Aviva Premiership - Round 19

Table



Fixtures:


Fri 29th Mar 13
19:45 Gloucester Rugby v Harlequins Kingsholm ESPN

Sat 30th Mar 13
14:15 Bath Rugby v London Welsh Recreation Ground
15:00 London Wasps v Saracens Adams Park
15:00 Northampton Saints v Leicester Tigers Franklin's Gardens Sky
15:00 Worcester Warriors v Exeter Chiefs Sixways

Sun 31st Mar 13
14:15 London Irish v Sale Sharks Madejski Stadium ESPN




Preview:

A fascinating set of fixtures as the fight for Heineken Cup places, Play-Off spots and ultimately home semi-finals intensifies. The top 6 sides all meet, with teams 4-6 hosting teams 1-3. An added bonus is that the top 3 sides all have HEC 1/4 finals next week so will be looking to maintain or find some serious form. Meanwhile the two sides just behind the top 6 know that they need to bounce back from defeats last week if they are to have a chance of capitalising on any slips above them. At the bottom, London Welsh's failure to overturn their points deduction leaves them a mountain to climb.


The Easter weekend starts with defending champions Harlequins Good Friday trip to Kingsholm. Fans from both teams have been bemoaning their form, while Glaws coach Nigel Davies has underplayed their chances stating that "we are nowhere near them with our game, so it's a big challenge for us." Victory for Gloucester could see them draw level on points with Quins (though behind on games won) and, should Saints beat Tigers, could see the champions sitting in 4th place. Quins will be wary of the threat posed by Burns but will look to capitalise on the defensive frailties that see him ranked the worst tackler in the league this season. Quins should just be too strong. Gloucester 1pt Quins 4pts

Saturday starts with Bath hosting London Welsh. A must win fixture for both sides, Bath to push for an HEC spot, LW to boost their fading chances of survival. London Welsh won the reverse fixture and at home you feel that Bath should be too strong. Bath 4pts London Welsh 0pts

The East Midlands derby is shown live on Sky. Both teams should be up for this and Saints know that victory could lift them into second place. Tigers will be hoping to extend their 5 match winning streak over Northampton and will hope to find more space in Saints defence than that offered by Exeter. Saints 1pt Tigers 4pts

Wasps have been playing some attractive rugby but look to be running out of steam. not a good sign when the Sarries juggernaut is coming to town. Saracens will have noticed Wasps failure to defend the rolling maul and I suspect Wasps could be in for more of the same. If they can stay composed, Wasps could be the team to mess with Sarries defence - but they will want Stephen Jones pulling the strings, as Nicky Robinson has looked a liability. Waps 0pts Sarries 5pts

Worcester are hard to beat at Sixways, but have a lot of players leaving and really have nothing to play for. Exeter need a win to stay in the frame for HEC spots. Worcester 0pts Exeter 4pts

Sunday's televised match was a huge relegation battle a few weeks ago, but is slightly less important now. London Irish did a Northampton and scored their tries from rolling mauls last week, but escaped the brickbats thrown at the Saints. While unlikely to manage the same feat against Sale, they should have too much class in the backs. London Irish 4pts Sale 1pt

LondonTiger wrote:
Sunday's televised match was a huge relegation battle a few weeks ago, but is slightly less important now. London Irish did a Northampton and scored their tries from rolling mauls last week, but escaped the brickbats thrown at the Saints. While unlikely to manage the same feat against Sale, they should have too much class in the backs. London Irish 4pts Sale 1pt

It was the greatest thing ever seeing my side score twice from rolling mauls and once off the back of a dominant 5 metre scrum. Interestingly at home our pack have been excellent since the turn of the year, but we've been beaten up badly away from home twice (against Bath and Saints). If from 1 to 8 we perform as we have done so far this year at home, I think we will beat Sale, and reasonably comfortably. If we slip below that level and play as we did in the two away games I mentioned, then it doesn't matter what our backs might be able to do. We will lose.

This week is massive in my opinion, as if we win, then that's us safe really.

Ozzy that's probably just home advantage helping those two very good packs.


Cheers for the write up LT was a good read.

secretly I expect Quins to win against Glos and will be gutted if they don't, but at the same time looking at just how terrible we've been this year we shouldn't be expecting anything.

Think I got 5/6 games right last week, Sale beating Bath let me down. Will try for a perfect 6 this week....

Gloucester Rugby v Harlequins
- Home win. LBP for Quins.
Bath Rugby v London Welsh
- Home win. TBP for Bath.
London Wasps v Saracens
- Away win. No TBP, maybe a late LBP for Wasps.
Northampton Saints v Leicester Tigers
- Home win. No TBP. LBP for Tigers.
Worcester Warriors v Exeter Chiefs
- Away win. LBP for Worcester.
London Irish v Sale Sharks
- Home win. No TBP or LBP.

Let's get some form building boys. COYQ

Always confident at home against the big boys.

Friday teams up on CJ's thread : https://www.606v2.com/t42434-gloucester-vs-harlequins-tight-at-the-top

EnglishReign wrote:Always confident at home against the big boys.

Ooer missus, fnar fnar, ding dong etc

Bath make 5 changes to the team that lost naroowly in Salford. While it looks weaker on paper, perhaps it will gel better:

15. Ollie Devoto, 14. Horacio Agulla, 13. Matt Banahan, 12. Kyle Eastmond, 11. Semesa Rokoduguni, 10. Stephen Donald, 9. Peter Stringer,
1. Paul James, 2. Rob Webber, 3. David Wilson, 4. Stuart Hooper (c), 5. Dominic Day, 6. Francois Louw, 7. Mat Gilbert, 8. Carl Fearns,

Replacements

16. Ross Batty, 17. Nathan Catt, 18. Anthony Perenise, 19. Ben Skirving, 20. Will Skuse, 21. Michael Claassens, 22. Tom Heathcote, 23. Nick Abendanon

Meanwhile Gav is still hors de combat for LW:

London Welsh: 15. Seb Jewell, 14. Phil MacKenzie*, 13. Gonzalo Tiesi*, 12. Sonny Parker*, 11. Seb Stegmann, 10. Gordon Ross*, 9. Alex Davies, 1. Franck Montanella*, 2. Dan George, 3. Paulica Ion*, 4. Jonathan Mills (C), 5. Kirill Kulemin*, 6. Julio Cabello Farias*, 7. Michael Hills, 8. Daniel Browne.

Replacements: 16. Greg Bateman, 17. Tom Bristow, 18. James Tideswell, 19. Matt Corker, 20. Adam Balding, 21. Rob Lewis, 22. James Lewis, 23. Nick Scott.

Dom Waldouck drops out for Saints, Samu Manoa continues at 6 and Tom wood returns in his new international position of 8:

15 Ben FODEN, 14 James WILSON, 13 George PISI, 12 Tom MAY,
11 Jamie ELLIOTT, 10 Stephen MYLER, 9 Lee DICKSON,
1 Soane TONGA'UIHA, 2 Dylan HARTLEY (capt), 3 Tom MERCEY, 4 Courtney LAWES, 5 Christian DAY, 6 Samu MANOA,
7 Phil DOWSON, 8 Tom WOOD,

Replacements 16 Ross MCMILLAN, 17 Alex WALLER, 18 Brian MUJATI, 19 GJ VAN VELZE, 20 Ben NUTLEY, 21 Martin ROBERTS, 22 Ryan LAMB, 23 Luther BURRELL

Whilst tigers are uchanged from the visit to Devon:

15 Mathew Tait, 14 Niall Morris, 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, 12 Anthony Allen, 11 Adam Thompstone, 10 Toby Flood (c), 9 Ben Youngs,
1 Marcos Ayerza, 2 Tom Youngs, 3 Dan Cole, 4 Ed Slater, 5 Geoff Parling, 6 Tom Croft, 7 Julian Salvi, 8 Jordan Crane

Replacements 16 Rob Hawkins, 17 Logovi'i Mulipola, 18 Martin Castrogiovanni, 19 Thomas Waldrom, 20 Graham Kitchener, 21 Sam Harrison, 22 George Ford, 23 Matt Smith

Would have liked to see Geordie on the bench to grab a bit of time as I think we'll need him against Toulon.

Saints clearly improving the weaker areas of th team from last week.

No sure any set of results now can be good for Quins now, if only Saints, Wasps, Sarries and Tigers could all lose. At least we were less Poopie than we've been for most of the season

Some poor decision making in the end cost you dear. Wanting to play a high tempo is admirable but throwing away points in such a tight game with some of the tap-and-gos.

Munster have just taken a battering from Glasgow. Hopefully COS can get your boys ready for them next week.

I am not happy with SamSmith right now at all. Had to go for the posts. Really really need to build from the positives of the match but cut out the craziness (which only started in the second half, in the first half we were clinical and thoughtful!) and we now need to win every remaining match this season. At least Nev and Care look to have some form back

I am gutted.

Started so well, ended so badly. Easter and Wallace can be proud. Bringing on Gray was silly.

James Johnston looks like he couldn't give a toss now

To be fair it didn't end that badly, the 14 ,man attack was impressive and drew the penalties we needed to win. We just decided not to kick them

And I agree, JJ really doesn't look like he cares. Wonder if he's been given a hard time by the likes of Easter backstage leading to his indifference or if he's just decided he doesn't need to be professional in his last few games?

yappysnap wrote:I am gutted.

Started so well, ended so badly. Easter and Wallace can be proud. Bringing on Gray was silly.

Buchanan was blowing a bit at that stage. Game was so helter skelter that replacements were needed. The short tun-round will not have helped Quins either.

But things are not over yet. Next 3 games are eminently winnable and so long as you do not finish 4th, you should be confident of matching whoever you get in play-off semi.

Cockers is praising big Ed ahead of this afternoon. A big display today could see him step closer to that England summer tour with Lawes disappointing in the 6N, Robson miles off form for Quins and Slater's form consigning Kitchener to the bench.

http://m.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/story.html?aid=18563703&category=sport

Would be great to see Slater go on tour with England. Kitchener as well is another talent but can't get a look in, perhaps he'd like to travel south a little to the Big City?

I have always been a big fan of Kitchener, but really not sure what sort of lock he is. He's not a traditional enforcer type 4, nor is he a real lineout tactician at 5.

He's a bit of an inbetweener I guess, is he quite short as well? He always strikes me as being pretty short, almost like a backrow player in the boiler room.

He is quality though.

Bath score two tries within the first 8 minutes (Banahan, Fearns). Donald misses the conversions - but makes it 3rd time lucky with a penalty.

Bath 13 - LW 0 as we move into the second 1/4.

Alex Davies gets LW of the mark with a penalty on 23 minutes - 13-3

Just seen our ref for today

He's 6 foot 6. He can sort of play either role though I think he leans more to the lineout role.

Both second rows signed new contracts not that long ago so keep yer hands off Yappy. Having said that it might well get competitive in the second row next season with 3 academy boys closing in on graduation and all three having already played in the first team. Could get interesting in a couple of years time.

Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

Hood83 wrote:Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

2 Aviva Premierships dont mean anything to you then? Hard man to please. Also Mallinder got Saints to HC final, no mug.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

2 Aviva Premierships dont mean anything to you then? Hard man to please. Also Mallinder got Saints to HC final, no mug.

No mug perhaps but there are definitely questions surrounding Malinder's ability as a top class coach that weren't there a year or so back. In fact it doesn't seem too long ago that he was being touted as a likely replacement for MJ. Fact is Saints look pretty hapless once their power game fails to function so, as is often said against them, they seem to lack a plan B. He also has never quite been able to achieve a fully functioning game plan that employed forwards AND backs without the individual brilliance of players like Foden and Ashton (on form of course). Oh and also big question marks over Malinder's use of squad rotation and subsequent player burn out.

Don't get me wrong, Mallinder always comes across as an honest, hardworking and engaging coach, he just needs to step it up to another level imo. In that regards perhaps Alex King's arrival can't come soon enough?

Beaker wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

2 Aviva Premierships dont mean anything to you then? Hard man to please. Also Mallinder got Saints to HC final, no mug.

No mug perhaps but there are definitely questions surrounding Malinder's ability as a top class coach that weren't there a year or so back. In fact it doesn't seem too long ago that he was being touted as a likely replacement for MJ. Fact is Saints look pretty hapless once their power game fails to function so, as is often said against them, they seem to lack a plan B. He also has never quite been able to achieve a fully functioning game plan that employed forwards AND backs without the individual brilliance of players like Foden and Ashton (on form of course). Oh and also big question marks over Malinder's use of squad rotation and subsequent player burn out.

Don't get me wrong, Mallinder always comes across as an honest, hardworking and engaging coach, he just needs to step it up to another level imo. In that regards perhaps Alex King's arrival can't come soon enough?

Completely agree you there mate, just dont think Hood's derisory comments were justified considering he has some good periods as saints coach, however as you said much to improve on.

One problem with saints is that they have a really poor head to head with the likes of Leicester and Sarries. Saints seem to lack the top two inches. They've been in the playoffs for the last 3 seasons but haven't really shown themselves to be a major contender in my opinion.

Tigers are always there in the mix come the business end in the AP. tigers are the team that most worries me.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

2 Aviva Premierships dont mean anything to you then? Hard man to please. Also Mallinder got Saints to HC final, no mug.

I'm a perfectionist MBC. Although given your student's inability to put down Ashton with sunker punches you're no great shakes at this coaching malarkey either

Well he inherited a pretty decent squad. He's done well with the forwards generally so fair enough, and he's brought on a number of players like Slater and Parling. But there are still big gaps I think. Generally I don't think Tigers forwards offload well before hitting the deck, i don't think they're the best at rucking technique, I don't think they hit the line at pace often enough. It's still very much an attritional arm-wrestle. Still, as you say, 2 Aviva prems is not be dismissed.

Mallinder did a good job building a very competitive pack and OK backs with a couple of real talents. He's then watched it slowly disintegrate. There are some very good young players there but he seems caught between trusting them/trying to get them to kick on and not. Players like Lawes, Hartley etc. have gone backwards under his leadership as well. I think Mallinder and West are one trick ponies but hey ho. They deserve credit for the HC run but everything after deserves equal criticism.

Hood83 wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

2 Aviva Premierships dont mean anything to you then? Hard man to please. Also Mallinder got Saints to HC final, no mug.

I'm a perfectionist MBC. Although given your student's inability to put down Ashton with sunker punches you're no great shakes at this coaching malarkey either

Well he inherited a pretty decent squad. He's done well with the forwards generally so fair enough, and he's brought on a number of players like Slater and Parling. But there are still big gaps I think. Generally I don't think Tigers forwards offload well before hitting the deck, i don't think they're the best at rucking technique, I don't think they hit the line at pace often enough. It's still very much an attritional arm-wrestle. Still, as you say, 2 Aviva prems is not be dismissed.

Mallinder did a good job building a very competitive pack and OK backs with a couple of real talents. He's then watched it slowly disintegrate. There are some very good young players there but he seems caught between trusting them/trying to get them to kick on and not. Players like Lawes, Hartley etc. have gone backwards under his leadership as well. I think Mallinder and West are one trick ponies but hey ho. They deserve credit for the HC run but everything after deserves equal criticism.

Cockers, I agree doesnt put enough emphasis at ruck time, however we do top the try charts regularly so even though at times we are attritional we can play as well. I think Cockers has done a cracking job at Tigers and our side is still relatively young lots of improvement to come IMO.

Mallinder, has built a monstrous pack and when Ashton was firing at his best had a pretty good backline too. I really dont think they are too far away. With Fotuali'i coming next year they will have added guile and a few investments in the centre and back 3 they will continue to be a force if not a greater one. By no means perfect but again a pretty good coach IMO, however I do agree if they dont kick on next year Saints will need to mix things up a bit to avoid the risk of becoming stagnant.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

2 Aviva Premierships dont mean anything to you then? Hard man to please. Also Mallinder got Saints to HC final, no mug.

I'm a perfectionist MBC. Although given your student's inability to put down Ashton with sunker punches you're no great shakes at this coaching malarkey either

Well he inherited a pretty decent squad. He's done well with the forwards generally so fair enough, and he's brought on a number of players like Slater and Parling. But there are still big gaps I think. Generally I don't think Tigers forwards offload well before hitting the deck, i don't think they're the best at rucking technique, I don't think they hit the line at pace often enough. It's still very much an attritional arm-wrestle. Still, as you say, 2 Aviva prems is not be dismissed.

Mallinder did a good job building a very competitive pack and OK backs with a couple of real talents. He's then watched it slowly disintegrate. There are some very good young players there but he seems caught between trusting them/trying to get them to kick on and not. Players like Lawes, Hartley etc. have gone backwards under his leadership as well. I think Mallinder and West are one trick ponies but hey ho. They deserve credit for the HC run but everything after deserves equal criticism.

Cockers, I agree doesnt put enough emphasis at ruck time, however we do top the try charts regularly so even though at times we are attritional we can play as well. I think Cockers has done a cracking job at Tigers and our side is still relatively young lots of improvement to come IMO.

Mallinder, has built a monstrous pack and when Ashton was firing at his best had a pretty good backline too. I really dont think they are too far away. With Fotuali'i coming next year they will have added guile and a few investments in the centre and back 3 they will continue to be a force if not a greater one. By no means perfect but again a pretty good coach IMO, however I do agree if they dont kick on next year Saints will need to mix things up a bit to avoid the risk of becoming stagnant.

I think both are a level below someone like Connor O'Shea, at least in terms of inventiveness and giving their teams more options on how to play. But, Tigers at least have been successful so Cockers is doing something right.

Mallinder, IF he sorts his centres out, could rebuild. But I think it might be terminal, especially if he's looking at strengthening positions of relative strength like 9 and wing with North. If Corbs stays fit, fine. But players like Nutley and Harrison will take a bit of time to come through. Dowson is a fading force, Hartley and Lawes are way off. I think a better coach would have fixed the centres issue or worked out an alternative game plan to suit the smaller centres they now have. Mallinder was incapable of doing this. Looks like they're improving for next year but I still think they'll win nothing.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

2 Aviva Premierships dont mean anything to you then? Hard man to please. Also Mallinder got Saints to HC final, no mug.

I'm a perfectionist MBC. Although given your student's inability to put down Ashton with sunker punches you're no great shakes at this coaching malarkey either

Well he inherited a pretty decent squad. He's done well with the forwards generally so fair enough, and he's brought on a number of players like Slater and Parling. But there are still big gaps I think. Generally I don't think Tigers forwards offload well before hitting the deck, i don't think they're the best at rucking technique, I don't think they hit the line at pace often enough. It's still very much an attritional arm-wrestle. Still, as you say, 2 Aviva prems is not be dismissed.

Mallinder did a good job building a very competitive pack and OK backs with a couple of real talents. He's then watched it slowly disintegrate. There are some very good young players there but he seems caught between trusting them/trying to get them to kick on and not. Players like Lawes, Hartley etc. have gone backwards under his leadership as well. I think Mallinder and West are one trick ponies but hey ho. They deserve credit for the HC run but everything after deserves equal criticism.

Cockers, I agree doesnt put enough emphasis at ruck time, however we do top the try charts regularly so even though at times we are attritional we can play as well. I think Cockers has done a cracking job at Tigers and our side is still relatively young lots of improvement to come IMO.

Mallinder, has built a monstrous pack and when Ashton was firing at his best had a pretty good backline too. I really dont think they are too far away. With Fotuali'i coming next year they will have added guile and a few investments in the centre and back 3 they will continue to be a force if not a greater one. By no means perfect but again a pretty good coach IMO, however I do agree if they dont kick on next year Saints will need to mix things up a bit to avoid the risk of becoming stagnant.

Forgot to say, fair point on the tries scored, I do think you get too much stick for not trying to play running rugby. I just don't think O'Connor has got the best out of your backs. There are basically zero first phase plays.

One of Leicester's biggest talents is unleashing hell on any team that don't compete upfront. They're masters of piling on the points when they get the chance, especially at the end of the season.

But when they come up against tough opposition they go back in to their shells and get in to that ugly attritional stuff. Still win a heck of a lot at that as well though. Except the one that counts.

London Irish (20) 33 - 33 (22) Sale Sharks

That really just about puts the final nail in the LW coffin.

9 Worcester 19 5 1 13 357 425 11 33
10 London Irish 19 6 1 12 386 514 4 30
11 Sale 19 5 1 13 317 520 4 26
12 London Welsh 19 4 0 15 337 519 7 18

That's two wins needed in three games.

Very disappointed not to win that game. I think that after a few wins on the bounce at home we thought we just had to turn up to beat Sale. Complacency has cost us there I reckon.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Very disappointed not to win that game. I think that after a few wins on the bounce at home we thought we just had to turn up to beat Sale. Complacency has cost us there I reckon.

It was very entertaining, though at times the quality - especially defence - was not of the highest order.

Agree on that LT. We didn't look after the ball well enough. I lost count of the number of turnovers we conceded. Will have to watch the game back to see what else went wrong, too caught up in the emotion of the game to take in all aspects of the performance.

Paice's yellow card really hurt LI and was a completely unnecessary penalty to confound the initial penalty by taking out the 9 and getting binned was inexcusable.

The LI backrow was outstanding though and the set pieces worked nicely for them giving them a good foundation throughout.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Beaker wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Given how little I rate Cockerill's coaching, and O'Connor's even less, that should tell you what I think of Mallinder. He's let his team go backwards at a horrible rate. It needs freshening up at Saints I think.

2 Aviva Premierships dont mean anything to you then? Hard man to please. Also Mallinder got Saints to HC final, no mug.

No mug perhaps but there are definitely questions surrounding Malinder's ability as a top class coach that weren't there a year or so back. In fact it doesn't seem too long ago that he was being touted as a likely replacement for MJ. Fact is Saints look pretty hapless once their power game fails to function so, as is often said against them, they seem to lack a plan B. He also has never quite been able to achieve a fully functioning game plan that employed forwards AND backs without the individual brilliance of players like Foden and Ashton (on form of course). Oh and also big question marks over Malinder's use of squad rotation and subsequent player burn out.

Don't get me wrong, Mallinder always comes across as an honest, hardworking and engaging coach, he just needs to step it up to another level imo. In that regards perhaps Alex King's arrival can't come soon enough?

Completely agree you there mate, just dont think Hood's derisory comments were justified considering he has some good periods as saints coach, however as you said much to improve on.

I thought's that was pretty much what I said, Beaker's take is pretty much my view on it. Maybe I was a little more scathing, I just think Mallinder has earned plaudits for being very good at coaching 50% of a squad.

yappysnap wrote:One of Leicester's biggest talents is unleashing hell on any team that don't compete upfront. They're masters of piling on the points when they get the chance, especially at the end of the season.

But when they come up against tough opposition they go back in to their shells and get in to that ugly attritional stuff. Still win a heck of a lot at that as well though. Except the one that counts.

The sheer volume of silverware in the Tigers' trophy cabinet would suggest that statement is innacurate. I put it to you that your comment was a bit of a jealous dig at Leicester based on last year's final and that right now, Quins are going backwards whilst Tigers are coming nicely to the boil..

I actually have to agree with Jimpy. As I have said before Tigers are always there in the mix. Consistently challenging for the AP title.

Tigers are the team I am most wary of and that won't change till other sides like Saints and Quins can challenge us in the head to head department.

I wouldn't say Quins are going backwards though yet. Too early to say. Beating Munster is crucial to see where they are. A win would put them back on track in my opinion.

Sarries away and Gloucester away were always going to be tough for Quins.

beshocked wrote:I actually have to agree with Jimpy. As I have said before Tigers are always there in the mix. Consistently challenging for the AP title.

Tigers are the team I am most wary of and that won't change till other sides like Saints and Quins can challenge us in the head to head department.

I wouldn't say Quins are going backwards though yet. Too early to say. Beating Munster is crucial to see where they are. A win would put them back on track in my opinion.

Sarries away and Gloucester away were always going to be tough for Quins.

Hmmmmm with just three matches left of the regular season, I'd say that its not too early to say that. Remember, Quins were 5 points clear at the top until just a few weeks ago, they're now third and 6 points behind Tigers - that, to me, is going backwards and at a rate of knots too.

Tigers will need to beat Wasps at Welford Rd before a home semi-final is likely, because they've a tough away match to Bath the week after. I've got a bad feeling that they'll get mauled by Toulon at the weekend and it'll take too much out of them for the Wasps game.

We have lost more finals than we have won in the last 10 seasons:

Won:
2007 A/W Final
2007 Premiership Final
2009 Premiership Final
2010 Premiership final
2012 A/W Final


Lost:
2005 Premierhsip Final
2006 Premiership Final
2007 Heineken Cup Final
2008 A/W final
2008 Premiership Final
2009 Heineken Cup Final
2011 Premiership Final
2012 Premiership Final

LondonTiger wrote:We have lost more finals than we have won in the last 10 seasons:

Won:
2007 A/W Final
2007 Premiership Final
2009 Premiership Final
2010 Premiership final
2012 A/W Final


Lost:
2005 Premierhsip Final
2006 Premiership Final
2007 Heineken Cup Final
2008 A/W final
2008 Premiership Final
2009 Heineken Cup Final
2011 Premiership Final
2012 Premiership Final

And yet, I doubt there are many teams in the AP that would say no to that amount of titles in the same period....

indeed the success record is admirable - just lends weight to the argument that we can falter at the final hurdle.

Yeh, I am not sure if that record says more about our record in the finals or more about our ability to get to the final. It is no doubt a problem other teams would love to have

Undeniably it is something that is worrying, its not that we choke under the pressure, its just that the sense of the occasion seems to inspire our opponents more than us especially with the last 2 AP finals anyway.

LondonTiger wrote:indeed the success record is admirable - just lends weight to the argument that we can falter at the final hurdle.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:Undeniably it is something that is worrying, its not that we choke under the pressure, its just that the sense of the occasion seems to inspire our opponents more than us especially with the last 2 AP finals anyway.

Well, somebody has to lose.... I don't know for certain, so i'm asking a genuine question here. In the same period of time, has any one team in the AP won more titles? If not, that would suggest that Tigers havent choked as much as others have suggested.