England wingers- past and present

So I was reading the thread about Wade, and it made me think about who England's best wingers have been. Those I remember, and those before. I suppose that also brings up the topic of the worst, too...

Names in the frame for the best list?

Ashton (current #1 - rightly or wrongly)
Cohen
Billy Whizz
Josh Lewsey
Dan Luger
Rory Underwood

I'm sure there must be many, many who I can't call to mind right now. David Duckham is another, but I am too young to have seen him play (other than in brief YouTube clips). I notice Billy Whizz and Josh Lewsey were both "back 3" players, which Lancaster seems to favour. Shame we don't have them now!

In the worst list? Phil Cristophers? Any advance on that?

I don't think Luger ever really got the praise he deserved. Great scoring record. He's another one that gets lumped in with 'the team was so good my granny could have scored a hatful'.

His score in the left hand corner (v Aus) was brilliant

Surely one has to mention Balshaw.

It was Balshaw who chipped for Luger to score, no?

Did Balshaw ever play for England on the wing? Certainly very much a 15 in my head.

Austin Healy .

Rinsure wrote:It was Balshaw who chipped for Luger to score, no?

Yep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYH9w15kmH0

Matt Banahan is the worst, statistically Underwood is the best but Lewsey and Robinson were class and my favorites.

1) Balshaw was sensational when he first came on the England scene as a winger..pace and the balls to go for it when he had the ball.
2) Dan Luger was also excellent for a spell...and is unfairly dismissed by England fans for his later form.
3) Rory Underwood was class and probably our best winger.
4) Dai Duckham of course...so named because he was that good he was like a welsh winger
5) Ben Cohen was very good until he put TOO much muscle on.
6) Tony Underwood is also a good winger who is only remembered for being trampled over and swung into touch by a Mr Lomu.
7) Jason Robinson sheer class.
8) Josh Lewsey played wing many a time and was class.
9) Mark Cueto...just lacked that little bit of pace towards the end of his England career
10) Steve hanley..was a try scoring sensation in the prem but only played once or twice for England i believe.
11) And the biggest loss of all....JSD!!!

There have been many others...Vainikolo, Sackey, Monye....

Balshaw was mainly / only 15 for England, but did some wing duty at Glaws before moving to Biarritz.

Does anyone remember David Rees.... didn't he round Lomu once for a try???

Cohen had a knack for scoring against the (as was) Tri-Nations sides.

Yeah i remember David Rees.

JSD raced around lomu in the Baa Baas game. Did Rees aswell...i cant remember.

Hislop was another one. Didnt get get punched by Blanco and his cronies one game.

I think Rees did in 97.. but he scored... if I recall it was a great try.

What about Lord Harriman???

Sinbad dummied a pass to himself, sent the defence after the wrong attacker, before beating Lomu on the outside....big

gregortree wrote:Sinbad dummied a pass to himself, sent the defence after the wrong attacker, before beating Lomu on the outside....big

but then didn't he trip over himself?

gregortree wrote:Sinbad dummied a pass to himself, sent the defence after the wrong attacker, before beating Lomu on the outside....big

Yeah, that was a Baa Baa's game wasn't it?

Hmm, actually I'm not sure if it was. It was quite BOD-like though

gregortree wrote:Sinbad dummied a pass to himself, sent the defence after the wrong attacker, before beating Lomu on the outside....big

And then, this being JSD, pulled a hamstring and missed the next 6 weeks

Anyway, some good names listed of very good wingers (Robinson, Underwood R, Duckham, Lewsey, Cohen), some who are maybe slightly underrated looking back (Underwood T, Luger, Cueto) and a few absolute stinkers (Big Les, Bananaman, Phil Christophers).

Think Steve Hanley only won one cap, despite being so good at club level. IIRC, for a while he had an injury record that not even JSD could match.

fa0019 wrote:

gregortree wrote:Sinbad dummied a pass to himself, sent the defence after the wrong attacker, before beating Lomu on the outside....big

but then didn't he trip over himself?

....and scored in the corner

Others to mention:

Simon Smith - hairiest legs ever seen on a winger
Nigel Heslop - rattled the great Serge Blanco in 91 1/4 final
Chris Oti - unlucky with injuries
Tony Swift - he was
David Trick - he had a few

and

Carrrrrrrrrrleton, John Carleton.



But the best English winger I have seen was Rory Underwood.

fa0019 wrote:Does anyone remember David Rees.... didn't he round Lomu once for a try???

Yup cracking player. He and Austin Healy formed a cracking back 3 with that Bath fullback bloke for a while in the late noughties.

Mike Brown? I know which list I'd put him on as a winger....

Jason Robinson the best England winger I can remember. Much preferred him on the wing with Lewsey at fullback.

I was watching the 2001 Lions DVD at the weekend, and Robinson was on fire that tour. Some of his tries in the tour games were simply stunning.

Luger was also underrated by Sir Clive. Something definitely went on there. Sure, with Robinson, Cohen and Lewsey there were plenty of excellent back three options, but as a strike runner Luger was superb and a better winger than Lewsey (as above, much preferred Lewsey at 15).

Jon Slightholme could fair shift, anyone else remember him leaving Jason Robinson for dead in the Bath V Wigan game?

Back in the days when them nostril tape things were all the rage....

Full list of England players who have played on the wing for England since 1980. Dont think I have missed anyone.

Name Debut Opposition
Tony Swift 30/05/1981 v Argentina at Buenos Aires
Nick Stringer 02/01/1982 v Australia at Twickenham
David Trick 19/03/1983 v Ireland at Lansdowne Road
Rory Underwood 18/02/1984 v Ireland at Twickenham
Mark Bailey 02/06/1984 v South Africa at Port Elizabeth
Simon Smith 05/01/1985 v Romania at Twickenham
Mike Harrison 01/06/1985 v New Zealand at Christchurch
Chris Oti 05/03/1988 v Scotland at Murrayfield
John Bentley 23/04/1988 v Ireland at Lansdowne Road
Barry Evans 12/06/1988 v Australia at Sydney
Andy Harriman 05/11/1988 v Australia at Twickenham
Nigel Heslop 28/07/1990 v Argentina at Buenos Aires
Ian Hunter 17/10/1992 v Canada at Wembley
Tony Underwood 17/10/1992 v Canada at Wembley
Phil de Glanville 14/11/1992 v South Africa at Twickenham
Jon Sleightholme 20/01/1996 v France at Parc des Princes
Adedayo Adebayo 23/11/1996 v Italy at Twickenham
Austin Healey 15/02/1997 v Ireland at Lansdowne Road
David Rees 15/11/1997 v Australia at Twickenham
Jonny Wilkinson 04/04/1998 v Ireland at Twickenham
Spencer Brown 06/06/1998 v Australia at Brisbane
Josh Lewsey 20/06/1998 v New Zealand at Dunedin
Paul Sampson 04/07/1998 v South Africa at Cape Town
Dan Luger 14/11/1998 v Netherlands at Huddersfield
Steve Hanley 11/04/1999 v Wales at Wembley
Ben Cohen 05/02/2000 v Ireland at Twickenham
Iain Balshaw 05/02/2000 v Ireland at Twickenham
Jason Robinson 17/02/2001 v Italy at Twickenham
Michael Stephenson02/06/2001 v Canada at Markham
Tom Voyce 16/06/2001 v United States of America at San Francisco
Phil Christophers 22/06/2002 v Argentina at Buenos Aires
James Simpson-D 09/11/2002 v New Zealand at Twickenham
Ollie Smith 09/03/2003 v Italy at Twickenham
Dan Scarbrough 23/08/2003 v Wales at Millennium Stadium
Mark Cueto 13/11/2004 v Canada at Twickenham
Mark van Gisbergen12/11/2005 v Australia at Twickenham
Tom Varndell 26/11/2005 v Samoa at Twickenham
Paul Sackey 05/11/2006 v New Zealand at Twickenham
David Strettle 24/02/2007 v Ireland at Croke Park
Mike Brown 26/05/2007 v South Africa at Bloemfontein
Nick Abendanon 02/06/2007 v South Africa at Pretoria
Lesley Vainikolo 02/02/2008 v Wales at Twickenham
Topsy Ojo 14/06/2008 v New Zealand at Auckland
Delon Armitage 08/11/2008 v Pacific Islanders at Twickenham
Ugo Monye 08/11/2008 v Pacific Islanders at Twickenham
Ben Foden 07/02/2009 v Italy at Twickenham
Matt Banahan 06/06/2009 v Argentina at Old Trafford
Ben Youngs 13/03/2010 v Scotland at Murrayfield
Chris Ashton 20/03/2010 v France at Paris
Charlie Sharples 06/08/2011 v Wales at Twickenham


Did Tuilagi ever play on the wing for Eng?

Wilko made his debut on the wing.

Forgot about John Bentley aswell...

Adedayo Adebayo! What a player! Great name!

Criminally underused by England!

A number of the people on that list GG made their debuts of the bench and had to cover the wing even if they were realy not wingers - Wilko came on because he was the last replacement left and a winger was injured.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Forgot about John Bentley aswell...

Well he made that one appearance in 88, then went to RL. Did he even play for England when he returned to RU afte we went pro? TBH his performances in Union were nothing special, with memories being inflated by the try in 97 in SA and the whole "Living with the Lions" video.

Please tell me that was from memory Guns??

LondonTiger wrote:A number of the people on that list GG made their debuts of the bench and had to cover the wing even if they were realy not wingers - Wilko came on because he was the last replacement left and a winger was injured.

Thats right. Its not uncommon. Foden debuted at scrum half for example.

bluestonevedder wrote:Please tell me that was from memory Guns??

Yes it was.

Guns
Wilkinson made his debut off the bench and replaced a winger late in the game.

There are a few names I don't know and a few I'd forgotten on there. We really have picked some rubbish on the wings over the years (Phil de Glanville?). Pretty sure both Simon Halliday and Mike Catt should also be on that iist, although both played mainly in other positions.

dummy_half wrote:Guns
Wilkinson made his debut off the bench and replaced a winger late in the game.

There are a few names I don't know and a few I'd forgotten on there. We really have picked some rubbish on the wings over the years (Phil de Glanville?). Pretty sure both Simon Halliday and Mike Catt should also be on that iist, although both played mainly in other positions.

Halliday did indeed play on the wing briefly.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Forgot about John Bentley aswell...

Well he made that one appearance in 88, then went to RL. Did he even play for England when he returned to RU afte we went pro? TBH his performances in Union were nothing special, with memories being inflated by the try in 97 in SA and the whole "Living with the Lions" video.

Think he played at least once after the Lions tour, against Australia.

Bentley was actually really slow and a poor defender. Had a good Lions tour in 07 but didn't really cut it at International level.

Paul Sampson - he could shift!

Steve Hanley 11/04/1999 v Wales at Wembley

Wasn't that debut cut short after Craig Quinell ran all over him ? Why on earth would he try and tackle that mad hippo.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Paul Sampson - he could shift!

He could indeed - and certainly punched above his weight to nab Kirsty Gallacher

Says a lot about how tragically sparse England's winger stock is when Chris Ashton makes the list

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Forgot about John Bentley aswell...

Well he made that one appearance in 88, then went to RL. Did he even play for England when he returned to RU afte we went pro? TBH his performances in Union were nothing special, with memories being inflated by the try in 97 in SA and the whole "Living with the Lions" video.

Think he played at least once after the Lions tour, against Australia.

Bentley was actually really slow and a poor defender. Had a good Lions tour in 07 but didn't really cut it at International level.

Slow - Tell that to 15 chaps from the Transvaal.

dummy_half wrote:Guns
Wilkinson made his debut off the bench and replaced a winger late in the game.

There are a few names I don't know and a few I'd forgotten on there. We really have picked some rubbish on the wings over the years (Phil de Glanville?). Pretty sure both Simon Halliday and Mike Catt should also be on that iist, although both played mainly in other positions.

Yes I know alright. Just thought Id add it for novelty value. It was the same deal for Ben Youngs.

Everyone to have featured on the Wing for England since 1980:

Name	Years	Caps at Wing	Starts	Replacement	Points when a winger	Tries
R Underwood	1984-1996	85	85	0	210	49
BC Cohen	2000-2006	56	54	2	155	31
MJ Cueto	2004-2011	51	51	0	100	20
AS Healey	1997-2002	40	31	9	70	14
CJ Ashton	2010-2013	34	34	0	85	17
DD Luger	1998-2003	33	32	1	110	22
T Underwood	1992-1998	27	27	0	65	13
J Carleton	1980-1984	25	25	0	28	7
OJ Lewsey	2003-2007	24	23	1	45	9
PH Sackey	2006-2009	22	21	1	55	11
JT Robinson	2001-2007	20	17	3	60	12
ME Harrison	1985-1988	15	15	0	32	8
MAC Slemen	1980-1984	15	15	0	20	5
CC Oti	1988-1991	13	13	0	32	8
UCC Monye	2008-2012	12	12	0	10	2
JM Sleightholme	1996-1997	12	12	0	20	4
D Strettle	2007-2012	12	11	1	5	1
DL Rees	1997-1999	11	10	1	15	3
MN Brown	2012-2013	10	7	3	0	0
MJM Tait	2006-2009	10	1	9	10	2
MA Banahan	2009-2011	9	7	2	15	3
SJ Halliday	1989-1992	9	8	1	4	1
NJ Heslop	1990-1991	9	9	0	12	3
ST Smith	1985-1986	9	9	0	12	3
IR Balshaw	2000-2007	8	4	4	20	4
TRG Stimpson	1997-2002	7	3	4	18	0
AA Adebayo	1996-1998	6	6	0	10	2
DA Armitage	2010-2011	6	3	3	10	2
MD Bailey	1984-1990	6	6	0	4	1
ND Beal	1997-1999	6	3	3	5	1
IG Hunter	1992-1995	6	6	0	15	3
JD Simpson-Daniel	2002-2007	6	5	1	10	2
AH Swift	1981-1984	6	6	0	0	0
PR de Glanville	1992-1999	5	0	5	0	0
LPI Vainikolo	2008-2008	5	4	1	0	0
TMD Voyce	2004-2006	5	4	1	15	3
J Bentley	1988-1997	4	4	0	4	1
TW Varndell	2005-2008	4	3	1	15	3
DJ Hipkiss	2007-2008	3	0	3	0	0
PC Sampson	1998-2001	3	3	0	0	0
C Sharples	2012-2012	3	3	0	10	2
ME Stephenson	2001-2001	3	3	0	0	0
NC Stringer	1982-1984	3	0	3	0	0
SP Brown	1998-1998	2	2	0	0	0
MJ Catt	1998-2003	2	1	1	5	1
PD Christophers	2002-2002	2	2	0	5	1
BJ Evans	1988-1988	2	2	0	0	0
BJ Foden	2012-2012	2	2	0	5	1
ACT Gomarsall	1997-2003	2	0	2	0	0
DP Hopley	1995-1995	2	2	0	0	0
TO Ojo	2008-2008	2	2	0	10	2
DM Trick	1983-1984	2	2	0	0	0
SRD Abbott	2006-2006	1	0	1	0	0
TD Beim	1998-1998	1	1	0	0	0
ME Corry	1999-1999	1	0	1	0	0
HA Ellis	2004-2004	1	0	1	0	0
OA Farrell	2012-2012	1	0	1	0	0
JC Guscott	1997-1997	1	0	1	0	0
SM Hanley	1999-1999	1	1	0	5	1
AT Harriman	1988-1988	1	1	0	0	0
LD Lloyd	2001-2001	1	1	0	10	2
JD Noon	2007-2007	1	1	0	0	0
SCW Ravenscroft	1998-1998	1	0	1	0	0
PC Richards	2007-2007	1	0	1	0	0
DGR Scarbrough	2007-2007	1	1	0	5	1
OJ Smith	2003-2003	1	0	1	0	0
MC van Gisbergen	2005-2005	1	0	1	0	0
JP Wilkinson	1998-1998	1	0	1	0	0
BR Youngs	2010-2010	1	0	1	0	0

Of course when you look at those off the bench there are many oddities (Martin Corry!!!!).

Only name I do not recognise is TD Beim.

If thats the case I'm sure I saw a match in RWC95 when Keiran Bracken and Brian Moore came on as replacement flankers due to injuries.... think it was a pool match, can't remember which.... does that mean they will be on listed as such on official docs. Jokes huh.

Looseheaded wrote:Says a lot about how tragically sparse England's winger stock is when Chris Ashton makes the list

fa0019 wrote:

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Forgot about John Bentley aswell...

Well he made that one appearance in 88, then went to RL. Did he even play for England when he returned to RU afte we went pro? TBH his performances in Union were nothing special, with memories being inflated by the try in 97 in SA and the whole "Living with the Lions" video.

Think he played at least once after the Lions tour, against Australia.

Bentley was actually really slow and a poor defender. Had a good Lions tour in 07 but didn't really cut it at International level.

Slow - Tell that to 15 chaps from the Transvaal.

7 chaps, and the only one he skinned was the hooker. Nice step to beat the full back but a lot of poor defending there. Great try, ok player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua3z_o16Zkw

LondonTiger wrote:Everyone to have featured on the Wing for England since 1980:

Name	Years	Caps at Wing	Starts	Replacement	Points when a winger	Tries
R Underwood	1984-1996	85	85	0	210	49
BC Cohen	2000-2006	56	54	2	155	31
MJ Cueto	2004-2011	51	51	0	100	20
AS Healey	1997-2002	40	31	9	70	14
CJ Ashton	2010-2013	34	34	0	85	17
DD Luger	1998-2003	33	32	1	110	22
T Underwood	1992-1998	27	27	0	65	13
J Carleton	1980-1984	25	25	0	28	7
OJ Lewsey	2003-2007	24	23	1	45	9
PH Sackey	2006-2009	22	21	1	55	11
JT Robinson	2001-2007	20	17	3	60	12
ME Harrison	1985-1988	15	15	0	32	8
MAC Slemen	1980-1984	15	15	0	20	5
CC Oti	1988-1991	13	13	0	32	8
UCC Monye	2008-2012	12	12	0	10	2
JM Sleightholme	1996-1997	12	12	0	20	4
D Strettle	2007-2012	12	11	1	5	1
DL Rees	1997-1999	11	10	1	15	3
MN Brown	2012-2013	10	7	3	0	0
MJM Tait	2006-2009	10	1	9	10	2
MA Banahan	2009-2011	9	7	2	15	3
SJ Halliday	1989-1992	9	8	1	4	1
NJ Heslop	1990-1991	9	9	0	12	3
ST Smith	1985-1986	9	9	0	12	3
IR Balshaw	2000-2007	8	4	4	20	4
TRG Stimpson	1997-2002	7	3	4	18	0
AA Adebayo	1996-1998	6	6	0	10	2
DA Armitage	2010-2011	6	3	3	10	2
MD Bailey	1984-1990	6	6	0	4	1
ND Beal	1997-1999	6	3	3	5	1
IG Hunter	1992-1995	6	6	0	15	3
JD Simpson-Daniel	2002-2007	6	5	1	10	2
AH Swift	1981-1984	6	6	0	0	0
PR de Glanville	1992-1999	5	0	5	0	0
LPI Vainikolo	2008-2008	5	4	1	0	0
TMD Voyce	2004-2006	5	4	1	15	3
J Bentley	1988-1997	4	4	0	4	1
TW Varndell	2005-2008	4	3	1	15	3
DJ Hipkiss	2007-2008	3	0	3	0	0
PC Sampson	1998-2001	3	3	0	0	0
C Sharples	2012-2012	3	3	0	10	2
ME Stephenson	2001-2001	3	3	0	0	0
NC Stringer	1982-1984	3	0	3	0	0
SP Brown	1998-1998	2	2	0	0	0
MJ Catt	1998-2003	2	1	1	5	1
PD Christophers	2002-2002	2	2	0	5	1
BJ Evans	1988-1988	2	2	0	0	0
BJ Foden	2012-2012	2	2	0	5	1
ACT Gomarsall	1997-2003	2	0	2	0	0
DP Hopley	1995-1995	2	2	0	0	0
TO Ojo	2008-2008	2	2	0	10	2
DM Trick	1983-1984	2	2	0	0	0
SRD Abbott	2006-2006	1	0	1	0	0
TD Beim	1998-1998	1	1	0	0	0
ME Corry	1999-1999	1	0	1	0	0
HA Ellis	2004-2004	1	0	1	0	0
OA Farrell	2012-2012	1	0	1	0	0
JC Guscott	1997-1997	1	0	1	0	0
SM Hanley	1999-1999	1	1	0	5	1
AT Harriman	1988-1988	1	1	0	0	0
LD Lloyd	2001-2001	1	1	0	10	2
JD Noon	2007-2007	1	1	0	0	0
SCW Ravenscroft	1998-1998	1	0	1	0	0
PC Richards	2007-2007	1	0	1	0	0
DGR Scarbrough	2007-2007	1	1	0	5	1
OJ Smith	2003-2003	1	0	1	0	0
MC van Gisbergen	2005-2005	1	0	1	0	0
JP Wilkinson	1998-1998	1	0	1	0	0
BR Youngs	2010-2010	1	0	1	0	0

Of course when you look at those off the bench there are many oddities (Martin Corry!!!!).

Only name I do not recognise is TD Beim.

Eh I prefer my list. Where did you get that?

rodders wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Forgot about John Bentley aswell...

Well he made that one appearance in 88, then went to RL. Did he even play for England when he returned to RU afte we went pro? TBH his performances in Union were nothing special, with memories being inflated by the try in 97 in SA and the whole "Living with the Lions" video.

Think he played at least once after the Lions tour, against Australia.

Bentley was actually really slow and a poor defender. Had a good Lions tour in 07 but didn't really cut it at International level.

Slow - Tell that to 15 chaps from the Transvaal.

7 chaps, and the only one he skinned was the hooker. Nice step to beat the full back but a lot of poor defending there. Great try, ok player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua3z_o16Zkw

If I recall from the tour he had the better of James Small in a number of matches who was quite the player... albeit a complete d***.

fa0019 wrote:If thats the case I'm sure I saw a match in RWC95 when Keiran Bracken and Brian Moore came on as replacement flankers due to injuries.... think it was a pool match, can't remember which.... does that mean they will be on listed as such on official docs. Jokes huh.

Yes both are classified as having one replacement appearance as a flanker:

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=matches;position=9;spanmax1=31+Dec+1995;spanmin1=01+Jan+1995;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=player

On Small vs Bentley, in actual fact my recollection is that Small rather worryingly skipped past Bentley on one occasion on the tour, and I think it's that memory that led to McGeechan going for Tait in the tests, a more solid and astute defender.

I liked Bentley, great character, but not a top quality international winger. There are a number of better players on the above list.

Mike Slemen. Great winger. Reminded me a bit of Ron Mael from Sparks.

Andrew Harriman was one of the most elegant wingers to play for us but never cemented his place.

Ian hunter was an early iteration of Josh Lewsey but suffered badly from injuries.

I think Luger was described once as a bag of coathangers because he was all knees and elbows to tackle.

Rugby Fan wrote:Ian hunter was an early iteration of Josh Lewsey but suffered badly from injuries.

Once dislocated his shoulder when making a tackle. His thumb got caught in the other guys pocket.

One we missed out on, of course, was Martin Offiah.