Zinzan Brooke, David Campese and Richard Hill discuss the build-up to the QBE Internationals

By Mick Cleary for The Telegraph 29 Oct 2013



If the World Cup were to start next week who would win?

Zinzan Brooke New Zealand.

Richard Hill New Zealand.

And what about in two years’ time?

RH New Zealand.

DC One of the top five sides.

Come on Campo, not like you not to nail your colours to the mast.

DC You asked me a question and I’m giving my honest answer. Let me see – South Africa.

ZB New Zealand.

DC Of course he is going to say that.

ZB Why would you not?

DC Because of their history at World Cups.

ZB Yeah, well, even so.

DC You can’t ignore it. And no team has won back-to-back World Cups.

You are that confident of the All Blacks still being that dominant in two years’ time?

ZB Yes, I am. You just look at the way they have played this year, the mix of players coming through, it’s exceptional.

You don’t see it that way, Campo?

DC I actually thought that the Blacks would struggle this year because of the older player problem, like Ma’a Nonu, Richie McCaw, but they have all stood up and are bloody good again. They have got so many good players they can slot in.

If McCaw gets injured, they have got Sam Cane, you’ve not lost anything. Same with Dan Carter. See how Beauden Barrett came through. They have got that confidence, they have got that structure.

I suppose England have got home advantage but it depends what they want to do with how they play. Australia, well it’s probably a year too early. But when it comes to the big games, the big moments, the Aussies are always dangerous.

ZB The best team doesn’t necessarily win the Rugby World Cup. We’ve seen that time and again.

RH Oh, cheers mate.

So, do England have a decent chance in two years’ time?

RH Of course. Look at how far they’ve come since the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand. There has been a dramatic turnaround. Stuart Lancaster has come in, done a good job, changed the environment, changed the culture, and changed selection.

And the QBE Internationals will show us that?

RH Exactly. We will see where they are. Some of that change has been structured, some of it enforced. It’s a great chance to see how the likes of Billy Twelvetrees and Joel Tomkins go.

DC Where is the X-factor? Who is going to give England that?

RH This is the opportunity to find out.

How important then in the context of the 2015 Rugby World Cup are the QBE Internationals? It’s so important for England to lay down a marker, isn’t it, especially against Australia who are in their World Cup pool [as are Wales]?

ZB Hell, up to last week I was thinking that Australia were a bit lame. There wasn’t much strength there, not much sign of a game plan. I thought they would have no chance here. But just on how they played against the All Blacks in Dunedin, I’ve changed my view of them.

DC What has happened with Australia is that there is some respect back in there. I agree with Zinny. On the back of that performance, I would make Australia favourites going in against England on Saturday.

This is England, at Twickenham, against an Australian side that has won only three of its last 10. How can you say that?

DC Australia have been together for ages, played Test after Test, come through a Lions series, then a Rugby Championship. Australia arrive with a bit of momentum.

ZB I’d go with that, too. I don’t want to come over all New Zealandish but look at what happened three weeks ago, what New Zealand did to South Africa in Johannesburg, that was as good as I’ve ever seen. Last week was right up there as well.

Those are the standards you are measuring against. Australia are in good shape. What have the England players had? A couple of weeks of Heineken Cup. Fair enough. Not a bad level. But it’s not Test rugby. You might think England the front-runners but you write off Australia at your peril.

Yes, but England have got to make a statement at their principal World Cup venue?

RH What about fatigue? Australia have played and played and played.

DC Australia have copped so much crap back at home they’ve got to keep going. The supporters have deserted them because they have not been respectful to the jersey.

ZB Campo, what is the most difficult game on tour? Easy. It is the last one. Not the first one, right?

DC That showed last year. New Zealand just wanted to go home.

Come on, you’re not pulling that one. England trounced them fair and square.

ZB That is not the point I was making. I was just saying that Australia will not lack for motivation. This is the start for them, not the end. The Aussies will have all the motivation in the world coming to Twickenham. They will want to put one over on England.

DC The thing is that [Wallaby coach] Ewen McKenzie knows what this game means. He knows what it means to beat England.

Who are the players that have got to come through for England. They’ve had good moments.

DC Excuse me, they’ve had a good moment. Singular. Moment. They beat New Zealand.

Well, there has been a bit more than that.

DC No, after beating the All Blacks like that, they should have gone on and killed everyone in the Six Nations. They didn’t build on it.

ZB What happened in that Wales game?

RH The scrum did not provide the platform it ought to have done. And Wales did handle the emotion of the day far better.

ZB Why? Why? Serious questions.

It is all about attitude, was that England’s failing?

DC Not entirely. I don’t think England know what their best combinations are yet. Does the back-row work well together, and then through that to the half-backs. In big games, that’s what you need. In the days when you had a Jonny Wilkinson and a Jeremy Guscott, you’d say, hell, two dangerous players there.

But when you look at England now, you’ve got a No 10 who doesn’t attack the line so that is easy. So that’s your defence sorted out. You need the opposition to put pressure on you.

Zinny, you know the English scene well. Are there good young players here? How can New Zealand keep producing while England seem to struggle?

DC Because New Zealanders get one crack at it. If you stuff it up you never play again.

ZB True. They don’t.

RH Hang on again, there are players coming through. Marland Yarde. Christian Wade, there’s two. Yarde is a player who excites me. He’s got good physicality but he also has feet and a turn of speed. He’s got real prospects.

ZB OK, Hilly, give me your England spine, right now. 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15.

RH Well...

ZB You should not have to hesitate. That’s a sign in itself. Your 2003 team had a spine that everyone knew you, Lawrence, Dawson...

RH OK, Tom Youngs at hooker, Chris Robshaw at 7.

ZB OK, up against McCaw or Cane. Give me No 8, Kieran Read it is for NZ.

RH Billy Vunipola has been better of the two No 8s in the Premiership [Ben Morgan the other], Ben Youngs and Owen Farrell, then looking like Mike Brown at full-back.

ZB Agreed on Brown, but to be fair you’ve had a bit of hesitation coming up with that.

Do I sense that you two southerners are not too bullish about England’s chances?

DC Why should we be?

ZB Agreed.

What will it take for that to change? England to win all three games?

DC They have to win, but win with authority.

ZB Can’t just grind it out.

RH I’d say if they win the first two and put in a decent performance in the third that will be acceptable.

DC Isn’t that revealing? ‘Put a good performance in...’ We’d be saying, we’ve got to win every game.

That was a wounding defeat [38-21] for the All Blacks last year against England wasn’t it Zinny?

ZB It was mate, it was. But watch the revenge.

DC Yeah, bring that on, it’s going to be a big one.

ZB I can tell you what it was like in 1993 when he lost 15-9 at Twickenham. That was a knife between the shoulder blades. The post-match function that night. Mate, we hated that function. The wound was already deep. For the next 18 months we were burning inside.

We just could not wait until the next time we played England. When it came, the 1995 World Cup semi-final in Cape Town, there was not a word said in the changing rooms beforehand, not a word. We just put the England jersey up there. The scoreline. 15-9. It all came flooding back. That was the motivation.

So last year won’t be written off as an aberration, illness in the camp and all that, end of a long year?

ZB None of the guys used the illness excuse. There is no doubt that the mission will be to beat England.

How are Australia looking, Campo? What are you going to do now that Robbie Deans has gone as coach? Nothing to complain about.

DC Thank God for that. Deans was a Kiwi. He knew nothing about the history. You have to connect with the jersey. That’s what [Wallaby coach] Ewen McKenzie is trying to do, make the boys understand what the jersey means. You can already see that it’s coming, that pride.

You’re optimistic then about Australian rugby?

DC I know Ewen, I’ve played with the guy, he knows what it all feels like.

RH It sounds exactly what Stuart Lancaster has done with England, engaging with England’s roots and you can see the effect it has had.

There has been a lot of strife in Australian rugby, eh, pay cuts, off-field issues with alcohol, Kurtley Beale, Quade Cooper, James O’Connor. I could go on Campo.

DC There is a lot of strife, I agree, and there is because they’ve allowed it to happen. Deans never really got to grips with it.

So this is a really important point for Australian rugby?

DC Yes, this is it. McKenzie has tried to address it. James O’Connor is not involved. He has been chucked out. He’s a great player but enough is enough.

Two years out from a World Cup... that’s quite an important mark isn’t it?

DC Yeah, in a way, but you can’t win a World Cup in two years. You need four. We haven’t got guys coming through in Australia. It is the same player base as it was with Robbie Deans and that is our problem.

ZB You need a core. The All Blacks have depth. Look at [fly-half] Beauden Barrett. It’s not all about Dan Carter. Barrett has been brilliant. New Zealand are well placed in terms of their player base.

Who should we look out for over the next few weeks? Who is the player you will be keeping an eye on? A Kiwi, Zinzan?

ZB No, I want to watch Marland Yarde, see what he is made of.

DC The backup No 10 for Australia, Bernard Foley.

RH If Yarde performs well, it means something has gone right up front. This could be the time for Courtney Lawes but I will be fascinated to see if England get the No 8 sorted, be it Billy Vunipola or Ben Morgan.

It would be remiss not to mention Argentina.

ZB I am more excited about Argentina than I am about the other two. Their evolution is so important. They were excluded for too long. It was a bit like Italy joining the Six Nations. It took too long. We have to support Argentina.

David Campese, Zinzan Brooke and Richard Hill were speaking on behalf of QBE, the business insurance specialist, ahead of the QBE Internationals – www.QBErugby.com

2 magnificent players back in the day but they're all a bit out of touch, now, as pundits.

Sponsor-driven nonsense.

Casartelli wrote:2 magnificent players back in the day but they're all a bit out of touch, now, as pundits.

Sponsor-driven nonsense.

Which is the not-magnificent-in-his-day player?

Excellent read, can almost feel the southerners holding back on the sarcasm I know them both to have. Loved Zinnys...go on...name em...he was loving it...good read...

All three would most likely be in mist people's all time greats xv. Plus their points are well worth reading.

Good to see DC remains competitive v NZ...wouldnt expect anything else. Funny, he uses back to backs as an argument yet suggests England at home is an advantage- yet historically thats as equally invalid.

Tough ask for Richard Hill but confidence was never lacking with Zinny or Campo and that's certainly not the case. Would be interesting to have that same interview by Hill but with Serge Blanco and Jiffy. If we were lucky Blanco would mistake Jiffy for a cream puff and eat him.

Hill comes across as a gentleman. The other two... well, let's just say they were fantastic rugby players

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Casartelli wrote:2 magnificent players back in the day but they're all a bit out of touch, now, as pundits.

Sponsor-driven nonsense.

Which is the not-magnificent-in-his-day player?

Hill and Zinzan would be first choicers in an all-time World XV - and would (if at their peak form) still stroll into their national teams. In the modern game, Campese would be playing on the 7s circuit - maybe getting the odd game for Rotherham if he played 15s in Europe. The best talker though - at least he says some interesting things occasionally.

Why would Campo be on the 7s circuit in the modern game, whilst I admit a lot of it is bulk and power we have still seen there is still a place for skill.

In fact I watched the Lions v Australia Legends game prior to the 3rd test in Oz and whilst he has lost the pace Campo still had the skill and left a few our of Legends grasping thin air.

Mind you when he got collared it got the loudest cheer.

Campese is one of the best wingers to have ever played the game. It's amazing how quickly talent is forgotten because a few words in the press don't align with someone's personal opinion

Zinzan Brooke was probably the greatest all round skilled player to ever wear the number eight shirt.

hard to compare across generations with the size and speed involved in the game. both were legends at the time no doubt. i suspect campeze's maverick unpredictability would have ensured him legendary status in any era though. but not popularity!

You have guys like Le Roux carving up defences and he doesnt have anything on Campese yet but similar in size and for getting around the field thats for sure.

David Campese 1.8m and 84 kgs

Is that his head maestegmafia or his body?  

Campo is a legend of the game. He's earned the right to spout nonsense. Doesn't mean we have to take him seriously. Zinny is in a similar boat. Great players don't make necessarily for great pundits. For every Will Greenwood there's a Keith Wood. But just as actors like Matt Damon or Alec Baldwin feel they have the right to step up onto the soapbox and preach to the converted, so too do ex rugby players feel we give a damn what they have to say. Everyone has the right to an opinion. Some have more of an avenue to voice their opinion. Campo unfortunately has a runway.

Talks like he played so at least he's consistent. Fave moments besides him turning us and JK around in key tests were the tries he got in the 84 grand slam including the baa baas. The way he turned players inside out actually made you laugh he was that good at it. Genuinely talented runner and not afraid to try anything.

True, but what an idiot eh

Sorry, uncalled for, got a few campo scar memories:) Great player, bit of a character, WUM, and a legend.

I never worry about that sort of thing ebop. There are plenty if idiot players around doing far worse than he did. He gave his all as a player and although cheeky as always entertained. Snubbed the haka by kicking the ball around behind the posts...how can ya not laugh at that? Perhaps its cos I saw him when he first started and followed his career. Probably the most entertaining wallaby I've seen.

Yeah like I said Tman he's earned the right to speak his mind. Kronfeld is similarly outspoken and usually critical of NZ rugby. it's healthy to have a wide range of opinion. Like genetics you want as diverse a field as possible. I'd love to hear Merths as a pundit. He had a dry sense of humor and was self deprecating. There are a few funny characters but most of them are unintentionally funny like Brian Moore. Campo is the go to person for journalists because he will invariably say something controversial. I remember reading Stirling Mortlock's comments during the RC and it stood out against the usual guff like the pressure is on NZ and they're an ageing team and on the decline or the manipulated comment that Cooper tackles better than McCaw. I bet though journalists will not seek out Mortlock again for comments. They'll keep returning to the person who will give them a sound bite that'll shift copies or they'll make one up or manipulate a comment to make a story. Someone who talks common bloody sense is not profitable. It's not just the Rattues and Jones writing their pieces, it's them seeking out pundits who'll back up their agenda.

Stop it kia...next they'll be lining up for GEs opinion!

Maybe campo has earned the right to speak his mind but he squanders it by spouting nonsense. He's a bit of a Bob Dwyer with no objectivity and no one takes him seriously.

But if someone keeps approaching you ebop it's tempting to believe they value your opinion rather than see what you say is good for circulation figures. The same with trolls who feed off reaction. They misinterpret reaction as validation.

Taylorman wrote:Talks like he played so at least he's consistent. Fave moments besides him turning us and JK around in key tests were the tries he got in the 84 grand slam including the baa baas. The way he turned players inside out actually made you laugh he was that good at it. Genuinely talented runner and not afraid to try anything.

Like all the greats, he made it look easy. He was one of the players I used to watch and then go into the back garden with a ball and pretend I was him.

You should have taken a spoon or a big garden tool LP and then you'd have been a dead ringer.  

I say that tongue in cheek out of respect for the great man. We need characters. Especially with today's players and their colourless bland comments. Unfortunately we also need more who are insightful and eloquent. I actually like Justin Marahall's commentary but he has difficulty expressing what he sees without resorting to screaming like a banshee. He'd be a good guy to approach though for comments as his articles are not his strong point much like his commentary skills.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Talks like he played so at least he's consistent. Fave moments besides him turning us and JK around in key tests were the tries he got in the 84 grand slam including the baa baas. The way he turned players inside out actually made you laugh he was that good at it. Genuinely talented runner and not afraid to try anything.

Like all the greats, he made it look easy. He was one of the players I used to watch and then go into the back garden with a ball and pretend I was him.

I used to go into the garden and pretend I was Blanco, but that was only so I could have a crafty smoke.

maestegmafia wrote:Campese is one of the best wingers to have ever played the game. It's amazing how quickly talent is forgotten because a few words in the press don't align with someone's personal opinion

Zinzan Brooke was probably the greatest all round skilled player to ever wear the number eight shirt.

The best players do not the best coaches or commentators make. Actually it is almost inversely proportional.

Taylorman

Zinzan misses the point when he teases about the ID of our spine. Let him ask that question at the end of the 6N then we'll see.

Interesting that Brooke never mentioned Cruden but was gushing in his praise of Barrett as a back up to Carter.

Also interesting that Campo sees Foley as Australia'a second choice 10. I know he has been on the bench recently but thought that was just because Lealiifano was injured. He's a guy that I have been keeping an eye on for a while and looks a very well rounded 10.

Campese, Hill and ZZB were all contenders in both the greatest 15 ever polls that went on, they would all make an Int team in any era

It's not the best read for an Englishman, mainly because DC's and ZB' points were partly valid, not knowing who our best combo's are, not having a spine etc, we are 2 years out and rapidly descending on a world cup we don't look anything near ready for yet.

Why did I have to read this...

I'd be happier if England had a warm up game against a lesser opponant Fiji, Samoa etc, Aus 1st up will be tough after their last game they will be confident of a win at Twickers if England are slow out of the blocks then they may struggle.

Australia aren't set on their spine though!

Australia- FB- is it Folau? What about his weaknesses though and indifferent 5/7 games this RC? Beale? Mogg? The return of JOC? Not set
10- Cooper seems to be back. I doubt he'll be there for the RWC though and am happy if he is
9- Genia, fair enough
8- who knows???
7- never heard this is part of the spine before, but Poccock vs Hooper vs Gill = good options but still a conundrum
2- Moore, fair enough

They also have a new captain in Ben Mowen. Interesting choice given he only has 10 international caps.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Campese, Hill and ZZB were all contenders in both the greatest 15 ever polls that went on, they would all make an Int team in any era

Maybe but although I'd love to pick Hill/ZZB I'd try damn hard to find a reason not to pick DC

lostinwales wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Campese, Hill and ZZB were all contenders in both the greatest 15 ever polls that went on, they would all make an Int team in any era

Maybe but although I'd love to pick Hill/ZZB I'd try damn hard to find a reason not to pick DC

I'd consider Hill (especially) and Zinzan in a different league altogether. Maybe one or two rivals for 'greatest ever' in their positions.

Campo was fantastic to watch, and pioneered coming off the wing to look for work etc, but for selection in an all time XV I reckon he'd be behind Caucau, Lomu, Rokocoko, Habana, Tagaloa, Sivivatu, that French fella, the other French fella....

The Aussie Shane Williams, if you will. Better pundit though. The above interview aside.

ChequeredJersey wrote: Australia  aren't set on their spine though!

Australia- FB- is it Folau? What about his weaknesses though and indifferent 5/7 games this RC? Beale? Mogg? The return of JOC? Not set
10- Cooper seems to be back. I doubt he'll be there for the RWC though and am happy if he is
9- Genia, fair enough
8- who knows???
7- never heard this is part of the spine before, but Poccock vs Hooper vs Gill = good options but still a conundrum
2- Moore, fair enough

Sorry thats what I meant by partly right, they make a valid point re England, but the same can be said of Australia too.

I wouldn't even consider Moore as a nailed on, he seems to be on the wane. There are question marks over most Aus players, including Genias form. I think our strength is definately our bench, and the fact that we have picked largely on form.

"If we were lucky Blanco would mistake Jiffy for a cream puff and eat him."

Aw, come on, check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt4AIRMzJ2o

some of the best tries i have ever seen.had seen many of the union ones but not the league ones. what a step at speed. just a legend.

Not that Blanco was exactly shabby himself.

I think his point about being able to name the spine of a team is perfectly valid

munkian wrote:I think his point about being able to name the spine of a team is perfectly valid

Yes but we are in a better position than if we just had a decent first choice and a lot of rubbish 2nd choices- which would seem to fit ZZB's criterion. The big question is how many potentially great players are there or are they all just competent

Selection headaches are always a boon but its better to have standout players no ?

munkian wrote:Selection headaches are always a boon but its better to have standout players no ?

Yes but surely its better if the step between the stand outs and the rest is small, especially in this day and age when injuries almost always impacts on selection.

I think England really need to figure out who are their starting partnerships and fast so they can cut the wheat from the chaff.

BlueNote wrote:"If we were lucky Blanco would mistake Jiffy for a cream puff and eat him."

Aw, come on, check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt4AIRMzJ2o

I'm not talking about them as players. I'm saying that Blanco is a fat fecker now and if he was feeling peckish he might snaffle up Jiffy and we could all be saved by his high pitched squeaking of numbers.

munkian wrote:I think England really need to figure out who are their starting partnerships and fast so they can cut the wheat from the chaff.

Six changes to the team that lost the grandslam. The most major is the shuffling at scrumhalf, fullback and number eight.

munkian wrote:I think England really need to figure out who are their starting partnerships and fast so they can cut the wheat from the chaff.

yes, but i personally am glad they are trying players who are in form at their respective clubs. with injuries the way they are, we cant just rely of a small number of starting partnerships, especially with games being largely won in the last 20 minutes at international level. strength in depth of fluent partnerships will really help come RWC. now if only they could pick steffon armitage i'd be really happy...

Triangulation wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Campese is one of the best wingers to have ever played the game. It's amazing how quickly talent is forgotten because a few words in the press don't align with someone's personal opinion

Zinzan Brooke was probably the greatest all round skilled player to ever wear the number eight shirt.

The best players do not the best coaches or commentators make. Actually it is almost inversely proportional.

Taylorman

Zinzan misses the point when he teases about the ID of our spine.  Let him ask that question at the end of the 6N then we'll see.  

Understand what youre saying Tri but what if he'd said the same last year- would that have been your response- 'look at our spine at the end of the 6N'? I mean could there be a more supple spine that that?

What has actually changed?

Triangulation wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Campese is one of the best wingers to have ever played the game. It's amazing how quickly talent is forgotten because a few words in the press don't align with someone's personal opinion

Zinzan Brooke was probably the greatest all round skilled player to ever wear the number eight shirt.

The best players do not the best coaches or commentators make. Actually it is almost inversely proportional.

Taylorman

Zinzan misses the point when he teases about the ID of our spine.  Let him ask that question at the end of the 6N then we'll see.  

However they are talking about the up and coming tests - the ones that happen before the 6N. So he can't really talk about after the 6N can he?

The result today confirms ZB and DC are has beens who know little about the modern game. Especially in England.