How much pride could this guy have?

by **Biltong** Mon 11 Feb 2013, 3:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

Antonie Claassen, son of Ex Springbok rugby Player Wynand Claassen has been called into the French 23 matchday squad for their clash with England on February 23.

He will be the ninth South African born player to represent France.

My question is this, your dad played for the Sprinboks, Your dad captained the Springboks, your dad played for the Bulls and Sharks, you decide to find your fortunes elsewhere for whatever reason.

Now you play for the French?

How much pride can you have with a rugby heritage like that?

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Feb 2013, 10:45 am

whocares wrote:just a few words on Antonie Claaseen and how he feels about playing his rugby in France. he arrived in brive 6 years ago and stayed there till last season. on Brive last home game last season (when they also got relegated) he was the only man who shed a few tears. the guy is an example in terms of commitment on and off the pitch, speaks fluent french and for him making the french team has always been a goal and a true achievement, something that some of our "native" players take a bit too much for granted.
hopefully he will bring some discipline and commitment in this team but most importantly he can play at 6 and 8 and has been followed by french coaches since Lievremont times (who was himself a good backrow).

by the way Biltong, he will be the 6th south african to represent France...

if you stay long enough in any given country and truly embrace the life there, that counts as much as your heritage...

The 9 I quoted comes from the article I read, either way it is immaterial. Yes, if you stay long enough in a country you can embrace life, and culture. Still doesn't change the question.

by Cyril Wed 13 Feb 2013, 10:47 am

whocares wrote:
if you stay long enough in any given country and truly embrace the life there, that counts as much as your heritage...

True. Being born somewhere to parents of whatever is a matter of luck anyway. Embracing a culture and being proud of that is just as important.

We all know plenty of people who aren't patriotic about their country of birth or heritage.

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Feb 2013, 10:54 am

Embracing the money comes first, embracing a culture is another matter alltogether.

But I get where some of you are coming from. Living in a country with a GDP of 2 Trillion compared to a country where the GDP is a tenth, a third or some insignificant number means that the one with the money buys what they want.

It is called capitalism and there is no need to deny or fight it, it simply is.

The reality is irrespective of whether the guy shas pride or not, he is playing for the 2 Trillion GDP country.

Pride has very little to do with it ultimately, and that is why I say the last line of defence where we still have nationalism is falling away.

Sadly it is the way of the world that things change, I myself don't like it, because sport for me has a lot more meaning than just following the team with the most money.

by fa0019 Wed 13 Feb 2013, 11:14 am

BB - I bet when Claassen's first went to FRA his contract was a bare bones one which only enabled him to pay his rent and food.

He had nothing more then a development contract with the Bulls when he left and had no experience to fall back on bar his junior record.

I don't think it was about the money... more about the opportunity to play as a professional.

by whocares Wed 13 Feb 2013, 11:25 am

Although I agree that capitalism and frequent air flights eventually helped to get this kind of situation, I dont believe money buys long term commitment to a given club or country. that's what I was trying to point out in my previous post.
I think that if you believe Antonie Claassen is a mercenary, you are in the wrong.

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Feb 2013, 12:50 pm

I don't think I suggested mercenary anywhere.

by whocares Wed 13 Feb 2013, 12:54 pm

ok fair point, guess I was exagerating.

by nganboy Thu 14 Feb 2013, 12:34 am

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:
whocares wrote:
if you stay long enough in any given country and truly embrace the life there, that counts as much as your heritage...

True. Being born somewhere to parents of whatever is a matter of luck anyway. Embracing a culture and being proud of that is just as important.

We all know plenty of people who aren't patriotic about their country of birth or heritage.

Both my parents and all my other ancestors were born in China. I and my brothers and sisters were born in NZ.
I lived in China for about 9 years as an adult, married and had two kids there. I am kiwi through and through and don't feel very Chinese when I am in China (probably because my Chinese (language) is still poor)
Both my kids feel more Kiwi than Chinese though both have both passports. I wouldn't mind who they play for though it might be easier to get into the Chinese team.

by blackcanelion Thu 14 Feb 2013, 2:53 am

I think the reality is no one thinks that players that arrive as children don't qualify. I think the issue is how to deal with players who move as professional players.

The issue for the longer term is how to deal with players who attracted by schools and academies on rugby scholorships. I don't feel comfortable with either instance because it's essentially professional recruitment for the national side. We see it in league (Karmicheal Hunt, SBW and Benji Marshall were all brought into the Australian school system on the back of league contracts). Lionel Messi was brought over to Spain as a young teenager from Argentina on the back of a football contract.

There may not be a solution, but it doesn't mean I have to be comfortable about it. If it's the odd player it's not an issue. But my fear is that it's a growing trend. I don't think that's good for rugby.

by maestegmafia Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:04 am

Well said BC.

Considering this year has seen the welsh set up include Kohn and Pretorious I am in many ways glad to see that those who have progressed through the established WRU system have kept the challenges of players qualified, but who had previously shown little interest in Wales, at bay.

by geoff998rugby Thu 14 Feb 2013, 10:53 am

I think the child thing is key and inspite of winding the English up I have no real problem with Manu or Hartley who were 14 and 16 respectively.

Once you reach adulthood it should be harder to qualify than it currently is - simple as that.

Birth location can be accident such as O'Gara (USA) and Heaslip (Israel).
I think we can all agree that in those circumstances it plays no part.

by nganboy Mon 18 Feb 2013, 2:42 am

May be we should have a state of origin series. So represent the country that you currently play in but then have a state/country of origin version (say where you first played first class rugby).

Wont happen of course too many games in a year but gee when you see the Aus League state of origin stuff - that's passion.

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