Irish Provinces and NIQ, with particular reference to Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Firstly good to be back.
The main reason for my absence being a family illness which has taken its toll

But enough of that back to the matter in hand.


I thought I would clarify the above specifically the fact the 1 player per position, cannot replace a player in the same position idea Dublin had is dead in the water. I think they realized it was too perscriptive and was unworkable. The new approach is to work with the Provinces to reduce the NIQ over the course of time.
With respect to Ulstrer the scenario goes something like this:

Williams the most straight forward. He will be retained as long as it suits both parties but he may only be offered 1 year contracts. If he leaves a NIQ backrower will probably be signed to replace with leadership qualities to the fore - see Muller below.

Afoa the most complicated. Irish rugby has a huge problem at TH as we all know. However Dublin do recognise that simply stopping NIQ players is not going to help. If players of the right quality are not available where do we go? - there are recognized safety issues in putting young players in before they are ready.I think both Munster and Ulster will be allowed to retain a NIQ player , or preferable a 'Project player' beyond 2014. In Ulster case I think the hope is a potentail project player can be found for next year so that when Afoa leaves in 2014 ( a certainty) he will be 2 years away from qualification. Scouting is happening as we speak. All sort of options - I could see Leinster being forced to give up 1 of their 5 IQ TH's, Humphreys eating humble pie and talking to Andress. I can see Botha staying at Munster for a further year if he wants. The whole thing is a mess in truth.

Payne will either become Irish qualified in 2014 or will leave. If he leaves he will not be replaced - the feeling is Ulster in Nelson, Andrew, D'Arcy (if he stays) and Olding have sufficient potential that a NIQ replacement cannot be justified.

Muller will not be replaced when he retires. He will be 34 at the end of his current contract in the summer of 2014. The feeling being that Tuohy, Stevenson, McComb, Henderson plus the promise of the youngest - Simpson and O'Connor is more than enough. McComb at 30 is the oldest of these players and as of yesterday all contracts for these players have been sorted.

Pienaer Ulster want to give he a contract beyond 2014 (2 more years?). The arguement is beyond Marshall and Heaney we do not have the talent coming through. Also the arguement is by them the young 10 talent will be mature enough - Jackson, Olding, McKinney? (Rumour is he may be coming back - with NOC leaving in the summer)

The net effect of all this is Ulster will have 2 NIQ players for 2014-2015, and a TH who will, probably be what we used to call a Project. I believe Munster and Leinster are in similar conversations in working out a measured way of droping the NIQ numbers without falling off a cliff performance wise

As a little aside some other Ulster snippets:

Doyle is out for the sason, probably Nelson too. Doyle had to have a second operation.
Trimble and Ferris the only contracts, of note, outstanding and that is only because their central contracts are up this summer - no danger of either leaving.
Spoke to Nick Wiliams on Friday - what a total gent - you could not meet a nicer fella.
Paddy McAllister is growing the beard because he was one of the closest friends of Nevin Spence and he is doing as a charity funding raising activity (also a really nice personable individual). He is putting on some serious muscle - he will be a beast next year
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I love the way the likes of Payne has already become IQ in the minds of some, while Roux and Stander have not. :-)
Key difference - if what I am hearing is correct all Provinces will be expected to reduce to 3 NIQ for 2014-15.

Payne will be ok by them - Stander and Roux on the other hand will take up one of the 3 slots at their province

geoff998rugby wrote:The directive is dead in the water Dublin just dont have the balls to come out and publically admit it.

I suspect ther Munster TH situation will be the signing that shows this.
If they stick by the rules Botha should not be retained or replaced by a NIQ or a Project player.

I think we are basically not disagreeing with each other here.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:OK so the "directives" that the IRFU came out with are no longer "Rules" but they are still "Guidelines". i.e. provinces will have to make a good case to get around them. So they are still a usefull way to look at things.

And as I said in my post. This presumes that Botha wants to stay in the face of offers from France.

The IRFU couldn't stop Jonny Sexton going (Who would have had his loyalty to Leinster and Ireland to wrestle with) so how will they stop BJ?

Ulster have another year before they have to worry, but then they could loose up to 1/3 of their starting 15



Wont happen for reasons I have explained.

Both Pienaer and Williams wat to stay and I believe will be allowed to.
I also think, on balance, that Payne will stay - he is enjoying life here.

Muller will retire and Afoa will go back home to try and get a World Cup spot (also his wife doesn't want to live here). That is the essence of the agreement with Dubln - if you lose 2 players you cankeep the others

I don't think they will stop BJ - BUT Munster may well be allowed to sign a Project or, at last resort, a NIQ TH.

geoff998rugby wrote:

J McL wrote:I love the way the likes of Payne has already become IQ in the minds of some, while Roux and Stander have not. :-)

Key difference - if what I am hearing is correct all Provinces will be expected to reduce to 3 NIQ for 2014-15.

Payne will be ok by them - Stander and Roux on the other hand will take up one of the 3 slots at their province

Still doesn't make him IQ yet.

geoff998rugby wrote:

J McL wrote:Ulster have another year before they have to worry, but then they could loose up to 1/3 of their starting 15

Wont happen for reasons I have explained.

Both Pienaer and Williams wat to stay and I believe will be allowed to.
I also think, on balance, that Payne will stay - he is enjoying life here.

Muller will retire and Afoa will go back home to try and get a World Cup spot (also his wife doesn't want to live here). That is the essence of the agreement with Dubln - if you lose 2 players you cankeep the others

I didn't say it would. You missed the bolded words. (Do you not like quoting me btw? Are you prejudiced against Ladyboys? )

geoff998rugby wrote:I don't think they will stop BJ - BUT Munster may well be allowed to sign a Project or, at last resort, a NIQ TH.

For sure.

Most likely get one of ours though. Perhaps as well as an NIQ.

I've just come across this article on the IRFU page and it's raised a few questions for me:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/irfu-ruling-will-open-door-to-dricos-irish-understudies-222459.html

IRFU ruling states that since Munster signed Casey Laulala, no non-IQ foreign player will be allowed to sign and wear the 13 jersey. Obviously, this is in accordance with their ruling. But what if they were to sign a centre who primarily plays at 12, and needed him to cover 13 for one game? Would that be allowed, or for the rest of his career at Leinster, would they only be allowed to wear the 12 jersey?

As I say don't believe what you read in the papers the directive is history....

Really? How come geoff?

The Provinces kicked up a stink and said it was unworkable.

However it has not come without concession hence the OP.

All Provinces are striving to be down to to 3 NIQ for 2014-15 but it will not be ridgely applied there will be a level of flexibility.

No frontline TH or 10 included.

(At least I am making that assumption as that is the goal at Ulster)

However there will be concessions.
e.g. a TH at Munster or Ulster
4 total at Leinster because 2 are Projects ending in 2015
If Muller wants to play a further year Ulster will be allowed 4

That sort of thing.
Basically a give and take agreement rather than hard and fast rules

Rumour has it that Munster were told to lose Wian if we wanted to keep BJ for 2 years (Munster actually only want BJ for 1 Year, but BJ has offers so you can't blame him wanting a 2 year contract). We'll know about BJ this week (sounds like he is staying).

Howlett to remain in a coaching capacity.

Lauala & Wian have contracts until the end of next season so after that we'll only have BJ as a NIQ as we look to be fairly well covered otherwise.

We could probably do with a back-up scrumhalf though next year.

Munster have locks, backrows and hookers coming out their ears.

What I've heard (independently of Geoff) is that talk of directives is now talk of guidelines.

It's a power play between the IRFU and provinces- for the IRFU to get what they want they need to work with the provinces. They can't enforce rules if the provinces don't play ball. Classic negotiating tactic from position of strength- start with unrealistically prohibitive offer. Frame it as an ultimatum.

When you climbdown to your original goal the other party treats it as a win and neglects to realise if you came out with that in the first place they'd have raised a stink.

See also; playing hardball.
See also; Anglo-French negotiating tactics over the future format of ERC competitions.

Goodman is not a Project Geoff. he may or may not be kept at the end of the season. the noises are that Roux will stay and be a project. you can only have one anyway.

I would say that Goodman will only be kept if we don't need his spot and even then ....

afaik he is playing for a contract for next season. he is a good solid rabo option and a break glass in case of emergency hc option.

Sin é wrote:Rumour has it that Munster were told to lose Wian if we wanted to keep BJ for 2 years (Munster actually only want BJ for 1 Year, but BJ has offers so you can't blame him wanting a 2 year contract). We'll know about BJ this week (sounds like he is staying).

Howlett to remain in a coaching capacity.

Lauala & Wian have contracts until the end of next season so after that we'll only have BJ as a NIQ as we look to be fairly well covered otherwise.

We could probably do with a back-up scrumhalf though next year.

Munster have locks, backrows and hookers coming out their ears.

interesting.

I thought you might be looking a little tight at hooker. Is varley staying? or are you going with rael &scannel behind sherry?

What I heard is that munster will be given dispensation to offer BJ a two year deal by getting rid of DuPreez a year early. That would indeed show the rules are dead in the water

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:Rumour has it that Munster were told to lose Wian if we wanted to keep BJ for 2 years (Munster actually only want BJ for 1 Year, but BJ has offers so you can't blame him wanting a 2 year contract). We'll know about BJ this week (sounds like he is staying).

Howlett to remain in a coaching capacity.

Lauala & Wian have contracts until the end of next season so after that we'll only have BJ as a NIQ as we look to be fairly well covered otherwise.

We could probably do with a back-up scrumhalf though next year.

Munster have locks, backrows and hookers coming out their ears.

interesting.

I thought you might be looking a little tight at hooker. Is varley staying? or are you going with rael &scannel behind sherry?

Apparently Fla has been coaching Varley and his throwing is much better, but I'd imagine Munster will try and keep him (they wanted to keep Fogs last year so I'd imagine they'd want to hold onto Varley). Scannell looks to be good - rael maybe a bit over-hyped.

Standulstermen wrote:What I heard is that munster will be given dispensation to offer BJ a two year deal by getting rid of DuPreez a year early. That would indeed show the rules are dead in the water

Mitigating circumstances for Munster & IRFU over tighthead. The IRFU screwed up badly when negotiating Buckley's contract and left Munster in a right mess.

Andress was reportedly coming to Munster when he thought Buckley was there, but when he heard BJ was coming he decided against it.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:What I heard is that munster will be given dispensation to offer BJ a two year deal by getting rid of DuPreez a year early. That would indeed show the rules are dead in the water

Mitigating circumstances for Munster & IRFU over tighthead. The IRFU screwed up badly when negotiating Buckley's contract and left Munster in a right mess.

Andress was reportedly coming to Munster when he thought Buckley was there, but when he heard BJ was coming he decided against it.

Heard the same thing about Ulster and Afoa.

In a sense, don't blame Ulster or Munster for this. Because Andress hasn't covered himself in glory. He seems to be willing to come back to Ireland if assured of being first choice. But his accomplishments in his career so far don't merit being an automatic first choice. I would like to see him in the position of being a bench prop and working hard to being able to succeed an NIQ of the requisite quality.

We need Irish tighteads to get gametime. But more than that, we need them to earn the right to get gametime. We can't give it to them on a plate. Very tricky balance to be struck here.

Sin é wrote:Rumour has it that Munster were told to lose Wian if we wanted to keep BJ for 2 years (Munster actually only want BJ for 1 Year, but BJ has offers so you can't blame him wanting a 2 year contract). We'll know about BJ this week (sounds like he is staying).

Howlett to remain in a coaching capacity.

That fits in exactly with what I have heard.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Goodman is not a Project Geoff. he may or may not be kept at the end of the season. the noises are that Roux will stay and be a project. you can only have one anyway.

.

Someone else said Goodman was a Project not me

Project as such are dead in the water.
Going forward the key is to reduce the number of NIQ for whatever reason.
A province would be allowed 3 Projects at the same time - provided there were no permanently NIQ players on the books

Notch wrote: In a sense, don't blame Ulster or Munster for this. Because Andress hasn't covered himself in glory. He seems to be willing to come back to Ireland if assured of being first choice. But his accomplishments in his career so far don't merit being an automatic first choice. I would like to see him in the position of being a bench prop and working hard to being able to succeed an NIQ of the requisite quality.

We need Irish tighteads to get gametime. But more than that, we need them to earn the right to get gametime. We can't give it to them on a plate. Very tricky balance to be struck here.

Unfair on Andress.

He left in the middle of the last decade along with 13 others when we were an apology of a professional rugby team.
He spoke his mind in no uncertain terms. What he said was right but being a headstrong youth he probably did it the wrong way. He has since gone to England and been a solid, if unspectacular player, in the Aviva for Quins, Chiefs and Warriors.

Before going to the Warriors he was offered a position at Ulster.
Because Cory Jane pulled out we realised we could get Payne as a Project asnd sign Afoa as a NIQ TH.
As such Ulster pulled the plug on the deal not Andress. I have no knowledge of the Munster deal.

Why should he come back as backup to a NIQ TH - he is the second best IQ TH, 28 years of age and playing regularly in the Aviva. He has played 12 starts and 8 from the bench this year. Euan Murray who is the other TH at the club has had 5 starts and 2 as sub. He is getting plenty of game time

Simple fact is Ireland need him more than he needs Ireland, he has been jerked around by Ulster rugby and will only come back on his terms - given the way he has been treated I dont blame him. Either he is first choice at a province or Irish rugby has lost him, or they need to consider him as an exception like Murphy, Bowe and next year Sexton.

Irish rugby is not in a strong position on this.

Geoff, Murray has less starts because he only joined Wuss in November and since then he's been away on international duties with the AIs and 6Ns - there's no question who's top dog. That being said, a solid tighthead on the bench is essential for all teams these days and almost always gets a run, so there is a role for Andress for sure. However, I'm pretty sure that (to paraphrase your good self) Irish rugby is bigger than a second choice TH at a bottom-half AP team

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Goodman is not a Project Geoff. he may or may not be kept at the end of the season. the noises are that Roux will stay and be a project. you can only have one anyway.

.

Someone else said Goodman was a Project not me

Project as such are dead in the water.
Going forward the key is to reduce the number of NIQ for whatever reason.
A province would be allowed 3 Projects at the same time - provided there were no permanently NIQ players on the books

Sorry Geoff. I know you are a good bloke and I am not trying to pi$$ you off, but......

All I did was put the situation in black and white on who was who in all of the provinces with regard to NIQs. As I felt it was being misrepresented.

I think the following quoted portion of my post is 100% factually accurate.

I also made the distinction between NIQs and NIEs i.e players who have played for another country's full intl, 7s or designated "A" team are all NIE. players who have not can be NIQ but COULD qualify by playing here for 3 years.

At no point did I claim Goodman was a project player.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:These are the ACTUAL current standings.
Current contract end date, position, and who is NIE or NIQ

Leinster

Nacewa......2014 Position 11......NIE
Goodman......2013 Position 12......NIQ until 2015
Van der Merwe......2013 Position 1......NIE
Free spot
Roux......2013 Position 5......NIQ until 2015

Ulster

Pienaar......2014 Position 9......NIE
Muller ......2014 Position 4......NIE
Afoa......2014 Position 3......NIE
Williams......2014 Position 8......NIE
Payne......2014 Position 15......NIQ until 2014

Munster

Howlett......2013 Position 14......NIE
Botha......2013 Position 3......NIE
Laulala......2014 Position 13......NIE
Du Preez......2014 Position 1......NIE
Stander......2014 Position 6......NIQ until 2015

It was you that said it.

geoff998rugby wrote:
4 total at Leinster because 2 are Projects ending in 2015

I would be surprised if anyone other than me even noticed that Goodman was the only "non project" player who was not NIE

So why is he NIE but not a Project - what is his situation/status

geoff998rugby wrote:So why is he NIE but not a Project - what is his situation/status

He is not NIE. As I said he is the only one, other than the 3 designated project players, who is not.

He is not a project player because you can only have one (under current situation) He is just a lad who played NPC/ITM cup in NZ and was a good solid player. He fancied a trip to the NH and we signed him as cover for the 12 and 10 slot.

He would be 3rd choice 12 and 4th choice 10.

He is here for a year. If he goes well and we don't need his spot for someone else he could get another year.

That would give him the option of a third year (say in Connacht) If he liked it here and wanted to stay.

He would then be IQ, but would probably never get capped. Possibly get a Wolfhounds cap or whatever.

Who knows? Like all Kiwis he has very good basics. He is a big lump of a lad and can surely play Rugby. Kicks goals too.

Roux only became our "project" player in Oct when Strauss qualified to play for Ireland.

Payne, Roux and Stander are also projects because they would have some chance of being good enough to actually play for Ireland.

Projects have not always worked out. (Borlaise or Sykes for example)

Even some who are still here. Wilkinson in Connacht qualified a few years ago but he never got further than an A cap.

AFAIK Strauss was the first. Certainly in the last 10 years.

The Term Project is being droped so it is pretty academic to be honest.

As I say from next year onwards it is a simple IE/NIE split; which is better imv. There are no Project next year every one is either in or out.

Project or not, doesn't really matter what way the IRFU look at it. As soon as Goodman moved here he started getting closer to the day when he will qualify for Ireland on residency. Would I be right in saying that?

Notch wrote:Project or not, doesn't really matter what way the IRFU look at it. As soon as Goodman moved here he started getting closer to the day when he will qualify for Ireland on residency. Would I be right in saying that?

Yes. That's what I was getting at in trying to make a distinction between NIQ and NIE.

geoff998rugby wrote:The Term Project is being droped so it is pretty academic to be honest.

As I say from next year onwards it is a simple IE/NIE split; which is better imv. There are no Project next year every one is either in or out.

There will surely be a distinction between NIQ and NIE though? Otherwise we have given up on the whole residency thing.

We have given up the residency thing.

They want the Provinces to move towards only 3 players in the squad who are not IQ in a given season. Whether or not they ultimately become IQ makes no difference to the ceiling.

As I said though not hard and fast - if it is seen as unavoidable (due to short term talent deficiency) , or to reward a player with many years loyal service, an extra player may be tolerated for a year.

geoff998rugby wrote:The Provinces kicked up a stink and said it was unworkable.

However it has not come without concession hence the OP.

All Provinces are striving to be down to to 3 NIQ for 2014-15 but it will not be ridgely applied there will be a level of flexibility.

No frontline TH or 10 included.

(At least I am making that assumption as that is the goal at Ulster)

However there will be concessions.
e.g. a TH at Munster or Ulster
4 total at Leinster because 2 are Projects ending in 2015
If Muller wants to play a further year Ulster will be allowed 4

That sort of thing.
Basically a give and take agreement rather than hard and fast rules

Cheers Geoff, I had a no idea

Is Stander a project or IE though? From what I remember he only signed a 2 year deal, so unless he extends it he is just another foreign lad playing here.

Thomond wrote:Is Stander a project or IE though? From what I remember he only signed a 2 year deal, so unless he extends it he is just another foreign lad playing here.

Roux is only on a 1 year. Project only means that you get to use an extra NIQ spot if the player is not already excluded from ever playing for Ireland, and if what Geoff says is true (and I have no reason to doubt him) It will mean even less in 18 months time.

Currently there is nothing to stop ALL of your NIQs being eligible to eventually play for Ireland. At the start of the season 3 of Leinster's were.

Mostly when you are going for Marquee players, Like all 4 of Ulsters current crop, they tend to be already NIE. But if you are signing Squad players they will be much less likely to be.

Thomond wrote:Is Stander a project or IE though? From what I remember he only signed a 2 year deal, so unless he extends it he is just another foreign lad playing here.

It seems sensible to have an out option after 2 years. If both parties are happy at that stage, then the contract can be extended. Straus is the only Project who has worked out to date.

Stander is definately a Project as Munster already had their quota of 4 NIQ already (Wian, BJ, Doug & KC). He has also spoken about hoping to play for Ireland (interviews up on munster website).

Some player that Stander, hasn't he been injured a fair bit though? I'd have him for Ireland ahead of POM or Heaslip anydays.....

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Thomond wrote:Is Stander a project or IE though? From what I remember he only signed a 2 year deal, so unless he extends it he is just another foreign lad playing here.

Roux is only on a 1 year. Project only means that you get to use an extra NIQ spot if the player is not already excluded from ever playing for Ireland, and if what Geoff says is true (and I have no reason to doubt him) It will mean even less in 18 months time.

Currently there is nothing to stop ALL of your NIQs being eligible to eventually play for Ireland. At the start of the season 3 of Leinster's were.

Mostly when you are going for Marquee players, Like all 4 of Ulsters current crop, they tend to be already NIE. But if you are signing Squad players they will be much less likely to be.

Is Nick Williams capped for any representative sides anyone?

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:Is Stander a project or IE though? From what I remember he only signed a 2 year deal, so unless he extends it he is just another foreign lad playing here.

It seems sensible to have an out option after 2 years. If both parties are happy at that stage, then the contract can be extended. Straus is the only Project who has worked out to date.

Stander is definately a Project as Munster already had their quota of 4 NIQ already (Wian, BJ, Doug & KC). He has also spoken about hoping to play for Ireland (interviews up on munster website).

I heard Stander was told that he was not tall enough to ever play for the Boks

He did Captain the Baby Boks though.

Sykes said the same when he arrived in Leinster. He was not a week off the plane when he said "In 3 years I can play in Green. Not as good as Green and Gold, but good enough"

When I heard that I hoped he would never play for Ireland. He barely played for Leinster ffs.

We gave out 2 x 3 year contracts in a row to him and Ed O'D. So I reckon we were cautious with Roux in giving him a 1 year.

By all accounts he is well regarded despite only playing twice and getting injured both times it looks like he will be kept and he wants to stay. Bit like Payne in Ulster, hopefully he will be as useful.

Notch wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Thomond wrote:Is Stander a project or IE though? From what I remember he only signed a 2 year deal, so unless he extends it he is just another foreign lad playing here.

Roux is only on a 1 year. Project only means that you get to use an extra NIQ spot if the player is not already excluded from ever playing for Ireland, and if what Geoff says is true (and I have no reason to doubt him) It will mean even less in 18 months time.

Currently there is nothing to stop ALL of your NIQs being eligible to eventually play for Ireland. At the start of the season 3 of Leinster's were.

Mostly when you are going for Marquee players, Like all 4 of Ulsters current crop, they tend to be already NIE. But if you are signing Squad players they will be much less likely to be.

Is Nick Williams capped for any representative sides anyone?

ABs dedicated A side. (Which I think is their U20s rather than the Maori)

I looked it up, and Williams has played for the Junior All Blacks so is in the definitely NIE category. His wikipedia page boasts the following pearl;

Nick Williams (born 2 December 1983 in Auckland, New Zealand) is a rugby union player who currently plays for Ulster. His position is No 8, Williams appears as Zeke Beakerman in the TV series Wizards of Waverly Place.

Zeke Beakerman, Disney TV character

Spoiler:

Nick Williams, rugby player

Spoiler:

...what?

Maybe it was meant to say "Nick Williams' breakfast appears as Zeke Beakerman in the TV series Wizards of Waverly Place." Fine work, unknown wikipedia hatchetman. Fine work

I just did the same thing Notch!!!

I was starting to wonder if you had changed the Wiki page in the hope we would all check it out!!!!

Notch wrote:I looked it up, and Williams has played for the Junior All Blacks

Sorry that's what I meant. Not the U20s (Baby blacks) The Junior All Blacks are not Junior in age they are just the A side.

If I remember rightly Paul Warwick played 7s for Australia which meant he could not play for Ireland.

These are the 2 sides that make you ineligible for another country (7s and A) besides the full International team.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:Is Stander a project or IE though? From what I remember he only signed a 2 year deal, so unless he extends it he is just another foreign lad playing here.

It seems sensible to have an out option after 2 years. If both parties are happy at that stage, then the contract can be extended. Straus is the only Project who has worked out to date.

Stander is definately a Project as Munster already had their quota of 4 NIQ already (Wian, BJ, Doug & KC). He has also spoken about hoping to play for Ireland (interviews up on munster website).

I heard Stander was told that he was not tall enough to ever play for the Boks

He did Captain the Baby Boks though.

Sykes said the same when he arrived in Leinster. He was not a week off the plane when he said "In 3 years I can play in Green. Not as good as Green and Gold, but good enough"

When I heard that I hoped he would never play for Ireland. He barely played for Leinster ffs.

CJ comes across as a very nice lad - I don't think he is anything like Sykes.

“When I decided to come here I said to myself I wanted to come to a team, to a club that’s amongst the best in the world.

“After that, coming to Ireland as a project player, to play for Ireland is just a great honour. In the first few weeks here people have been amazing — the way they support you — it’s a rugby culture.”

Of all the players who do come here, the Saffers really seem to fit in well here and come across as really great lads - Gert Smal, Shaun Payne, Straus, Wian, BJ (only mentioning the ones I've seen a good bit of).

Isn't the rule something like the "A" team ties you if you played against the "A"s of another nation?

Remember all the Shingler debacle?

Sin, ahem- Johann Muller, Pedrie Wannenburg, Ollie Le Roux, Ruan Pienaar, Alan Solomons, Richardt Strauss?

MrsP wrote:Isn't the rule something like the "A" team ties you if you played against the "A"s of another nation?

Remember all the Shingler debacle?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

These are the 2 sides that make you ineligible for another country (7s and A) besides the full International team.

It can be confusing as the ABs A team is called the Junior ABs and the Welsh rugby designated "A" team is the U20s. Which I think caused the confusion you refer to.

Yes, New Zealand U20s is a different thing altogether. But of Wales U20s were to play New Zealand U20s Wales may try to claim that the fixture is binding in terms of allegiance- they have a precedent of doing this

Clear as day!

But the Wales U20s players are only tied if they play against another Nation's declared 2nd Senior side.

So Wales U20 v Ireland U 20 would not tie you to Wales.

MrsP wrote:But the Wales U20s players are only tied if they play against another Nation's declared 2nd Senior side.

So Wales U20 v Ireland U 20 would not tie you to Wales.

Ahh. Interesting. I thought you only had to play for them. That's how the Welsh lads were able to join Connacht a few years ago then.

I remember there was a bit of uncertainty about it.