Irish Provinces and NIQ, with particular reference to Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Firstly good to be back.
The main reason for my absence being a family illness which has taken its toll

But enough of that back to the matter in hand.


I thought I would clarify the above specifically the fact the 1 player per position, cannot replace a player in the same position idea Dublin had is dead in the water. I think they realized it was too perscriptive and was unworkable. The new approach is to work with the Provinces to reduce the NIQ over the course of time.
With respect to Ulstrer the scenario goes something like this:

Williams the most straight forward. He will be retained as long as it suits both parties but he may only be offered 1 year contracts. If he leaves a NIQ backrower will probably be signed to replace with leadership qualities to the fore - see Muller below.

Afoa the most complicated. Irish rugby has a huge problem at TH as we all know. However Dublin do recognise that simply stopping NIQ players is not going to help. If players of the right quality are not available where do we go? - there are recognized safety issues in putting young players in before they are ready.I think both Munster and Ulster will be allowed to retain a NIQ player , or preferable a 'Project player' beyond 2014. In Ulster case I think the hope is a potentail project player can be found for next year so that when Afoa leaves in 2014 ( a certainty) he will be 2 years away from qualification. Scouting is happening as we speak. All sort of options - I could see Leinster being forced to give up 1 of their 5 IQ TH's, Humphreys eating humble pie and talking to Andress. I can see Botha staying at Munster for a further year if he wants. The whole thing is a mess in truth.

Payne will either become Irish qualified in 2014 or will leave. If he leaves he will not be replaced - the feeling is Ulster in Nelson, Andrew, D'Arcy (if he stays) and Olding have sufficient potential that a NIQ replacement cannot be justified.

Muller will not be replaced when he retires. He will be 34 at the end of his current contract in the summer of 2014. The feeling being that Tuohy, Stevenson, McComb, Henderson plus the promise of the youngest - Simpson and O'Connor is more than enough. McComb at 30 is the oldest of these players and as of yesterday all contracts for these players have been sorted.

Pienaer Ulster want to give he a contract beyond 2014 (2 more years?). The arguement is beyond Marshall and Heaney we do not have the talent coming through. Also the arguement is by them the young 10 talent will be mature enough - Jackson, Olding, McKinney? (Rumour is he may be coming back - with NOC leaving in the summer)

The net effect of all this is Ulster will have 2 NIQ players for 2014-2015, and a TH who will, probably be what we used to call a Project. I believe Munster and Leinster are in similar conversations in working out a measured way of droping the NIQ numbers without falling off a cliff performance wise

As a little aside some other Ulster snippets:

Doyle is out for the sason, probably Nelson too. Doyle had to have a second operation.
Trimble and Ferris the only contracts, of note, outstanding and that is only because their central contracts are up this summer - no danger of either leaving.
Spoke to Nick Wiliams on Friday - what a total gent - you could not meet a nicer fella.
Paddy McAllister is growing the beard because he was one of the closest friends of Nevin Spence and he is doing as a charity funding raising activity (also a really nice personable individual). He is putting on some serious muscle - he will be a beast next year
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Notch wrote:Sin, ahem- Johann Muller, Pedrie Wannenburg, Ollie Le Roux, Ruan Pienaar, Alan Solomons, Richardt Strauss?

Ahem!

Of all the players who do come here, the Saffers really seem to fit in well here and come across as really great lads - Gert Smal, Shaun Payne, Straus, Wian, BJ (only mentioning the ones I've seen a good bit of).

The point MrsP makes is the crux of that dispute. Is it playing for the designated second team, or playing in a game between two designated second teams? Can't remember the resolution if any.

Personally think letting this be done at U20s level is a massive fudge in the first place.

its 7's and the designated second team (Ireland wolfhounds, AB's junior AB's, England Saxons) lacking an 'A' team the Union designates an underage team as there second team (wales under 20), caps for an age grade 'A' team only tie you to that country if you play against another designated second team.

Ie,
Wales under 20's (designated 'A' team) played France under 20's (not France's designated 'A' team) and two players (can't mind thier names) Left wales and for Connacht and still fine to play for Ireland.
The next year France designated the under 20's as thier 'A' team, so when Shingler played he was tied to Wales.
If it was Wales under 20's (designated 'A' team) V Irish under 20's (not the 'A' team as wolfhounds are) then he would have been fine to play for Scotland.

What every it is Nick Williams can never be an Irishman

At least that is what Ulster understand

geoff998rugby wrote:What every it is Nick Williams can never be an Irishman

Oh, absolutely. He'll never be an Irishman.

The salient point is- can he play for Ireland? Answer is still no.

I thought it a bit silly that Paul Warwick who has an Irish passport and Irish citizenship could never play for Ireland due to his 7's cap, but Strauss who does not and cannot yet apply for an Irish passport or citizenship can!!

I don't have an issue with Strauss or any other player, its the rule I don't like.

Kingshu wrote:its 7's and the designated second team (Ireland wolfhounds, AB's junior AB's, England Saxons) lacking an 'A' team the Union designates an underage team as there second team (wales under 20), caps for an age grade 'A' team only tie you to that country if you play against another designated second team.

Ie,
Wales under 20's (designated 'A' team) played France under 20's (not France's designated 'A' team) and two players (can't mind thier names) Left wales and for Connacht and still fine to play for Ireland.
The next year France designated the under 20's as thier 'A' team, so when Shingler played he was tied to Wales.
If it was Wales under 20's (designated 'A' team) V Irish under 20's (not the 'A' team as wolfhounds are) then he would have been fine to play for Scotland.

Mathew Jarvis was one I think. That's what I was referring to in my previous post. I think he was behind Niall O'Connor though.

Kingshu wrote:I thought it a bit silly that Paul Warwick who has an Irish passport and Irish citizenship could never play for Ireland due to his 7's cap, but Strauss who does not and cannot yet apply for an Irish passport or citizenship can!!

I don't have an issue with Strauss or any other player, its the rule I don't like.

Them's the rules. Stephen Moore, the Aussie hooker has both parents from Ireland. I think they even met and married here before emigrating. He could have played for us.

Rhys Ruddock can never play for Wales because of his one senior cap over here. Despite his Da being a former coach of the National side. (And current U20s Ireland coach)

I don't think the hassle with the Welsh lads who went to Connacht was ever that Ireland wanted to select them, it was just that they would have put Connacht in a tricky position with reguard to NIQs and so would have jeopardised their contracts, no?

MrsP wrote:I don't think the hassle with the Welsh lads who went to Connacht was ever that Ireland wanted to select them, it was just that they would have put Connacht in a tricky position with reguard to NIQs and so would have jeopardised their contracts, no?

Yep. Precisely.

It was ludicrous as Wales didn't want to select them either. It was the pettiest thing. After they failed to secure decent contracts in Wales, or any international recognition after they graduated from U20s level, the WRU knowingly made it an issue despite that jeopardising their jobs in Ireland.

It can and will be defended as a point of principle but we tend to lose sight of the fact it was the livelihood of two young men they nearly wrecked. Making a career in pro rugby is hard enough; for most it's a a labour of love as the pay is average and the job security is poor below the elite-level players. Those two lads, their careers in Wales had stalled. Fail to get a regional contract and it's back to looking for normal work with everyone else most likely.

Didn't think the WRU showed much regard for the players as people throughout that incident. But as potential future commodities so if they came good they could be welcomed back into the fold.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I thought it a bit silly that Paul Warwick who has an Irish passport and Irish citizenship could never play for Ireland due to his 7's cap, but Strauss who does not and cannot yet apply for an Irish passport or citizenship can!!

I don't have an issue with Strauss or any other player, its the rule I don't like.

Them's the rules. Stephen Moore, the Aussie hooker has both parents from Ireland. I think they even met and married here before emigrating. He could have played for us.

Rhys Ruddock can never play for Wales because of his one senior cap over here. Despite his Da being a former coach of the National side. (And current U20s Ireland coach)

Stephen Moore has very close connections in Ireland - he was watching and tweeting to Laurie Fischer about the football All Ireland last Sept. From wiki:

Stephen still has a large family based in Ireland, which includes cousins Siobhan Byrne, an international fencer who represented Ireland at the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, and Patrick O’Rourke, who plays All Ireland Gaelic Football for Meath. Stephen also retains his Irish family's love of horse racing and dreamed of being a jockey as a child, eventually surrendering the idea in his early teens when it became apparent that his body would not be suited to such a pastime. The affable front rower is also a passionate fan of Liverpool Football Club and dreams of one day watching his beloved Reds in action live at Anfield.

Stephen, who cites Irish hooker Keith Wood as his rugby role-model, completed a Science degree at the University of Queensland in 2006 and has a view of studying post-graduate medicine following in the footsteps of father Tommy who is a GP on Brisbane's southside

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With respect to Ulster TH situation here is something I understand is being actively considered for next year and will be tried out.

We will try and convert one of the LH

No not Tom Court but Paddy McAllister.

On other (injury) news 1F is close, very close.
If he doesn't get a run out against Glasgow he definitely will against Treviso

Also I mentioned above Tommy is 4 - 6 weeks away - that means he will be back before the QF

Word of caution though Rugby players are incurable optimist (at least with regard to injuries)

geoff998rugby wrote:With respect to Ulster TH situation here is something I understand is being actively considered for next year and will be tried out.

We will try and convert one of the LH

No not Tom Court but Paddy McAllister.

On other (injury) news 1F is close, very close.
If he doesn't get a run out against Glasgow he definitely will against Treviso

Also I mentioned above Tommy is 4 - 6 weeks away - that means he will be back before the QF

Word of caution though Rugby players are incurable optimist (at least with regard to injuries)

Geoff it's fantastic to have you back mate. From the times when I have seen paddy this year he has been some size, and as Geoff says he is putting on serious muscle, that would then fit abit with his move to tight head, this could be a stroke of genius, heis a big, strong mobile prop who is still in the early stages of his professional career, this is the perfect time to convert him. Geoff do you know if Paddy was all for this move of position or was his arm twisted by mark and the doc?

I spoke to Paddy a few weeks back.

Whilst he did not allude to this specifically his attitude was he is still a young man with a great career ahead of him if he conducts himself in the right way and gets reasonable luck regarding injuries. A great willingness to learn.

My guess is he would have said 'sure I am up for giving it a go'

Hmm, have a lot of misgivings about that- but have you seen him lately? He is a beast. Lot of time in the gym. Physique part of it could be there, but technique- technique is the key. And it will be a longish road for him to build up that technique.

Shows how desperate we are at tighthead, that we would consider potentially messing around a guy who has the potential to be a top class destructive loosehead. But something has to give somewhere.

...interesting....ok whilst my first hand experience of the front row is a tad.. er..limited, I'd have thought that the rigours of TH scrummaging would be even more demanding physically than LH.... given Paddy's terrible injury record is this more a move based on hope than expectation?

rodders wrote:...interesting....ok whilst my first hand experience of the front row is a tad.. er..limited, I'd have thought that the rigours of TH scrummaging would be even more demanding physically than LH.... given Paddy's terrible injury record is this more a move based on hope than expectation?

In fairness his injurys haven't been linked to goings on in the scrum. I have played all three front row positions, in fact I have never played outside the front row but I have settled on tighthead. Yes it's the most demanding in a technical sense but it can be the most rewarding. I feel for this to be a good move for paddy we need someone of the calibre of Greg feek, roundtree to really take time and teach him a good technique, it would be a mistake to just stick him in at 3 and see how he goes. Big bad John is an exceptional scrummager but I feel we need someone who knows how to coach young green players in that area to have maximal effect. Even at the low level I play, technique is everything, you can be the biggest strongest giant on the part and not be able to scrummage for love nor money as we saw with Tony Buckley. I see your worries about loosing a potentially destructive loosehead, it is easy enough for him to revert back to loosehead if things don't work out. I feel this could be a very astute move and if it works out could set paddy's career on a very steep trajectory.

Cheers Dick, does this also indicate that Ulster feel Macklin and Fitzpatrick aren't going to make the cut as top level TH's?

Or are we just keeping the options open post Afoa?

geoff998rugby wrote:I spoke to Paddy a few weeks back.

Whilst he did not allude to this specifically his attitude was he is still a young man with a great career ahead of him if he conducts himself in the right way and gets reasonable luck regarding injuries. A great willingness to learn.

My guess is he would have said 'sure I am up for giving it a go'

It's a fantastic career move if he can make it,Healy and Kilcoyne are both very young and tough competition if he wants to play for Ireland but on the TH side there are a few promising youngsters but nobody who's proven themselves.

From what I have seen macklin hasn't impressed come scrum time, he plays like back row in the loose, which fits with him playing 8 for his school years, but he either goes down or backwards when up against any half decent opposition. And Deccie is far to injury prone for us put all our eggs in that basket despite being quite decent in the set piece. I mentioned this before but I am sure ulster could sign Bryan Young back from the Italian second devision for fairly little money. There was a time when he was decent enough, he has Ireland caps doesn't he? Anyway even if he wasn't great he would add strength in depth to the squad. I would suggest Jerry Cronin but I feel Jerry is young enough and decent enough to be getting first team rugby for English first devision side so I don't see him coming back to us to play for the ravens or sit in match day squads.

rodders wrote:...interesting....ok whilst my first hand experience of the front row is a tad.. er..limited, I'd have thought that the rigours of TH scrummaging would be even more demanding physically than LH.... given Paddy's terrible injury record is this more a move based on hope than expectation?

No first hand experience of course but I understand its more demanding physically, more technical- just more difficult. Hence why we often see ball carriers at loosehead more than tighthead. Tightheads can be various shapes and sizes but if you think about it they are often the bulkier, heavier and slower of the two props. i.e. Hayes vs Horan, Ross vs Healy, Cole vs Marler, Adam Jones vs Gethin Jenkins. Tightheads have to work harder and have a harder job so you're much more likely to get a scrummaging specialist at tighthead because his role is SO important. And both props are normally naturally slow, big, heavy and strong but the tighthead even more so as the anchor of the scrum. And all things being equal, the loosehead will be able to do more work around the field as his role is easier than the tightheads,

You get exceptions to that of course. Os du Randt at loosehead, Andrew Sheridan. Big guys who use their strength to mess up the tighthead. Tom Court would be more from that school of destructive scrummaging looseheads whilst Kidney seems to prefer the ball playing and mobile type, like Healy and Kilcoyne. But you don't generally get a lot of tightheads who are also highly mobile. Even John Afoa, who is a freak in how he can run like a back and scrum like a boss, has been a lot less evident in the loose since he moved to Ulster than he was in SH rugby because we have more scrums in the NH and put more emphasis on the tight work.

McAllister was always very good around the park. A very good carrying game, very quick and mobile, good offloading game. He also had very good loosehead scrummaging technique. If he is focusing on bulking up and working on his tighthead scrummaging technique we could see a lot of what is good about his game go by the wayside for something that might not work out long term.

If it works, it's a masterstroke. I remember seeing a scrummaging session Ulster uploaded to youtube with BJ Botha narrating for the layman a few years ago. Botha was our tighthead and scrum guru then; but it was interesting Paddy McAllister did at that juncture step in for a few scrums against the machine at tighthead. So it's something that has been at least considered in the past. Has he ever played tighthead in a live scrum? I don't know and lets not under-estimate the risk of asking him to start now if he hasn't. Its a high-risk move and illustrates the degree of desperation we have around tighthead in this country.

I think the feeling is Court, Black, Lutton will do us for LH especially with Paddy and Fitz being able to switch back in an emergency.

However when Afoa goes we have the injury prone Fitz, Macklin who has yet to convince.

I dont wish to imply a criticism of Mackln but my assessment of McAllister is
'a model professional, willing to learn and a sharp cookie'

Macklin, by contrast 'doing his best but finding it hard going and, dare I say it, not quite as much up top'

Macklin is giving it a go but McAllister has more about him both physically and mentally.

We do have a young 19 year old of whom we have high hopes but we wont know for a couple of years yet whether he is the read deal. We need to address the problem before then.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:...interesting....ok whilst my first hand experience of the front row is a tad.. er..limited, I'd have thought that the rigours of TH scrummaging would be even more demanding physically than LH.... given Paddy's terrible injury record is this more a move based on hope than expectation?

No first hand experience of course but I understand its more demanding physically, more technical- just more difficult. Hence why we often see ball carriers at loosehead more than tighthead. Tightheads can be various shapes and sizes but if you think about it they are often the bulkier, heavier and slower of the two props. i.e. Hayes vs Horan, Ross vs Healy, Cole vs Marler, Adam Jones vs Gethin Jenkins. Tightheads have to work harder and have a harder job so you're much more likely to get a scrummaging specialist at tighthead because his role is SO important. And both props are normally naturally slow, big, heavy and strong but the tighthead even more so as the anchor of the scrum.

You get exceptions to that of course. Os du Randt at loosehead, Andrew Sheridan. Big guys who use their strength to mess up the tighthead. Tom Court would be more from that school of destructive scrummaging looseheads whilst Kidney seems to prefer the ball playing and mobile type, like Healy and Kilcoyne. But you don't generally get a lot of tightheads who are also highly mobile. Even John Afoa, who is a freak in how he can run like a back and scrum like a boss, has been a lot less evident in the loose since he moved to Ulster than he was in SH rugby because we have more scrums in the NH and put more emphasis on the tight work.

McAllister was always very good around the park. A very good carrying game, very quick and mobile, good offloading game. He also had very good loosehead scrummaging technique. If he is focusing on bulking up and working on his tighthead scrummaging technique we could see a lot of what is good about his game go by the wayside for something that might not work out long term.

If it works, it's a masterstroke. I remember seeing a scrummaging session Ulster uploaded to youtube with BJ Botha narrating for the layman a few years ago. Botha was our tighthead and scrum guru then; but it was interesting Paddy McAllister did at that juncture step in for a few scrums against the machine at tighthead. So it's something that has been at least considered in the past. Has he ever played tighthead in a live scrum? I don't know and lets not under-estimate the risk of asking him to start now if he hasn't.

Looseheads like Sheridan, court and Chunk are a dying breed, there is less need for a brute force loosehead if you have a tighthead who the the size of a bulldozer, the way rugby has developed is that teams want as many back row type players on the field as possible, we want poaching hookers, we want big had hitting hard tackling backs, huge scrum halves who can defend and boss the ruck like a 7. That's just the way it is.

You say we will see some of the positive aspects of his game move to the wayside, but there are going to be elements of his game which he will develop. By playing tighthead he can focus more on the set piece, thats not just the scrum but also the line out, his lifting technique could improve. John Hayes was consider one of the greatest lineout lifters in world rugby, South Africa's Beast has been seen to single handedly lift jumpers in the lineout which adds to lineout options both attacking and defensively. Ulster is a set piece team, last year we had one of the best lineouts in Europe, this year we have one of the best scrums in Europe, I feel this is the right environment for paddy to develop and hone these skills along as we get the right mentor to guide him.

Great post BDV

Geoff, I understand Macklin is finding it difficult and there has been a lot of speculation about this outside the camp. But you wouldn't like it if I went online and said "I was talking to Geoffs boss and he said he's a good lad, but its not working out- actually we are thinking about moving someone from another department to cover for him!"

Its something we all do, myself included. We forget that rugby players are human beings with jobs like everyone else. But if you have inside info of any sort you need to be careful about how you put that information into the public domain and be respectful of the person it concerns.

Not a criticism mate. Just something I feel needs to be borne in mind.

Macklin is fully aware of what is going on as the information itself comes from within the club and is common knowledge to the squad players

Also these board would not exist without peoples opinion of players.

We do it all the time so saying Macklin is struggling is not untoward imv.
I am sure he recognises it himself. To be honest if next year doesn't see any progress he will probably sit down and assess his situation.

As an aside club members, including players (at Ulster at any rate) dont read boards like this - they think it is a waste of their time.

geoff998rugby wrote:As an aside club members, including players (at Ulster at any rate) dont read boards like this - they think it is a waste of their time.

Lets be honest guys- it's not just a waste of their time!

It's not waste of time for me, this is the perfect distraction during canine dermatology lectures!

It not for me either, as long as you guys are online I know a North west trending asteroid shower hasn't struck the east of the province....

Best pop into the Leinster thread to check if the Dublin guys are still in one piece....

geoff998rugby wrote:We have given up the residency thing.

They want the Provinces to move towards only 3 players in the squad who are not IQ in a given season. Whether or not they ultimately become IQ makes no difference to the ceiling.

As I said though not hard and fast - if it is seen as unavoidable (due to short term talent deficiency) , or to reward a player with many years loyal service, an extra player may be tolerated for a year.

That would make more sense. NIQ players are not needed as much as before. I remember when we had ROG and the only backup was Paddy Wallace who is a 12. With the exception of 3, 9 and 12 positions, I think theres no shortage of players in other positions.

Could Ireland ever be sustained entirely on Irish Qualified players like New Zealand?

Would we legally be allowed to do that.

Any limit is either legal or illegal
Either enforceable or not

Doesn't matter if is zero or ten - the same principal applies.

The bottom line is you cant make someone sign a contract with someone else and that, I suspect, is how Irish rugby gets away with it.

Remember, technically, these are short term contract between 2 entities, they are not employees

red_stag wrote:Could Ireland ever be sustained entirely on Irish Qualified players like New Zealand?

Would we legally be allowed to do that.

I don't see why not. We're on the way to doing it. Not only are the squads bigger than ever but they're also younger than ever. I think we might see more players moving abroad as well as players moving between provinces looking for gametime like Andrew Conway. Connacht should benefit from this in the coming seasons.

Legally I think its fine. The IRFU need Irish players and that won't change.

I don't see any legal problems, as efficviely players are head hunted, we don't adviterise a role, and gave extra credit to interviewees that are IQ.

I believe we can headhunt anyone we like, and as such headhunt IQ players.

Actually I think the reason Irish Rugby / Province can get away with it is much more simple.

They have no problem with hiring foreign people. The criteria is Irish Qualified.

You can be from any country, have any number of religions or whatever skin colour. Race, ethnicity and religion are not important.

It is just about qualification. Foreign people can play for Ireland either through ancestry or parents.

Out of interest, what happens if a player applies for Irish Citizenship? He may still have been capped by another country, but can he still be called NIQ? Can he take up an NIQ spot in a team if he is Irish on his passport etc??

I think we probably couldn't Stag, but it all depends on how the situation develops in France and England.

I.e. will they raise the salary cap in England? If so- by how much? What about France? Is the situation of heavy private investment there sustainable? If the bubble does pop, how much further will it go before it does? Are we going to see ever increasing salaries in France, and if so for how long?

Here is what I think, with no particular justification attached. l I do feel that we will see more Johnny Sextons moving to clubs for big money deals in the short-term. But they will be fewer and further between than their Welsh and Scottish equivalents. The majority of the Irish squad will be retained in Ireland. But if the quality of the squad and its standing in test rugby rises, so will the number of players overseas.

However, NIQ contracts will fulfill the role of bringing in limited numbers of marquee players to fill the gap left by big stars going overseas. This is a positive. Fewer NIQs of a higher quality gives us the ability to give more Irish players gametime than many low-quality NIQs.

I think saying we want to emulate New Zealand is good but also very dangerous. When you close a system to foreign players and foreign coaches, you also close it to new ideas. New Zealand have been Number 1 in the world for much longer than any other test nation. They have the best record of any team.

The reason for this is a culture of homegrown innovation and excellence, meaning they can afford to be parochial about their rugby. We don't have that in Ireland. In terms of all time success, we are the worst of the home nations in terms of the 5/6 nations and the Rugby World Cup. Obviously something hasn't been working all these years and we need to be willing to welcome new ideas into our system. NIQ players and coaches can do that.

We are very far from the day we can say NIQ players don't bring anything to the table, even further from the day we can say that about foreign coaches, and until that day comes we should make sure that every province has at least a few NIQ players or coaches of the requisite quality.

clivemcl wrote:Out of interest, what happens if a player applies for Irish Citizenship? He may still have been capped by another country, but can he still be called NIQ? Can he take up an NIQ spot in a team if he is Irish on his passport etc??

If my name is Paddy Murphy and I am born bred and buttered in Ireland for 50 generations, but my granny on one side was say, Italian.

I play a game for the Italian 7s side (do they have one?)at 19, get 5 mins on the pitch, and end up back in the Leinster academy.

I am NIQ and will always remain so unless they change the rules. Just like Isa Nacewa is Fijian (in Rugby) despite being born and bred in Auckland.

Nacewa and Howlett have both been here long enough to apply for Irish citizenship.

Same will go for Pienaer and Muller this summer

Doesn't alter the fact they are all NIQ as far a rugby is concerned.

Exactly I saw Dolphin RFC on Twitter saying that this bloke from Cork who has been capped by USA is looking for a club and should be given a chance at a province.

When they were told that he is about as Irish as Casey Laulala there followed a spiel about he holds a passport and how dare people say this.

But he can never ever play for Ireland.

He isn't "Rugby Irish"

Clive in answer to your question, I mentioned earlier Paul Warwick holds an Irish passport and Irish citzenship, he qualified through marriage and residency yet can never play for ireland as he played 7's for Australia, he did and would always count as a NIQ player for a province.

red_stag wrote:Could Ireland ever be sustained entirely on Irish Qualified players like New Zealand?

Would we legally be allowed to do that.

I don't see why there would be a legal problem. Irish qualified players can come from any part of the world.

Could Ireland ever be sustained on them though? Maybe the national team could, but the provincial game would drop in standard.

Personally I think that is an example of where it needs to change Stag. Yer man from Dolphin was wrong to say he should go to a province. The provinces have to play by these rules, because we have to abide by them in selection. Though he was right to say it's a shame a guy who is a handy player (maybe, maybe not).

Thing is- maybe players don't full realise the eligibility laws or full implications of them. But if he did, he should hold his hands up and admit he made his bed and now he has to lie in it. Very similar to the Isa Nacewa thing. He'd say he was a young man, and he didn't realise just what the consequences of that call-up were. Very sad story, really do feel for them but as adults they have a responsibility to live with the consequences of their decisions too.

I just don't think the one nation thing should be set in stone. Many people have lives that span two nations, that they feel equal affection for. Why not careers? I know this point has been raised before, specifically by Samoa and Fiji, but wouldn't it be wonderful if when his Scotland days are done an aging and slowing Tim Visser could go back to Holland and Captain the rugby team there? Or Rokocoko could line up for Fiji against Savea and Gear in All Black jerseys to top off a great career?

Geoff how does the ulster rugby management rate Mike McCombish, when Doyle comes back will he still be in the squads?