Issues in golf- slow play

Hi golf fans,

following on from some comments on other threads I thought it would be interesting to discuss some of the issues affecting our beloved game, the reasons for these issues and possible solutions.

Firstly and probably the main issue in golf today is the one of slow play. We all know the players with the bad reputations in relation to this. The current system of bad times and putting players on the clock doesnt seem to be working, so what effective measures can be taken?

Is it feasable to have a referee with every group who will get on players cases when they start dawdling? Or how about more readily enforced penalty strokes?

there should be a strict shot-clock for the pros like in Basketball. take the subjectivity of the rules out of it as much as possible

The trouble is there's no clear point at which a player's turn starts. Therefore it'll always be subjective, and it will always be more likely to be the shortest hitter who's punished since they have to get to their ball and hit whereas their partners have time while they are playing to prepare for their own shots.

incon ... penalty strokes are being applied for slow play. Guan got penalised a stroke at The Masters.

Everyone complains about slow play and yet when someone (John Paramor) applies said penalty after more warnings that Guan was entitled to, he gets crucified by the media.

Personally, after one shot penalty is applied, if they again fail to make the clock, then they are politely asked to leave the course!

SmithersJones wrote:The trouble is there's no clear point at which a player's turn starts. Therefore it'll always be subjective, and it will always be more likely to be the shortest hitter who's punished since they have to get to their ball and hit whereas their partners have time while they are playing to prepare for their own shots.

Not quite Smithers. The first player gets more time, the second player less and the third player less than the second player. Quite apart from the reason you stated, I think it's also to prevent golfers from only starting to focus on their shot when it's their turn.

gaelgowfer wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:The trouble is there's no clear point at which a player's turn starts. Therefore it'll always be subjective, and it will always be more likely to be the shortest hitter who's punished since they have to get to their ball and hit whereas their partners have time while they are playing to prepare for their own shots.

Not quite Smithers. The first player gets more time, the second player less and the third player less than the second player. Quite apart from the reason you stated, I think it's also to prevent golfers from only starting to focus on their shot when it's their turn.

Presuming they are all at their ball when the first and subsequent players play their second shots I think that's a decent idea, however, if the second players ball is 20 yards DIRECTLY in between the first player and the target, it's a bit harsh not to give them the same time as the first player.

gael- i know penalty shots are being applied, my suggestion was that they should be applied more readily i.e. if the player has not sped up after the first bad time, instead of as a last resort after 3 or 4 warnings as seems to be the case currently

For me it's more about slow play in the amateur game. How do we police that? We all know slow players and some us may even be slow although we won't admit it.

The worst thing for me which makes my teeth grind is on the greens. Here we can blame the pros for their habit of marking their ball with some sort of line and then trying to use that to line up with their putt. The number of times I see amateurs trying to do this....usually goes:

1) Spend an age lining up a putt. If you really want to pee me off, plumb bob the line as if that's going to work!
2) Place ball back on green and spend a while trying to line ball mark up with selected line of putt.
3) Stand back from ball and check ball alignment.
4) Decide ball alignment is wrong.
5) Repeat steps 2 through 3 once or, God forbid, more than once, until satisfied.
6) Miss putt.



After that, I'd say people who don't play 'ready golf'. They don't place their bag in the best place round the green for a quick getaway. They don't even begin to consider their shot until it's their turn and half the time, they don't know when it's their turn.

I could go on but I feel the safety valve beginning to whistle...

Oh, another thing on the greens.....marking your ball after lagging up within 2-3 feet. Hole out! In most cases, you won't be on anyone's line and even if you are what difference do you think it'll make to their putt???

Ah, ok then incon. Not sure warnings as such really comes into it normally. Guan was 'indulged' beyond his entitlement because of his age coupled with the enormity of the occasion.

As I understand it, if deemed appropriate, then a player will be timed. If that player gets a bad time, he/she is then advised of this. They are then advised they are being put on the clock and if another bad time is recorded then ... I think ... it is at this point a penalty stroke is applied ... or summat like that!

I really don't know how this system (coupled with the amount of time each player is given and ... assuming I've understood it correctly ) can really be improved upon so I'm at a loss to know how to speed up the so-called elite element of the game although as I've just noticed from nb's post, I would agree that far too much time is spent fannying around on the greens themselves.

Anecdotal evidence from US College Golf, with coaches actively proffering advice/instruction on the course during play, suggests average time for 18 holes playing in a four-ball now approaches six (SIX!!!) hours.

So many of these guys bring those habits to professional golf.

The AJGA has stipulated a standard time for completion of 18 holes (not clear if this is 3-somes or 4-somes) at 4 hr 19 minutes, but even this seems excessive to me.


PS: I would add practice swings to nbs's list of hates on the golfcourse - if you want to loosen up, do it while others are playing, or walk faster to your ball so you can better be prepared to hit when it's your time. Jeezum!

Re. Guan. Personally, I think he was hit with a penalty purely because he was an amateur. They'd never have dreamed of doing that to one of the pros in the field at the Masters. Disgraceful decision whatever the rights and wrongs of the actual offence.

Another thing re. slow play. If you think your ball may be lost/in trouble - hit a provisional before you walk down to look for it!

Related to the above, call waiting groups through if your group is tramping around in the cabbage - if you haven't found the ball as soon as you get to its location, it'll take time and if there's someone waiting, let them straight through.

Anyway, this is all very well but how are clubs gong to deal with this slow play? Most of us can identify issues but I'm not sure how it's going to be dealt with.

Played a medal in 2 hr 50 at the weekend.

That's what happens when you get a hole in one . . . . . I'm looking forward to the experience.

Sadly that wasn't in a medal Kwini. Perhaps one day that will happen.

There are ways around this Gael. The more seasoned, streetwise, slowcoach will slow their walking pace so they get to the ball later. Their caddie is the one that has to speed up so they can start collecting yardage etc. so they have it ready for their player when he eventually arrives. Player stays within the "shotclock" but maintains the same overall slow pace.

NBS - it can make a difference but it depends on the firmness of the greens, the nature of the spikes, and the heftiness of the player. When I was still in the UK I had a very short medal putt squirt offline and miss due to it catching, and following, the indented outline of a shoeprint. Knowing that I am a fat bar steward I wouldn't want it done to me and nor would I want to do it someone else as we all know what golfers are like: bunch of bitchy little girls!

navyblueshorts wrote:Re. Guan. Personally, I think he was hit with a penalty purely because he was an amateur. They'd never have dreamed of doing that to one of the pros in the field at the Masters. Disgraceful decision whatever the rights and wrongs of the actual offence.

John Paramor ... vindictive? I don't think so.

Surely, the real problem with Guan, at The Masters at least, was that they don't have a walking official with any of the groups.
By the time he got to New Orleans, one imagines he and his caddie were coached! Hope they remember the advice because he's rocking up in Dallas, at the Byron Nelson in two weeks' time.


Grumps, Agree about the caddie - Snedeker gets plaudits for playing quickly, but in reality he and his bagman can be quite deliberate. Just that when they finally make up their minds he goes before you can blink.

navyblueshorts wrote:Re. Guan. Personally, I think he was hit with a penalty purely because he was an amateur. They'd never have dreamed of doing that to one of the pros in the field at the Masters. Disgraceful decision whatever the rights and wrongs of the actual offence.

apparently mannasero in the same group was given a penalty tho it went under the radar

Can a player get a newspaper out to pass the time?

Paramor gets criticism from some quarters but at least he takes action against the slowies. i admire him for standing up to Tiger and Paddy a few years ago at firestone. And Guan's penalty at the masters was unfortunate but necessary. more Paramors is the solution in my opinion.

The trouble with the Woods/Harrington situation is that it was Woods who was spraying the ball everywhere and getting them way behind. But when they got put on the clock it was Harrington who stuffed it in the rough and he ended up having to rush and ultimately blow the tournament on that hole. Penalised for someone else's issue, which unfortunately can happen when rulings are made out of context.


I've actually seen a threesome get asked to get a move on and one of the pros (no names but let's just say all three are well up in the top 50 career money winners, and none of them known for slow play) basically told the official to take a hike. There were mitigating (weather mainly) circumstances but it makes you wonder.

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:There are ways around this Gael. The more seasoned, streetwise, slowcoach will slow their walking pace so they get to the ball later. Their caddie is the one that has to speed up so they can start collecting yardage etc. so they have it ready for their player when he eventually arrives. Player stays within the "shotclock" but maintains the same overall slow pace.

True enough Grumps. Unfortunately, if Guan is still around to play the pro game when he's finishes his education, I daresay he will be well versed on how to play "shotclock".

Away from the professional game though - we played our first qualifier / major comp of the year on Sunday. Now we have a nine hole course and it took 4 and a half hours to get round. Trouble is that the whole course can only go as fast as the slowest 4 ball. I was getting pretty peed off with the pace of play and I know others were too. As far as I can see it is mainly little things like teeing off then marking the card when you have the honour, being aware when it is your honour and not just standing around looking at each other wondering if someone is going to tee it up etc.

Anyway I am Green Chairman and want to take some steps to try and make competition rounds a bit more enjoyable for all. Anyone got any suggestions?

Have a ranger on the course, in a cart, so he can zip around checking, say once an hour - more if necessary, anyone slipping behind and delivering a verbal warning to them. Keep it up and they're outathere.

One of my best slow play stories ...

Playing the fabled Merion East. They have a strict (and I mean strict) policy of completing in 4 hours or less. Member (required in EVERY group) and caddies held responsible for all pace of play. Well, we get behind a slow group ... wait on many shots, but what can we do?

This group gets to the 17th tee box and figures they better get in or pay the price. So they skip 17 and 18. We finish and then letters are sent - fortunately all was OK since we had plenty of witnesses for why we finished over 4 hours.

Here's GolfWorld's slow play story:

http://www.golfworldmagazine.com/golfworld/20130506?sub_id=1alwBFcdkPbX#pg1

I prefer a relaxed pace of play, allowing reasonable time to consider each shot etc. I try and compensate by rarely bothering with practice swings and walking briskly, not wasting time between shots. The thing that annoys me is when someone is always lagging behind between shots, messing about with their bag etc. rather than getting a move on. Invariably these are the guys who are short from the tee and you end up waiting for a couple of mins for them at their ball before they even get there, let along hit the ball.

Last weekend's medal was beyond belief...
The pace of play seemed unreasonably slow throughout the round (2 hrs 40 at the turn) and at the 13th tee we were able to survey what was ahead clearly. The group ahead were just arriving at their balls on the fairway, and ahead of them there was no one on the green...no one on 14...no one on 15...no one on 16...in fact the group ahead were teeing up on 17! As I say, utterly beyond belief. The guys ahead of us who Tee'd off at 9am set the tone for the entire day. One if the guys in our group phoned the pro, said that we didn't intend to disturb them from their game, however could the pro please time the gap between groups finishing and have a word. Gap was just over 40mins...so he had a word.

brilliant article kwini, sums it up perfectly.

barragan- thats disgraceful, do people let groups play through anymore?

To be honest, we were not really aware they were the problem until then, and hadn't pushed them as such, just keeping up with them and adjusting accordingly as we assumed the issue was further ahead. Looking ahead they ought to have seen just how much ground they were losing and got a move on. Seems they were oblivious to the chaos left in their path. Lots of crossing back and forth across fairways, but never seemed to look back...

incontinentia wrote:...barragan- thats disgraceful, do people let groups play through anymore?

No, they don't. The traditional etiquette of the game is nowhere to be seen anymore.

Got let through twice on Sunday actually. Typically, the first time I hit a poor tee shot, walked off with a bogey but the second one I stiffed a five iron into a foot. Always nice to do that, and a round of applause too.

super_realist wrote:Got let through twice on Sunday actually. Typically, the first time I hit a poor tee shot, walked off with a bogey but the second one I stiffed a five iron into a foot. Always nice to do that, and a round of applause too.

Ha! The Curse of the Call Through. Been there, done that.

It's amazing how many people seem to think it's an insult that you want to play through, and that it somehow impunes their manhood to let you. Even those that do call you through often don't really do it decisively and end up slowing things up even more by getting in the way or worse - the half call through, when they wave you on, then when you tee off, play their second shots anyway, then stand around looking gormless.

The solution with the pros is already there, its just never used. If they start to penalise players, they will pretty quickly speed up. Whole thing could be sorted in a matter of weeks. I think that I am right in saying that no ones been penalised a shot on the PGA tour for years.

In amateur play the one that annoys me most is waiting to play until it is your turn when you are all about 200 yards from the flag. Just get to your ball and hit it. Especially in a medal when you aren't even playing against your fellow players. Slightly different around and on the green when you could get a line.

As for people not letting groups through, that really gets on my wick.

ok so if there are solutions/measures there then why isn't anything being done? is Finchem or whoever afraid of rocking the boat?

Incontinentia - My guess is that few people think anything is broken in the US professional game. Who complains about slow play? No players are boycotting events or skipping to other tours because of it. Sponsors aren't pulling out. TV Networks aren't demanding it (perhaps otherwise in fact!).

Sr,
Cynics would say that's the American way!

But as far as TV is concerned, Miller and Kostis continually ascribe fluctuations in players' form during a round to pace of play. Most recently Simpson (slow) and Horschel (fast).

I'd be surprised if we didn't hear from the USGA on the subject sooner rather than later.

Don't know if anyone other than incontinentia read the GolfWorld article, but here's an interesting epilogue with Glen All Day:

http://www.golfworldmagazine.com/golfworld/20130506?sub_id=1alwBFcdkPbX#pg70

PS: Who is "Carnac"? Phil??

weve seen this week already that he has no backbone

Kwin - Agree with that, but I would say it's more human nature.

Don't overlook the obvious - until ratings dip on the big tour, nothing will be done.

I still look for that player who defects to Europe because play is too slow here.

Shotrock wrote:Incontinentia - My guess is that few people think anything is broken in the US professional game. Who complains about slow play? No players are boycotting events or skipping to other tours because of it. Sponsors aren't pulling out. TV Networks aren't demanding it (perhaps otherwise in fact!).

a lot of players have a major problem with it and complain, wouldnt expect them to boycott or move to another tour, that seems a bit drastic. it probably suits networks/sponsors because theres more advertising time. can the players lobby those in power to make a change?

Is there a penalty for playing through or hitting to the green whilst they are still on it?

Incontinentia - The players works for the sponsors. "A lot" and "major" obviously open to interpretation ... and given the independent contractor nature of the working professional, I sincerely doubt any group lobby on this issue. But, it would be nice to see!

Sr,
You "still look for the player who defects to Europe" period!

I certainly don't think it's in the networks' interests to tolerate slow play - especially on Saturdays they want Round 3's to finish "time certain" due to local station commitments. As for the final rounds, CBS especially has a flagship programme they prefer to start on time.

In the past 35 years, NFL games and MLB games have got longer by about 15 minutes each, and over rates in cricket would not have been tolerated in the 70's and 80's. And let's not get started on basketball.

The only game I can think of that's actually succeeded in abbreviating its duration is NHL ice hockey.

But I would think it's in the self-interest of the game of golf to take slow-play rounds seriously, from "Open Championships" to six-somes at Valley View.

First threesomes out in Charlotte, both off 1 and 10, finished in approx 4 hr 40 minutes.

Course I played recently, Mentmore actually has the times they expect you to take for each hole printed on the scorecard.

Why would the TV companies complain? They have plenty of other groups to focus on (usually Tiger or Coko). It will never affect the TV companies who are the strongest potential lobby, until it causes a show to overrun - and they plan for long rounds

First 3-balls out in a PGA tournament, taking 4:40 is pathetic

As for club golf, as many of you will know, I'm a higher handicap but when I've been paired with "good" golfers I've never had a complaint. I do have a certain pre-shot routine, for all shot but I know I'm a bit of a slow putter - however I make sure I make up for that by being always ready, no marking cards on the green, bag left in the best place, walking faster between shots etc

Even with a fairly deliberate pre-shot routine I could still do a 2 ball round (with no one in front) in under 3 hours, a 3-ball in about 3:13 and a 4-ball in under 3.5 hours (depending on who else I'm playing with obviously)

I played a C medal 3 or 4 weeks ago and there was a notoriously slow player in the group in front - they had lost 1 hole on their group in front in the first 2 holes and our time for a 3 ball was just a fraction over 4 hours (I was playing with other quite quick players)

Having said all that, 4hours (plus a bit) didn't make me lose any sleep - it felt slow, but unlike some, I'm in no real hurry to finish unless the weather is crap

Just to balance it, I do get a little annoyed with some people who seem to hate the game so much that they want to be finished almost as soon as they've started. If a 3 ball that should take 3.5 hours actually takes 4 hours ... does it really matter?

Anything over (say) 4.5 hours gets my blood boiling too - but is an extra 30 minutes over what you'd ideally like really worth stressing over? I don't think so

I have another C medal on Saturday; ideally I'd like to think we should be finished in say 3:30 to 3:40. If it takes a little more, I'm not going to worry too much about it

Blimey Davie, felt like I just read the epilogue to your latest biography!

Strike a light, you guys do like to complain don't you?

"We know all the rules and we're never slow players...it's everyone else, everyone else I tells ya!"