 for long enough. Now it's time for him to face the Boks.....
I was actually just suggesting that they train with the squad, but I should have known better how that particular catnip would have gone down with you.

Oh I see, just tagging along for the ride. I suppose that will help him develop. Could take Hidalgo-Clyne, Leonard, Russell et al along as well. Nice little holiday for them. Nice sandy beaches in the US.

Had to open a window and let some of that sarcasm out. Did one of your domestics spill your Earl Grey on your Bang & Olufsen again this morning?

by **George Carlin** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:33

BigGee wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Hmmm, I hadn't banked on that. That actually makes selection for the Bok game quite tricky.

1.Dickinson 2.Ford 3.Welsh 4.Swinson 5.J Gray 6.Harley 7.Fusaro 8.Denton 9.Hart 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Dunbar 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

16.Allan (GC will be delighted) 17.MacArthur 18.Reid 19.Gilchrist 20.Wilson 21.Kennedy 22.Horne 23.Tonks

Hmmm, hope the Boks rest a few for this one.

Will big Mike Cussack be SQ by then? Maybe Euan Murray will be back in a Glasgow shirt as well!

Big Mike is SQ in July, as I recall.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:37

Grim reading,

SKY wrote:
http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/14261/9219189/six-nations-review-we-take-a-look-at-the-numbers-behind-the-tournament

Four - The top try count recorded by England's Mike Brown and Jonny Sexton of Ireland.

66 - Total points tally recorded by Sexton, the competition's highest

61 - Total tries by the six teams in this year's contest

16 - The number of times ruthless Ireland crossed the whitewash to score, more than any other team.

138 - The points clocked up by this year's top scorers England.

21 - The number of tries hapless Italy conceded as they finished with this campaign's worst defensive record.

172 - Italy's total points-against count.

Four - The number of tries the rock-solid Irish gave away.

49 - The points conceded by Ireland across five games, three less than Italy shipped in one afternoon against England

Zero - Scotland's score count against England, the first time they had failed to register a point against the Auld Enemy since 1978.

Three - The number of yellow cards clocked up by France as they lost Nicolas Mas, Louis Picamoles and Sebastien Vahaamahina to the sin bin during the tournament

One - Italy, France and Scotland all suffered red-card shame this year as Michele Rizzo, Rabah Slimani and Stuart Hogg were dismissed.

543 - The metres gained by England full-back Mike Brown across his side's five fixtures.

65 - Total carries by Ireland's rampaging Irish No 8 Jamie Heaslip.

340 - Conor Murray's pass count for Ireland.

70 - The tackle tally Quintin Geldenhuys was forced to put in for Italy's under-pressure defence.

14 - Number of times Scotland's Duncan Weir fell off a tackle.

10 - Turnovers conceded by French full-back Brice Dulin.

Six - The number of times Scotland prop Moray Low was guilty of giving away a penalty.

48 - Wales' winning margin over Scotland as they crashed to their heaviest ever defeat in the competition with Saturday's 51-3 hammering in Cardiff.

63 - The total points scored in England 's 52-11 win over Italy in Rome, the highest of this year's Six Nations.

81,835 - The crowd who turned out at Twickenham for England's 13-10 win over Ireland.

Basically we made pretty much no positive impact on the 6N this year.

14 times Weir fell off a tackle. Utterly unacceptable.

by tigertattie Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:38

RDW_Scotland wrote:I don't think anyone should be rested from the summer tour, especially since not many of the players are guaranteed their starting spot.

I think some players are going to need it though. Burn out and all that. Denton has played alot of rugby this season. So too Ryan Grant.

imagine if Nel was SQ by now. He'd be utterly pooped. While players like Cross really need the excercise!

by **RDW** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 15:48

Thinking about it more, we might be really struggling at tighthead - Alex Allan might not be too far from facing the beast after all! Cusak will help, bit we're only an injury or two away from really struggling for that game.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:00

BigGee wrote:Not sure what the point is of putting a full strength team out against USA and Canada or what it is going to tell us.

Whether our full strength team can play together, score tries and actually win a game or two?

If we had a settled 1st XV then I'd be happy to tinker around the edges to finalise the World Cup squad, but we are nowhere near that. We are in complete disarray with no recognisable tactics or style of play, and very few settled combinations.

by **RDW** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:02

Sj has capped 16 players in the last year - we've introduced plenty players to the international scene, it is time to find the 15 that goes together best!

Plus there's no way we can treat Canada and USA as an easy ride.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:13

funnyExiledScot wrote:
BigGee wrote:Not sure what the point is of putting a full strength team out against USA and Canada or what it is going to tell us.

Whether our full strength team can play together, score tries and actually win a game or two?

If we had a settled 1st XV then I'd be happy to tinker around the edges to finalise the World Cup squad, but we are nowhere near that. We are in complete disarray with no recognisable tactics or style of play, and very few settled combinations.

= mahoosive problem. So Uncle Vern has 11 games plus the 2015 summer tour and any friendlies that are organised for before RWC 2015 to get it sorted

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:19

I'm fairly certain Mr Cotter will have seen enough to have some Idea of who/what works and who/what doesn't work.

He might have his hands full at Clermont but he's not an idiot. We've had plenty of them over the last 14 years.

Think he'll bring Wagga over with him into a coaching role?

by Majestic83 Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:23

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sj has capped 16 players in the last year - we've introduced plenty players to the international scene, it is time to find the 15 that goes together best!

Plus there's no way we can treat Canada and USA as an easy ride.

Exactly, we want to stop tampering about with the team now and put out our strongest line up as often as possible and try build some momentum and confidence.
The USA and Canada could be tricky games but we want to put out very strong teams against them and hopefully we will run in a few tries and start to build some condifence.

by Shifty Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:35

I know what Scotland do wrong against Wales. Simply put, they always try and beat us up and be overly physical.
We're bigger, stronger, faster, and fitter and have more talent and they simply can't do it.

Wales have lost 1 of the last 12 games to Scotland which really is shocking, considering historically it's a 50/50 game.

The only game where Scotland have outplayed Wales recently was in 2010 when we won 31-24 with that Shane Williams try in stoppage time.

15 Mar 2014 Wales 51 - 3 Scotland
09 Mar 2013 Scotland 18 - 28 Wales
12 Feb 2012 Wales 27 - 13 Scotland
12 Feb 2011 Scotland 6 - 24 Wales
13 Feb 2010 Wales 31 - 24 Scotland
08 Feb 2009 Scotland 13 - 26 Wales
09 Feb 2008 Wales 30 - 15 Scotland
10 Feb 2007 Scotland 21 - 9 Wales
12 Feb 2006 Wales 28 - 18 Scotland
13 Mar 2005 Scotland 22 - 46 Wales
14 Feb 2004 Wales 23 - 10 Scotland
30 Aug 2003 Wales 23 - 9 Scotland

The scores tell you Wales have had it far too easy, for far too long to be honest.

by **BigGee** Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:46

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
BigGee wrote:Not sure what the point is of putting a full strength team out against USA and Canada or what it is going to tell us.

Whether our full strength team can play together, score tries and actually win a game or two?

If we had a settled 1st XV then I'd be happy to tinker around the edges to finalise the World Cup squad, but we are nowhere near that. We are in complete disarray with no recognisable tactics or style of play, and very few settled combinations.

= mahoosive problem. So Uncle Vern has 11 games plus the 2015 summer tour and any friendlies that are organised for before RWC 2015 to get it sorted

I would not say we have no settled combo's, other than half backs, or more precisely FH, we all have a pretty good idea what our backline should be when injury free. That does not mean to say we don't want to see what Hart, Bennett or even Vernon look like within it. We have also got to have some other option available at FH, so that means playing someone else, be it Jackson, Heathcote, Russell or even Laidlaw in some of the games.

We have actually got a fairly settled front row now with 4 decent props and Lawson looking like he is taking the hookers spot. We also have decent options in the second row. Back row is where we are still very unsettled and that needs to be worked out. There are not many, if any new players that are going to come into the set up this side of the world cup. VC job is going to be getting tactics and game plans that suit the ones we have got and getting them to play to their potential.

Without underestimating the North American games, we are going to win them and they will be used to try some different combos, the ones that work well should be brought together for the much harder trial against Argentina, which also should be a winnable game. Just running up a big score in these games, while making us feel good is not really going to tell us very much. The players need to know that these are trails for the bigger tests to come, impress in those games and you are into the first team!

by cakeordeath Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:49

Shifty wrote:I know what ~~Scotland~~ Wales do wrong against ~~Wales~~ [Insert SH team here]. Simply put, they always try and beat them up and be overly physical.
We're bigger, stronger, faster, and fitter and have more talent and they simply can't do it.

Fixed that for you Shifty
Run

by Shifty Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:50

cakeordeath wrote:
Shifty wrote:I know what ~~Scotland~~ Wales do wrong against ~~Wales~~ [Insert SH team here]. Simply put, they always try and beat them up and be overly physical.
We're bigger, stronger, faster, and fitter and have more talent and they simply can't do it.

Fixed that for you Shifty

That's totally true! Doh

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 16:54

Shifty wrote:I know what Scotland do wrong against Wales. Simply put, they always try and beat us up and be overly physical.
We're bigger, stronger, faster, and fitter and have more talent and they simply can't do it.

Wales have lost 1 of the last 12 games to Scotland which really is shocking, considering historically it's a 50/50 game.

The only game where Scotland have outplayed Wales recently was in 2010 when we won 31-24 with that Shane Williams try in stoppage time.

15 Mar 2014 Wales 51 - 3 Scotland
09 Mar 2013 Scotland 18 - 28 Wales
12 Feb 2012 Wales 27 - 13 Scotland
12 Feb 2011 Scotland 6 - 24 Wales
13 Feb 2010 Wales 31 - 24 Scotland
08 Feb 2009 Scotland 13 - 26 Wales
09 Feb 2008 Wales 30 - 15 Scotland
10 Feb 2007 Scotland 21 - 9 Wales
12 Feb 2006 Wales 28 - 18 Scotland
13 Mar 2005 Scotland 22 - 46 Wales
14 Feb 2004 Wales 23 - 10 Scotland
30 Aug 2003 Wales 23 - 9 Scotland

The scores tell you Wales have had it far too easy, for far too long to be honest.

It's not. Of the 119 games played between the two countries, the records show Wales have won 68, Scotland 48, with 3 draws, a 57% win ratio for Wales; even adjusting for the last 12 games, it reads Wales 57, Scotland 47, 3 draws and a 53% win ratio

But I certainly agree that Wales have had it "far too easy for far too long"

by R!skysports Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 17:18

George Carlin wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
Right, I have stayed away as much as possible, and enjoyed the golf in the sun, followed by a BBQ and some beers with the Misses - did watch the game, but was in a good mood, so did not care

Just a healthy dose of reality here

Cotter may help develop the Scotland team, but I think the levels of assumption that the whole thing will come together may be a little naive - we have had many coaches and while they all having failings, we may have to accept we may not be that good (the only common denominator in the guff we have played for 10 years is the players).

Scott Johnson May actually be a good DOR - that may be where his skills are - we know they are not a team selector - so lets give him some time - he never wanted the Scotland Coach job - so I am prepared to judge him on the job he is hired for - rather than the one he stepped into to fill

I hope that we have an up ward curve and can start to become a force in rugby, but I think with only a few thousand players (and a mildy racist uncle) playing rugby in Scotland, the depth of the hole we are in, should not be ignored

Lets keep a level head, support the changes, and not get carried away that things will change over night - they may not
This was my post of the day, Risky and it makes a couple of very important points. I'm off to bed now, but I wanted to pick up on a couple of things.

Let's start with Scott Johnson. It's easy to make fun of him. There are plenty of large, slow moving targets. He has made clear mistakes with both tactics and selection. That's the professional side. As an individual, his personal qualities are clear. It's fairly well known that his wife died of leukaemia at only 27 - they had been married for less than 7 years and it meant that he had to bring up their two children by himself, which he did. He is one tough son of a gun and he provided (in addition to the myriad of quips about wrestling you for marbles and statistics being like a bikini) a dose of common sense and some measure of stability when some was desperately needed. He is not a rugby strategist or good selector but he is an excellent communicator and this is something that (as Risky says) may well stand him in good stead in his next position. Nobody actually knows anything about what the Director of Rugby post will involve. It will potentially be quite heavily involved in mending bridges between the club game, the schools game and the professional game and who is to say that he wouldn't be well suited towards getting everyone in a room talking. I am glad he isn't (or shouldn't be) anywhere near coaching strategy or selection but to suggest he doesn't have anything to offer or hasn't made at least some sort of positive contribution does him a disservice.

Now Cotter. The most important point of all is the one that Risky makes above (and a few other people have made). We're all quite a pragmatic bunch on these boards and I don't think any of us think that Cotter arriving will be a silver bullet in its own right. It just can't be. A head coach of the national side is supposed to reap the rewards of the training and development structure in place and mould the product of these systems into a side with a strategy that suits the players. The structure feeds what the team manager has to work with, and that is all. A good head coach cannot be a substitute for a bottom-up system which actually works. Cotter will make the best of what the system has produced despite itself and hopefully (and more importantly) will add to the collective stock of rugy brain in Scotland. I don't believe for one second that the likes of Alan Solomons isn't intimately involved with the proposed plans for restructuring the Scottish game. The SRU probably still remain in large part the proverbial coffin-load of worsted wearing, tufted, whisky sodden old goats but what you hope has sunk in by now is that they would be wise to leave the rugby to the rugby men in future.

Thank you : kiss

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 17:58

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm fairly certain Mr Cotter will have seen enough to have some Idea of ~~who/what works and~~ who/what doesn't work.

Just a minor correction Radge.

by EWT Spoons Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 19:46

BigGee wrote:

Without underestimating the North American games, we are going to win them and they will be used to try some different combos, the ones that work well should be brought together for the much harder trial against Argentina, which also should be a winnable game. Just running up a big score in these games, while making us feel good is not really going to tell us very much. The players need to know that these are trails for the bigger tests to come, impress in those games and you are into the first team!

As much as I'd like to agree the N.America games are certainties, I don't think realistically we can currently. Get the team winning first and if we happen to be in a position to try some fringe players from the bench during a match then great. But after that 6 nations we need to rebuild confidence and get the team playing well and winning, in my opinion.

by 123456789 Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 20:33

funnyExiledScot wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Oh yes, definitely time for Alex Allan to pull on a Scotland jersey. He's pounded the fields of the Rabo12 for long enough. Now it's time for him to face the Boks.....
I was actually just suggesting that they train with the squad, but I should have known better how that particular catnip would have gone down with you.

Oh I see, just tagging along for the ride. I suppose that will help him develop. Could take Hidalgo-Clyne, Leonard, Russell et al along as well. Nice little holiday for them. Nice sandy beaches in the US.

Jonny Wilkinson and many others were regularly asked to train with the national side prior to their official call-ups, and the same happened with Steven Gerrard in football; as a result it meant they could train at International standard and become aware of what they needed to do and become comfortable in the environment without the pressure of selection or a big game. But of course before one can become affiliated with the national set up one should be at least 25 and have years of Pro12 experience despite the fact you've offered little to suggest that you can make the step up, won't become first choice and will only be taking up the space of a younger, more talented player who can offer more in years to come and could make full use of the experience. Why take Mark Bennett when you could take De Luca eh?

by funnyExiledScot Tue 18 Mar 2014 - 22:52

I have actually advocated that Bennett tour, and not just for a sun tan. I just don't see the real benefit of paying for player to tag along who are not deemed good enough for the squad.

To be clear, I fully support the initiative during the 6 nations. Costs us nothing and gets players used to the environment. But dragging them across 3 continents at great expense? Not a shrewd use of resource. Still, happy for Allan to tour instead of Scott Johnson..….

by **George Carlin** Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 7:06

funnyExiledScot wrote:I have actually advocated that Bennett tour, and not just for a sun tan. I just don't see the real benefit of paying for player to tag along who are not deemed good enough for the squad.

To be clear, I fully support the initiative during the 6 nations. Costs us nothing and gets players used to the environment. But dragging them across 3 continents at great expense? Not a shrewd use of resource. Still, happy for Allan to tour instead of Scott Johnson..….

Totally. Why do we have a Sevens team, again?

by **RDW** Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 8:01

Craig Chalmers sent a few tweets to Lee Byrne asking if Cotter would make a difference to Scotland.

Byrne said he absolutely would, and that the team should remember to bring their mouth guards to every training! Sounds like Cotter is in favour of physical training sessions, and Byrne even said they have full 15 on 15 games twice a week at training!

Obviously there are greater demands on squad management at international level, given that most players can't train half the week because they are puggled, but does sound like he is going to bring a real physical approach.

Bit different from the Frank Hadden era then!

by tigertattie Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 8:56

If anyone in Edinburgh (or near by cares) there is an open debate in Napier Uni tonight about Scottish Rugby.

Panel includes the SRU VP, Frank Hadden, Rory Lamont and Duncan Hodge.

You can find details on napier's facebook page or the change at the SRU page (dare say a few of those boys will be rocking up)

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 9:05

George Carlin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I have actually advocated that Bennett tour, and not just for a sun tan. I just don't see the real benefit of paying for player to tag along who are not deemed good enough for the squad.

To be clear, I fully support the initiative during the 6 nations. Costs us nothing and gets players used to the environment. But dragging them across 3 continents at great expense? Not a shrewd use of resource. Still, happy for Allan to tour instead of Scott Johnson..….
Totally. Why do we have a Sevens team, again?

No Sevens team no Richie Vernon. Worth its weight in gold.....

by EWT Spoons Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 9:08

For those unable to access Facebook at work (me), here is the event Tattie is talking about mentioned in the evening news:

Evening News wrote:The first steps on the long road to recovery for Scottish rugby might just be taken at Napier University’s Sighthill Campus lecture theatre tomorrow night.

Up to 300 enthusiasts with an interest in the future of the oval ball game can be accommodated at an Open Forum, entitled Scottish Rugby – attitudes and opinions. It has been organised through SRU vice president Ian Rankin, pictured below, who will take part in a question and answer session alongside recently retired internationalist Rory Lamont, current Scotland kicking coach and former cap Duncan Hodge, and ex-national mentor, Frank Hadden. If, as they say, feedback is the breakfast of champions, then a positive feast could follow – as Rankin acknowledges.

This former Edinburgh manager and coach cannot be accused of hiding away in any ivory tower, but admits it is a curious quirk of timing, with an event put together some months ago now falling within days of Scotland suffering a record Six Nations defeat after going down 51-3 against Wales in Cardiff.

Debate is expected to be lively. “It is important to hear what people have to say about all aspects of rugby and for Napier University to be able to showcase their sport and exercise science facilities covering a range of sports,” said Rankin. “So far as rugby is concerned, Napier have worked with the likes of Mike Blair and Chris Paterson through to current stand-off Duncan Weir in measuring them for the power of their kicking as well as other ways of improving technique – we are grateful for that.

“I had previously attended guest lectures at Napier University when the idea was put to me that rugby could follow on from other sports in having this type of event.

“So far as the panel is concerned, Rory has just finished playing and has current insight into different techniques employed at the clubs he represented such as Toulon, Sale and Glasgow. Likewise, Frank Hadden has done rugby development work abroad (notably in Mongolia and Africa) as well as having international coaching experience.

“Basically we are going to be talking about all aspects of rugby and I expect questions to be asked on a range of topics.”

Among the items likely to be brought up are those bouncing around social media in the wake of the Cardiff calamity, although Rankin was keen to focus on the key moment in that game: Stuart Hogg’s early dismissal.

“We could not have asked for a worse time for it [the sending off] to happen. Wales have a back line that is hard enough to contain without trying to do so with 14 men.”

High on the agenda is likely to be a further push for an integrated schools/youth competitive structure, which was actually mandated by an SRU annual meeting a couple of years ago but has not yet been followed through by the governing body. There are also many now clamouring for a re-structuring along the lines of New Zealand rugby, where six elected officials represent 26 provincial unions and 500 clubs nationwide on the board.

This is currently being highlighted by one former internationalist who is wary of straying on to a public platform, but is able to point out that, by comparison, the Scottish Rugby Union is made up of roughly 190 clubs who are equal voting stakeholders and their majority support is required to push through any fundamental change. The consequence of this, he says, is that clubs do not feel sufficiently linked to the two professional teams by means of a district tier which would allow late developers to demonstrate their claims for contracts and provide Scotland with a more competitive element to the annual British and Irish Cup.

Financing of further pro teams in a move back to the original concept of four is also high on the agenda and the influential Change For Scottish Rugby pressure group have been quick to seize on quotes attributed to Aberdeen Asset Management chief executive Martin Gilbert that his company would support the creation of a pro team based in Aberdeen.

Finding a competitive outlet for any new Scottish team is bound to be an issue, but Gilbert’s perceived interest comes against a background of previous involvement as sponsors of the Edinburgh team in both the Heineken European Cup and RaboDirect PRO12.

• FOR details of tomorrow’s forum, email Sarah Manning at s.manning@napier.ac.uk

by funnyExiledScot Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 9:08

RDW_Scotland wrote:Craig Chalmers sent a few tweets to Lee Byrne asking if Cotter would make a difference to Scotland.

Byrne said he absolutely would, and that the team should remember to bring their mouth guards to every training! Sounds like Cotter is in favour of physical training sessions, and Byrne even said they have full 15 on 15 games twice a week at training!

Obviously there are greater demands on squad management at international level, given that most players can't train half the week because they are puggled, but does sound like he is going to bring a real physical approach.

Bit different from the Frank Hadden era then!

I think it'll do the squad some good. We seem to be a distant second in the contact area against almost every side we face, so something does need to be done.

Under Frank Hadden the Scotland players never seemed to leave the gym!

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 19 Mar 2014 - 9:09

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Byrne said he absolutely would, and that the team should remember to bring their mouth guards to every training! Sounds like Cotter is in favour of physical training sessions, and Byrne even said they have full 15 on 15 games twice a week at training!

That's what I want to hear. We do seem to be a bit "saft".

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