The Essential James Toney?

I think for a lot of us, there are certain fighters that, for some reason or another, slipped through the cracks. Fighters you should be very familair with, but are not. For me, this is James Toney.
 
I don't really know why he is a great. I have seen some footage of his fights, but not much. I scan his record and see various losses throughout his prime and I wonder what makes him a future HOF fighter.
 
So, what are the Essential James Toney fights I should watch so as to fully appreciate his talent?
 
What made him so brilliant?

Errrr not entirely sure.

He was one of the most talented fighters around back in his prime, if memory serves.

just managed to waste it all though thanks to a lack of discipline.

Talent is nothing if not applied in the ring. Andre Dirrell is argubly the most talented SM in the world, but he has done nothing in the ring worth speaking of soit counts for zip in my book. Toney must have dones something, otherwise why is he such a big name.

Semi-related but someone sent me the link to this last week and I'd never seen it before. Pretty cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rds2-iNML00

Overrated fighter. His mouth makes up for his deficiencies. His best win is Barklay. The same Barklay who got wasted by Benn in 150 seconds.

azania wrote:Overrated fighter.  His mouth makes up for his deficiencies.  His best win is Barklay. The same Barklay who got wasted by Benn in 150 seconds.

Then why is he so rated? Why does RJJ get so much credit for beating him?

Careful, this could change peoples opinion of RJJ's best win...

Toney was a wonderfully talented boxer. His talent was obvious watching him box. He became lazy and wasted a lot of his talent.

Cos he's a former P4P#1, middleweight, supermiddle, cruiser, and HW champ. His skills were ridiculous, much better than Mayweather's IMO, just didn't have the dedication.

Seanusarrilius wrote:

azania wrote:Overrated fighter.  His mouth makes up for his deficiencies.  His best win is Barklay. The same Barklay who got wasted by Benn in 150 seconds.

Then why is he so rated? Why does RJJ get so much credit for beating him?

I have no idea. Not a huge fan of his. RJJ's best win was BHop.

azania wrote:Overrated fighter.  His mouth makes up for his deficiencies.  His best win is Barklay. The same Barklay who got wasted by Benn in 150 seconds.

And who in turn wasted Hearns. Swings and roundabouts.

Just glad I've got here in time before milkyboy starts commenting!

I thought Toney was exceptional at 168 before running in to a peak Roy - it's odd that, often, that fight seems to be the biggest stick to beat Toney with for many of his bigger critics. Me, I consider the gift he got against Tiberi, the lazy effort against Griffin (II) and the absolute farce against Thadzi as far more damaging blots on his record.

Az is right in saying that Barkley had already been shown to be wholly beatable, but in fairness nobody had completely dissected him like that at championship level before. That fight, along with his victory over Charles Williams, were Toney's highlights at Super-Middle and were good enough for some people to start considering him as a serious candidate for the pound for pound number one spot by 1994. Those fights show a bit of everything in Toney's arsenal; inside fighting, great defence, excellent punch accuracy and a cutting edge, too, as shown by the knockout punch against Williams.

Though he was less impressive at 160, the fights against Nunn, Johnson and McCallum (I) all are a good indicator, albeit in different ways, of the promise he had at that early stage of his career. This was when he was still trim and in great fighting shape, mind you! One of the most notable things about the young Toney is that, very often, he could produce big finishes in the championship rounds to swing fights which were going against him (or were in the balance) in his favour. He did it in all three of those fights and the first McCallum fight was a really high-quality, technical one.

Unfortunately, there really isn't too much to get excited about after that until the Jirov win up at Cruiser, which was his last really top class hurrah. Hell of a fight and some of Toney's inside work and countering in close was fantastic.

Half a dozen fights there which, if you're a Toney fan like myself, make for good viewing!

There's a video on iFilm London of him being interview by Kugan about Prizefighter which is apparently classic Toney. I haven't watched it yet myself.

88Chris05 wrote:Just glad I've got here in time before milkyboy starts commenting!

I thought Toney was exceptional at 168 before running in to a peak Roy - it's odd that, often, that fight seems to be the biggest stick to beat Toney with for many of his bigger critics. Me, I consider the gift he got against Tiberi, the lazy effort against Griffin (II) and the absolute farce against Thadzi as far more damaging blots on his record.

Az is right in saying that Barkley had already been shown to be wholly beatable, but in fairness nobody had completely dissected him like that at championship level before. That fight, along with his victory over Charles Williams, were Toney's highlights at Super-Middle and were good enough for some people to start considering him as a serious candidate for the pound for pound number one spot by 1994. Those fights show a bit of everything in Toney's arsenal; inside fighting, great defence, excellent punch accuracy and a cutting edge, too, as shown by the knockout punch against Williams.

Though he was less impressive at 160, the fights against Nunn, Johnson and McCallum (I) all are a good indicator, albeit in different ways, of the promise he had at that early stage of his career. This was when he was still trim and in great fighting shape, mind you! One of the most notable things about the young Toney is that, very often, he could produce big finishes in the championship rounds to swing fights which were going against him (or were in the balance) in his favour. He did it in all three of those fights and the first McCallum fight was a really high-quality, technical one.

Unfortunately, there really isn't too much to get excited about after that until the Jirov win up at Cruiser, which was his last really top class hurrah. Hell of a fight and some of Toney's inside work and countering in close was fantastic.

Half a dozen fights there which, if you're a Toney fan like myself, make for good viewing!

Chris, I would never be so unsympathetic as to get in ahead of one of your eulogies. It just wouldn't be cricket.

I actually do rate toney as a talent, but too many bum nights in his prime, or too many times in his prime where he didnt showcase those skills or wasn't allowed to.

superflyweight wrote:

azania wrote:Overrated fighter.  His mouth makes up for his deficiencies.  His best win is Barklay. The same Barklay who got wasted by Benn in 150 seconds.

And who in turn wasted Hearns.  Swings and roundabouts.

Wasted Hearns but was probably 20-16 down when he did it.......Some wasting........

Pathetic mismatch till the lottery winner came a long..

In fairness to Barkley, he wasn't the useless lump that he's sometimes painted as these days. Kept Nunn pretty honest (and upset Arum in the process, always a bonus) , outboxed an ageing (but still only a few months removed from his win over Hill) version of Hearns, beat a few title holders etc.

The Benn result was a bit of an anomaly, I think. Benn got away with some clearly illegal stuff which went unpunished and he seemed to catch Barkley a little cold, too. I'm not saying that Benn couldn't beat Barkley in other circumstances, just highlighting that the result and the manner of it didn't give an accurate representation of where each man was at by 1990.

Barkley was always going to lose more than he won against the very best of the bunch, and the tag of 'three weight world champion' flatters him massively - but at the same time, it perhaps makes people go too far the other way in an effort to compensate. He was no superstar, but he wasn't a bum, either.