Scotland Fans' 2014 6N of hell Post-mortem

EDIT March 18th post-Scotland's capitulation to Wales

So, it's the end of the six nations. I have to say the intention of this early prediction thread was to calm all suppositions that Scotland might be anywhere near a threat this year. I have maintained that things look better with Cotter coming in (and hopefully not having to resort to 5th/6th choice wings, though that couldn't have been predicted).

Someone pointed out that in this last game if Wales had received the red card the scoreline would not have been the same in reverse. In fact I would be very worried that we still would have lost. To me it feels like it was an excuse to put the heads down/give Johnson the farewell he deserves.

Personally, I am lost for words. Not really sure where to go from here.

Anyone?

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EDIT March 8th post-Scotland's capitulation to France.

Come hither one and all and we shall drink our sorrows away...

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EDIT February 8th post-Scotland's capitulation to England & Ireland

I was right all along.

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I got this in early because I did not want to see anybody from any nation suggest for any minute that Scotland has a chance of doing anything other than :

a) Cleaning their dirties in a smeg [White Wash]
b) Making lots of soup this winter [wooden spoon]
c) Scraping a win against Italy , in the dying seconds after a urine poor performance , which still might result in "b)" anyway.

No they did not beat Ireland.  
No they did not beat England.
No they did not beat France.  
No they did not beat Wales.  

They might *look* like they are going to win to any outsiders no privy to the Scotland set up, but I guarantee you no sensible Scottish fan will be expecting anything but a, b & c this season.

Why?

• We have an interim coach (for over a year!!!)who is more worried about what he says on camera than apparently coaching a sensible game plan
  
• Our breakdown is awful
  
• We have the psychological hardness of my nan - you don't know my nan but that's not good
  
• Our best players are either never played in position, not allowed to play in the XXIII at all, or are just awful at the moment. Not making the injury excuse because frankly it doesn't apply with exception of 2 key players that might be back in time. Happens in every squad
  
• etc, etc (feel free to add to this list)
  

So look, when we are compiling our 6N predictions this year, can we just for once all agree on something?

1. AN Other
2. AN Other
3. AN Other
4. AN Other
5. Maybe Scotland
6. Probably Scotland

Anyone mentions "dark horses" and "Scotland" in the same sentence without a negation clause in there somewhere (and you KNOW what I mean) I am getting our the knuckle dusters    

I think this is probably pretty fair. The 2 pro sides are hardly giving us cause for optimism.

  Great post. I did feat for yous when Scot 'The riddler who talks a good game' Johnson turned up.

Can Scotland build on their 3rd place in the 6N or will 2014 be a false new dawn? No mention of that in the OP.   

I see the shortened days are darkening your mood. Go in with low expectations as you expect a crashing thud from 3rd place. Scotland for you are not dark horses but clear donkeys. The problem is, despite what you see as realism, if Scotland win any other match, you have excluded yourself from celebrating their win. You must instead don a Black Beauty outfit and parade yourself through the streets of your next opponents shouting Scotland are comin ta geet ya.

If, on the other hand, your forecast of doom is correct, you will have to sit in your house with drawn curtains for the rest of the winter, muttering to yourself I was right, I was right.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Scotland won't get the wooden spoon in one match. One game at a time. We all want to know what is going to happen in the future but doom and gloom or boasts of Grand Slams have often turned out to be proved otherwise. Supporting a team that doesn't win much is difficult. It took the Black Caps 11 matches to get a victory. But if you abandon all hope, you abandon all rights to celebrate when they prove you wrong. Kia kaha, loosely translated as   

What's Scotland's schedule this year? Who do they play home and who have they got away?

Ireland away
England home
Italy away
France home
Wales away

The year where could (more) legitimately contend for the title as we don't travel well to Twickenham or Paris but in the same breath no 'easy' targetable fixtures if there ever are with a team this crap

I'll be honest, the title had me worried.

Sadly I agree with the op, I say sadly because I really wish I could disagree and put forward a case for us doing well. However, the AIs and the form of our pro sides suggests we'll be getting another spoon to add to our rather large, but massively spoon orientated, cutlery collection.

That said if Scott & Visser are back and Hogg and maits can find their form, we might be ok.

I'll be worried when Scotland come to Cardiff still. Particularly if we have lost a few games by then, seeing as we don't play you second for once.

Hard to disagree, given the way the AI's went and the dour form of Edinburgh & Glasgow it could be another long tournament for us.

.Ireland first up is a very daunting prospect.Giving the job they did on NZ's breakdown in the first 50 odd minutes it could be utter carnage given how ineffective we've become in that department. Real risk of a hammering in Dublin.

.England at Murrayfield. Well as the say for that fixture form goes out of the window, which is just as well. Positive omen I've been at 2 Caluctta Cup matches to date (2006 & 2008) and we've won both. I'm going to this one... Ergo easy 6 point win!

. Italy away. Well they looked pretty dire in the AI's. Thumped by Australia. Just managed to beat a Fijian side that played part of the match with 11 men! And then lost to a poor Puma outfit. Possible chance of a rare away win.

. France at Murrayfield. Erm... probably lose that one it an entertaining game.

. Wales away. Recent from V Wales is terrible. Lose

I think it depends almost entirely on which team we put out if it's something along the lines of:

Grant, Ford, Murray, Swinson, Gray, Brown, Rennie, Beattie, Laidlaw, Cusiter, Weir, Visser, Scott, Bennett, Maitland, Hogg

then we have a very good chance of pushing for the places higher up in the table. However if we play the likes of Kellock, Hamilton (simply because he costs us at least six points a game from stupid penalties), Denton (if he isn't in the right mood), Pyrgos (he's very average), Jackson ( he's mercurial but unlike Townsend the positives don't come close balancing out the negatives), Taylor (see Pyrgos), De Luca (combine Hamilton and Jackson) and Lamont (great player in his day but doesn't have the acceleration for the wing or the intelligence for a centre).

If you think Ireland are good then you're forgetting the drubbing they got from Australia. One advantage they'll have is having a fit squad and settled combo's due to their provincial set-up (each team playing the same brand of rugby under a kiwi coach, and playing pretty well). A result for Scotland wouldn't be out of the question, if you at least put in a performance then you have something to build on. It could come down to one of the old dog-fights Vs England if they're still without their backline and that would give Scotland the advantage IMO. Italy away is a possible, France in their current form and playing in Edinburgh is probable. Given the record since I've been watching rugby I can't see you beating Wales  , really hope you don't come and spoil our Grand Slam party  .

I'd say third or fourth is a realistic goal. Also, I never understood the optimism from fans when Johnson stepped in. The guy is all talk and no show. I expect an immediate improvement when Cotter steps in.

Scotland are dark donkeys. Bottom half of the table, but they can ruin someones Grand Slam/Championship bid with a big one-off performance. No telling who.

Glad you got in early ineffable before any silly talk started about Scotland being title challengers  

If SJ ever plucks up the courage to decide on whether to drop Kelly eye brows or play him in his best position (6) and some of our key players rediscover the difference between their arse and their elbow form wise, then I think we'll be competitive.

'competitive' is as much as I'm willing to go with just now.

Oh come on...we all know Scotland are favorites for the title this year..dont try to play down your chances    

Long shot here, but bear with me.

For the past few years we’ve been tagged as ‘dark horses’ going into the 6 nations and generally we’ve not been up to much.  For the coming tournament we’ve pretty much been written off by  everyone, myself included a few posts back, I wonder if that will now work in our favour.  Maybe all we need to actually do well is to be seen as no threat whatsoever, maybe this is our year!

I’d like to point out there is no logic or real reasoning behind this post, it is purely just Monday morning pre coffee ramblings….but you never know, we might not be as bad as we all think.

On paper we should at least be competitive, we have some very decent, verging on good, players (in some cases) so in theory if those players can play to the levels they’re capable of, then we should at least not be finishing with another wooden utensil come the end of the tournament.

I seem to have come over mildly optimistic this morning, for no obvious reason.

I’d accept 1 win, would be delighted with 2, ecstatic with 3 and any more than that is well beyond the realms of possibility so no point even considering it.

Scotland have some very good players. All teams can beat each other this year i think...so who knows what will happen.

It's a funny old world and Scotland are a funny old rugby team!

When we are labelled as dark horses, there is a certain level of expectation as a result. The players then crumble into bubbling school bairns and we get a drubbing in nearly every match.

When we are written off as usless diddies that wont amount to anything, the players then seem to get rather angry and decide "oh really, well we'll show you".  They then put in a couple of half decent performances and for all intense purposes they "showed us"

So. We need everyone to keep going on about how urine we are. We need the BBC to launch a hate campaign on Scottish rugby and we'll then do quite well!

Utterly barmy the way we perform these days!

I'm still putting us down to finish fourth!

Scotland seem to be a poor man's Ireland. Whilst Wales and England are not afraid to set their sights high, Ireland and Scotland seem to be the exact opposite championing the underdog tag and going to great pains to write off their chances. I'm all for realism but sometimes I think Wales and England would be served better by putting their heads down in training and letting their performance on the field serve as expression of their intent, whereas Ireland and Scotland would be better served with some steely resolve and instead of writing off their chances, approach the game with a determination of winning. So much emphasis is placed on the physical aspects of the game whereas frustratingly little is done ostensibly to prepare players in a mental way for their games. 1 or 2 games is good enough for us. Realistic perhaps but useful no. Your only focus is the next game and giving yourselves the best chance of winning regardless of the opposition.

2013 - 3rd with 2 wins
2012 – 6th with no wins
2011 – 5th with 1 win
2010 – 5th with 1 win
2009 - 5th with 1 win
2008 – 5th with 1 win
2007 – 6th with 1 win
2006 – 3rd with 3 wins
2005 – 5th with 1 win
2004 – 6th with no wins
2003 – 4th with 2 wins
2002 – 4th with 2 wins
2001 – 3rd with 2 wins
2000 – 5th with 1 win

If it wasn’t for Italy we would have had a lot of wooden spoons!

I really had no idea our record was that bad. That is an appalling record!

 

thats all I have to say about that

What happened in 2001 - 2003?? We had a great run of it then!

It shows how inconsistent Scotland are as a nation when in 1999 we went from 5N champions to 5th place in 2000 with only 1 win. We all remember which win that was though!   

That is a shocking set of results.

To follow on from an earlier point, when we’re dark horses we crumble and do nothing, when we’re labelled as no hopers we come out fighting in the first match show that we should maybe be respected, get tagged as dark horses for the 2nd game onwards and crumble again.  It’s a terrible circle of pain.

I think we need to get 2 wins this year to show any level of consistency/improvement.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I’d accept 1 win, would be delighted with 2, ecstatic with 3 and any more than that is well beyond the realms of possibility so no point even considering it.

If Edinburgh can beat Glaws at the Shed, with Atiga and Cuthbert to the fore, then frankly anything is possible.

I'm going to the opener in Dublin. Absolutely crucial we start well and take some confidence back to Murrayfield against England.

Cuthbert is coming onto his game   

EWT Spoons wrote:Long shot here, but bear with me.

For the past few years we’ve been tagged as ‘dark horses’ going into the 6 nations and generally we’ve not been up to much.  For the coming tournament we’ve pretty much been written off by  everyone, myself included a few posts back, I wonder if that will now work in our favour.  Maybe all we need to actually do well is to be seen as no threat whatsoever, maybe this is our year!

I’d like to point out there is no logic or real reasoning behind this post, it is purely just Monday morning pre coffee ramblings….but you never know, we might not be as bad as we all think.

On paper we should at least be competitive, we have some very decent, verging on good, players (in some cases) so in theory if those players can play to the levels they’re capable of, then we should at least not be finishing with another wooden utensil come the end of the tournament.

I seem to have come over mildly optimistic this morning, for no obvious reason.

This is very, very dangerous thinking because we have been here before, people have said that exact same thing and the result is we still maintain a dark horses status underneath the guise of a "we'll be rubbish". It doesn't count. I'm here to stamp out this kind of nonsense before the 6N begins. Anything more like this Spoons and I'll have to issue you a yellow card   

Scotland will always hold the dark horses tag till they prove otherwise. Scotland go under the radar and makes them potentially dangerous. Can't write off Scotland.

With both England and France at home and Italy away there's a potential for 3 realistic wins there.

Anyone know how france have been fairing of late?

They were truely awful in the last 6Ns. We really should have beaten them to be honest!

France being France will either be hot or cold when they rock up to Murrayfield!

beshocked wrote:Scotland will always hold the dark horses tag till they prove otherwise. Scotland go under the radar and makes them potentially dangerous. Can't write off Scotland.

With both England and France at home and Italy away there's a potential for 3 realistic wins there.

Sshhhhhhhh didn't you read the OP? None of that chat please!

tigertattie wrote:France being France will either be hot or cold when they rock up to Murrayfield!

Edinburgh in March - I suspect they'll be cold.

Sorry that is terrible weather based chat.

Tramptastic wrote:

beshocked wrote:Scotland will always hold the dark horses tag till they prove otherwise. Scotland go under the radar and makes them potentially dangerous. Can't write off Scotland.

With both England and France at home and Italy away there's a potential for 3 realistic wins there.

Sshhhhhhhh didn't you read the OP? None of that chat please!

Thank you thank you tramp; I am not the only dark horse moderator on these boards thank goodness.

To add to above post, just to be clear, we are going to bomb.

I'm not saying that in the hope of it being wrong. We *are* going to bomb.

I'm afraid I am going to have to adopt this stance for the entire build up to the 6N on whatever thread. Sorry, need to balance with realism.

lets all become Namiba fans???

Ineffable wrote:To add to above post, just to be clear, we are going to bomb.

I'm not saying that in the hope of it being wrong. We *are* going to bomb.

I'm afraid I am going to have to adopt this stance for the entire build up to the 6N on whatever thread. Sorry, need to balance with realism.

Make a Christmas video and state openly that you think they're all pooh and you're just being realistic when you say they'll beat only Italy and even that's iffy. I'm sure that'll lift their spirits...

Scotland can't beat England at murrayfield.

They can beat Italy away.

Ireland and Wales both lack the consistency to guarantee themselves victory over any opposition.

That just leaves France - the most erratic team in world rugby. Scotland might not beat France, but France could lose enough games (as last year) to rule themselves out of the running.

I could see Scotland taking out a points victory in the 6N if and only if they play England at home and France are away to Wales.

When that happens, id pen them in as dark horses to win.

Why can't we beat England at Murrayfield exactly?

tigertattie wrote:Why can't we beat England at Murrayfield exactly?

To be fair it has been a wee while, 2008 we won, 2010 we drew and 2012 we had an experienced team that lost to the English youth...

^indicative of how terrible we will do this six nations, not winning any points at all!

what could happen, as has happened for the past 6 years, we have lost the majority of our games by a score which results in a final thump on the last weekend. It must be so demoralizing for the team to lose by a little every week, being so blooming close to winning!

A big factor will no doubt be injuries. If England are without Corbisiero, Barritt, Tuilagi, Wade and Yarde, particularly Tuilagi, then I say we have a shot at it (on the basis that we are relatively injury free). We got stuffed last year because we picked a huge and slow pack, whereas England set off with the same speed and intensity that toppled New Zealand, leaving us off the pace.

I used to fear England coming to Murrayfield (in the after 1990 it became a bit of a procession for England), but a good run of games in the late 00's has taken that fear away. We usually raise our game, and if we get the selections and balance of the team right, we'll cause them some problems. Stuart Hogg finding form would be a huge help.

If it is hissing down and in a gale there is every chance of a win or two as there is not a big difference in any of the packs, with a good kicking 10 who knows e.g., Australia!

Scotland have to target this game because of English injuries, there is always an upset in the 6 Nations and i predict this one ail be a Scottish win. If the Scots take it to them up front and win the set piece then anything i spossible

I'm Irish, but Scotland gave me some of my earliest and fondest memories of rugby at a time when Ireland were pretty pants (late 1980's - 1990's).

I can still picture David Sole walking his troops out THAT day. Used to love players like Jeffries, Calder, Hastings brothers etc. They just typified what I thought it meant to be Scottish - HARD!

I hope for your sake you can recapture some of that grit this year to eek out some results - just not against Ireland.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Ineffable wrote:To add to above post, just to be clear, we are going to bomb.

I'm not saying that in the hope of it being wrong. We *are* going to bomb.

I'm afraid I am going to have to adopt this stance for the entire build up to the 6N on whatever thread. Sorry, need to balance with realism.

Make a Christmas video and state openly that you think they're all pooh and you're just being realistic when you say they'll beat only Italy and even that's iffy. I'm sure that'll lift their spirits...

Kia RE this post and your others on this thread, I do admit I see sense in what you're saying - being a supporter is about being a supporter and being positive and all that. I will, hand on heart, be cheering Scotland through all of the 6N and convinced we CAN beat any of the sides. I just don't think we will.

We can use this thread to make me eat my words if Scotland claim more than 2 wins this 6N : 1 win proves my point, 2 wins I would actually be happy with but dark horses it makes us not. For Scotland's recent 6N form 3 wins would count as my being wrong; after all that's beating more than half of the competition.

These Scotland boys are supposed to be professionals. How do you think NZ would respond if they got messages from their fans saying "you'll be pi$h" ? They would turn around and say "well the results say different" / "we'll show you" and practically ignore it. If you're suggesting it would get Scotland down and make them worse then by goodness we need a psychologist in the Scotland camp. Just like a kicker slotting a conversion in the dying minutes,, he pays no attention to the world around him - he does his job, because he knows he can do it. Something I don't see in Scotland with any consistency; in fact Scotland are incredibly consistent in pulling off the occasional upset and otherwise throwing games!

san wrote:I'm Irish, but Scotland gave me some of my earliest and fondest memories of rugby at a time when Ireland were pretty pants (late 1980's - 1990's).

I can still picture David Sole walking his troops out THAT day. Used to love players like Jeffries, Calder, Hastings brothers etc. They just typified what I thought it meant to be Scottish - HARD!

I hope for your sake you can recapture some of that grit this year to eek out some results - just not against Ireland.

Are you suggesting that Rhuriadh Jackson, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Max Evans and Tim Visser aren't "hard"??

Fair enough.

Calder was a brute. I recall him absolutley throttling a number of Irish players. Found it hard to like him but he was really good. Used to love watching Scotland back then too. They had some team. Great memories.

Look at it this way. Our standard XV is probably (visser/lamont/Scott injured) Hogg, Maitland, Dunbar, Scott, Seymour, Weir, Laidlaw; Grant, Ford, Murray, Swinson, Gilchrist, Brown, Rennie, Denton.

Those in bold have had good form.

Now I'm worried.

Glasgow is seriously out of form and I can't see a convincing revival of their fortunes by the 6N.

Now what soup can I make whilst I do a heavy washing.  

I played against Findlay Calder once when I was a young lad and he was getting towards retirement. I was a cocksure teenager confident that he was too old and slow to trouble me right up until he smashed me ruffled my hair and wandered off. Not very happy memories of him for me.

Chat in the papers yesterday that Cotter wants to persuade Hines to return. I wonder whether that's at lock or flanker??

Hines may be an answer to our lineout woes I suppose

Nothing will be the answer to our anything until at least Vern Cotter actually arrives. 5th or 6th place is round the corner.