AUSTRALIA v B&I LIONS - TEAMS FOR 2ND TEST

by alive555 Thu 27 Jun 2013, 4:24 am

First topic message reminder :

flyhalffactory wrote:British & Irish Lions
15 Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues, Wales)
14 George North (Scarlets, Wales)
13 Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster, Ireland)
12 Jonathan Davies Scarlets, Wales)
11 Tommy Bowe (Ulster, Ireland)
10 Jonathan Sexton (Leinster, Ireland)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, England)
8 Jamie Heaslip (Leinster, Ireland)
7 Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues, Wales, Cap)
6 Dan Lydiate (Newport G Dragons, Wales)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, England)
4 Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, Wales)
3 Adam Jones (Ospreys, Wales)
2 Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, England)
1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England)

16 Richard Hibbard (Ospreys, Wales)
17 Ryan Grant (Glasgow, Scotland)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, England)
19 Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers, England)
20 Sean O'Brien (Leinster, Ireland)
21 Conor Murray (Munster, Ireland)
22 Owen Farrell (Saracens, England)
23 Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues, Wales)

Australia
15 Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels)
14 Israel Folau (NSW)
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW)
12 Christian Leali'ifano (ACT Brumbies)
11 Joe Tomane (Brumbies)
10 James O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels)
9 Will Genia (Reds)
8 Wycliff Palu (NSW)
7 Michael Hooper (NSW)
6 Ben Mowen (ACT)
5 Kane Douglas (NSW)
4 James Horwill (Reds - Cap)
3 Ben Alexander (ACT)
2 Stephen Moore (ACT)
1 Benn Robinson (NSW)

16 Saia Fainga'a (Reds)
17 James Slipper (Reds)
18 Sekope Kepu (NSW)
19 Rob Simmons (Reds)
20 Liam Gill (Reds)
21 Nick Phipps (Rebels)
22 Rob Horne (NSW)
23 Jesse Mogg (Brumbies)

So that's it folks
Representation Split
9 Wales - 3 Cardiff Blues, 2 Ospreys, 2 Scarlets, 1 NG Dragons
7 England - 5 Leicester, 2 Saracens
6 Ireland - 4 Leinster, 1 Munster, 1 Ulster
1 Scotland - 1 Glasgow

That's FIVE CHANGES for Saturday's second Test in Melbourne. Two positional Lydiate in and Croft dropping to the bench, while Bowe replaces the unlucky Cuthbert who is benched with Maitland dropping out after ironically his best game on Tuesday. Injuries see Ben Youngs replaces Mike Phillips at scrum-half, while lock Geoff Parling and prop Mako Vunipola step in for the injured Paul O'Connell and Alex Corbisiero.

Nothing unexpected but Gatland has laid his cards on the table, he is shoring up the defence with Bowe and Lydiate, whilst possibly the shock coming in with Mako Vunipola starting at Loose Head instead of Ryan Grant. The bench however is a different story with no specialist cover at Lock, Centre, or Full Back, and no enterprise, versatility, or speed on the bench with Evans, Gray, Tuilagi, Hogg, Maitland all not considered.

Come on the Lions ROOOAR

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 28 Jun 2013, 1:55 pm

gelodge wrote:
markb wrote:I'm really not convinced by starting Lydiate, it's definitely tending towards the negative. A lucky 1-0 up in the series I think the advantage needs to pressed and the game taken to the Aussies with SOB starting. We really lacked abrasive ball carriers in the backrow last time out and SOB is a significant plus there whilst still being quality in defence and at the breakdown. Some are suggesting Lydiate is there to curb Genia, but they've played against each other 8 times internationally now, and having seen most of those games I can't remember Lydiate (even when in better form) subduing Genia. I just don't see Lydiate being succesful enough defensively against the Aussies over what SOB can do in that regard and what he adds offensively.

Quite a few are discussing Croft v Lydiate because of the outgoing/incoming aspect, but I agree with this poster that SOB is who we should have in the 6 shirt. Based on where we lacked in the 1st test, with POC now out and no Roberts or Tuilagi in midfield we really need a powerful runner in the backrow. Against a side like the Aussies if you're starting Warburton & Lydiate I think you need an 8 like Morgan, that not being an option, with Heaslip or Faletau at 8 I think you need Warburton & SOB on the flanks, or if you want Lydiate, SOB at 7, but with Warburton as captain that isn't going to happen.

Do people really think SOB is so inferior to Lydiate tackling and at the breakdown?

No. Well I certainly don't.

We have a 3 top class international options at 6 with SOB, DL and TC, and they all have different strengths and weaknesses. As with all players, if they have one standout attribute, people tend to pigeon-hole them and give them the billing of 'world class' in that area (ball carrying, tackling and line-out skills for SOB, DL and TC respectively), whilst then believing that they have glaring deficiences elsewhere. All have strengths and weaknesses, and skills that fall somewhere inbetween.

Interestingly with SOB I think his big strength (carrying) can also at times be a bit of a weakness for the team. He carries well, but at times appears to shell a fair amount of ball in contact. Now, proportion wise it may be that he shells no more than others, but as he tends to carry more it appears that he drops more, I don't have any figures to hand to back this up, it is merely my impression watching him.

Perhaps given that I believe Gatland accepts that we will be weaker in the scrum this week than last without Corbisiero and POC, he does not want the risk of increased scrums that comes with increased spills. He also clearly sees Vunipola as a ball carrier, and may feel that Lydiates strengths balance the pack better.

Or I could be talking nonsense and he only picked Lydiate as he's Welsh and Vunipola as he is he wanted to play for Wales but couldn't because all of their other loosheads are too good (as claimed on another thread)! Wink

by banshee007 Fri 28 Jun 2013, 2:56 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
banshee007 wrote:This is all about the Lions but I'm sure Gatland has one eye on the RWC. This is great preparation for his Welsh squad who will have gained much from this tour. If the Lions do get edged out tomorrow, there is the prospect of all 10 Welsh Lions playing next week, barring injury. What a game that will be.

To quote an old tennis player, you cannot be serious?!

If you really think Warren Gatland would sacrifice a Lions series win and treat the third Test as some kind of World Cup warm-up game, then you are a fool and a bad innkeeper.*

* - Just a bit of Don Quixote for a Friday morning.

I certainly don't think Gatland would sacrifice a Lions series win. He really wants to win it AND the RWC.

by johnpartle Fri 28 Jun 2013, 2:59 pm

gelodge wrote:
markb wrote:I'm really not convinced by starting Lydiate, it's definitely tending towards the negative. A lucky 1-0 up in the series I think the advantage needs to pressed and the game taken to the Aussies with SOB starting. We really lacked abrasive ball carriers in the backrow last time out and SOB is a significant plus there whilst still being quality in defence and at the breakdown. Some are suggesting Lydiate is there to curb Genia, but they've played against each other 8 times internationally now, and having seen most of those games I can't remember Lydiate (even when in better form) subduing Genia. I just don't see Lydiate being succesful enough defensively against the Aussies over what SOB can do in that regard and what he adds offensively.

Quite a few are discussing Croft v Lydiate because of the outgoing/incoming aspect, but I agree with this poster that SOB is who we should have in the 6 shirt. Based on where we lacked in the 1st test, with POC now out and no Roberts or Tuilagi in midfield we really need a powerful runner in the backrow. Against a side like the Aussies if you're starting Warburton & Lydiate I think you need an 8 like Morgan, that not being an option, with Heaslip or Faletau at 8 I think you need Warburton & SOB on the flanks, or if you want Lydiate, SOB at 7, but with Warburton as captain that isn't going to happen.

Do people really think SOB is so inferior to Lydiate tackling and at the breakdown?

Yeah, I have to say I'm concerned as to where we're hoping to get substantial quality front foot ball from in the tough tight exchanges. It's all very well having an ultra secure breakdown and tackle area, but if you're not consistently getting over the gain line (and we already looked a bit limited there last weekend) you're really not giving yourself the best opportunity to go out and win the game.

What Australia excel at is moments of brilliance and counter attack. No matter how good our defence is on the whole you can almost guarantee that between themselves players like Genia, Beale, O'Connor, Lealiifano AAC & Folau will create and convert at least a couple of opportunities. We need other more determined avenues throughout the match to get forward and score aside from North or Halfpenny's boot.

I would definitely have had O'Brien in the backrow over Lydiate and Grey in the 2nd over Parling (AWJ is more than capable or running the lineout and in any case I'd rather lose 1 or 2 lineouts if it meant we could better truck the ball up when we did win them and in the rest of the forward exchanges).

by MarcusHalberstram Fri 28 Jun 2013, 3:19 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
MarcusHalberstram wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
MarcusHalberstram wrote:Team seems a little odd, but always happens come the second test.

Not sure why people are still banging on about Hogg - he may have a future, but he's clearly not ready for this level yet, and has been more noted for his frailties than strengths on this tour (and I'm not talking about him playing at fly-half).

Do you care to expand for the whole forum of course, and not just us very very bitter one eyed Scottish posters.

I really would like you to expand on your statement if you please

I just don't think he's been very good! Neither does anyone else I've watched games with. I was looking forward to seeing him on tour, and a lot of people had him in their test team before the tour, but I just think he's looked out of his depth in attack and defence.

Ahh that old adage "me an all the people.......
ALL THE PEOPLE
SO MANY PEOPLE
THEY ALL GO... HAND IN HAND
SAYING WE DON'T LIKE STUART HOGG....... THATS LIFE (live with it, coz I can't really give provide you with evidence You Know What I mean!!)

Come on Marcus old bean, you are digging a mighty big hole there chum, and now including all your "rugger friends"
Where's the meat on the bone?, where's the bleeding evidence that he has been poor in defence and attack?.......... Us one eyed scots are getting impatient bonzo

Hey Fly,

First of all, I think Hogg deserved his place on the tour - he had a good six nations and played some great rugby - but I think this tour has shown he's still very raw. All I'm saying is I don't understand why some people are calling for him to be on the bench for the test team. He had a couple of games at full back early in the tour and I don't think he impressed in either of them, in fact I think he looked like a weak link. I didn't pay great attention to the games where he played fly-half - and I don't think it would be fair to judge him on those, since he was playing in a fairly unfamiliar position, though I remember him looking very comfortable in the first and rattled in the second. I can understand the view of people thinking he's been messed around positionally, but personally I think he played his way out of test place before he lined up at fly-half and I think ultimately he'll have benefitted greatly from the whole experience.

by R!skysports Fri 28 Jun 2013, 3:59 pm

MarcusHalberstram wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
MarcusHalberstram wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
MarcusHalberstram wrote:Team seems a little odd, but always happens come the second test.

Not sure why people are still banging on about Hogg - he may have a future, but he's clearly not ready for this level yet, and has been more noted for his frailties than strengths on this tour (and I'm not talking about him playing at fly-half).

Do you care to expand for the whole forum of course, and not just us very very bitter one eyed Scottish posters.

I really would like you to expand on your statement if you please

I just don't think he's been very good! Neither does anyone else I've watched games with. I was looking forward to seeing him on tour, and a lot of people had him in their test team before the tour, but I just think he's looked out of his depth in attack and defence.

Ahh that old adage "me an all the people.......
ALL THE PEOPLE
SO MANY PEOPLE
THEY ALL GO... HAND IN HAND
SAYING WE DON'T LIKE STUART HOGG....... THATS LIFE (live with it, coz I can't really give provide you with evidence You Know What I mean!!)

Come on Marcus old bean, you are digging a mighty big hole there chum, and now including all your "rugger friends"
Where's the meat on the bone?, where's the bleeding evidence that he has been poor in defence and attack?.......... Us one eyed scots are getting impatient bonzo

Hey Fly,

First of all, I think Hogg deserved his place on the tour - he had a good six nations and played some great rugby - but I think this tour has shown he's still very raw. All I'm saying is I don't understand why some people are calling for him to be on the bench for the test team. He had a couple of games at full back early in the tour and I don't think he impressed in either of them, in fact I think he looked like a weak link. I didn't pay great attention to the games where he played fly-half - and I don't think it would be fair to judge him on those, since he was playing in a fairly unfamiliar position, though I remember him looking very comfortable in the first and rattled in the second. I can understand the view of people thinking he's been messed around positionally, but personally I think he played his way out of test place before he lined up at fly-half and I think ultimately he'll have benefitted greatly from the whole experience.

We are frustrated that he was not given a chance to push for a place in his best position - the game (did he play more than one?) he played 15 he actually played quite well

He was pushing for the best 15 in the 6 nations and only a little behind halfpenny. He offers something different than halfpenny that could have been a benefit

he is currently in much better form than Kearney

In the first game he was close to man of the match at 10 - so not sure how he was looking uncomfortable - he was lauded on the forums, the press and the ex players for how well he played

The second he struggled more, but with the way the forwards played most 10s would have struggled

He is not however a 10

He is not the finished article and would have to have played like a man to possessed to dis-place halfpenny, but to say he played his way out of test contention with one good game at 15 is a bit rich - if that was the case, nearly everyone would not be able to push for the test side

by MarcusHalberstram Fri 28 Jun 2013, 4:03 pm

He played against the Barbarians and Reds at 15 before he played at 10 - like I said, I don't think he was very good in either game, hence I can't understand why people are pushing his cause for a bench place.

by Scarpia Fri 28 Jun 2013, 4:39 pm

SOB or Lydiate? My back row would be Tipuric, Warburton and Heaslip with SOB on the bench

by R!skysports Fri 28 Jun 2013, 5:03 pm

MarcusHalberstram wrote:He played against the Barbarians and Reds at 15 before he played at 10 - like I said, I don't think he was very good in either game, hence I can't understand why people are pushing his cause for a bench place.

Well if we take the barbarian game -then we would have cancelled the whole tour

Against the Reds he had a good game (Took 10 mins to get over nerves)

by flyhalffactory Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:20 pm

MarcusHalberstram wrote:He played against the Barbarians and Reds at 15 before he played at 10 - like I said, I don't think he was very good in either game, hence I can't understand why people are pushing his cause for a bench place.

Marcus
I don't know where you drink old boy.......... But I would keep off the sauce and "all your mates" when watching rugger.
All us Scots (well most) would say that Halfpenny is deffo the first choice FB but Hogg had a good game at FB (not great but as good as most up to then). I am not going to ask to expand on your comments on this topic further.

The only thing I cant understand is when I ask you twice to clarify by examples you cannae do it.

by RubyGuby Fri 28 Jun 2013, 9:33 pm

I'm finishing off the 10 year old Aberlour FHF right now

by flyhalffactory Fri 28 Jun 2013, 10:07 pm

RubyGuby wrote:

I'm finishing off the 10 year old Aberlour FHF right now

Yummy mate................... keep a shot for tomorrow morning

Hope you have had a good week and all the best to the Lions tomorrow

by RubyGuby Fri 28 Jun 2013, 11:48 pm

by Taylorman Sat 29 Jun 2013, 6:14 am

Finally decided on a Wallabies win tonight. Firstly, they have to win. The Lions don't. Psychologically that will mean no matter how hard both teams try, the Wallabies will want this more. Where they might not have tried something last week, they will this week.

Secondly, Gatland has some selection issues himself...changing 5 including Youngs for Phillips and Bowe for a winger who is lately finding the line, and will miss POC. This week theyre going to need to create more chances than last, as well as finish them.

Thirdly Deans is giving his side a second chance. Most of his changes are forced, and last week had some benefit with Folau getting a taste and Beale working back into form (disregard the kicking, he was third drop at best for that...and...has been practising all week.

Second chances also seem to apply to Horwill, Beale and JOC who got 'let off' for various misdemeanours

Forth, the Aussies can't possibly have worse luck with kicks and injuries than last week.

Aussies by a fairly comfortable 12....or more if they click.

by RubyGuby Sat 29 Jun 2013, 8:03 am

I see the lions defence winning them the game by 7-10:thumbsup:

by LordDowlais Sat 29 Jun 2013, 8:21 am

Is anybody watching the Lions breakfast show on SS ? Scott Quinell just came up with a classic. Now, imagine his west Wales accent, then read this "It is important we keep Australia out of the game, because the longer they out of the game, the longer they are not in the game". laughing

Well done Sherlock, your insight and knowledge are unquestionable, I wouldn't say that to his face though.

by GavinDragon Sat 29 Jun 2013, 8:41 am

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