England Injury Update

by **LondonTiger** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 12:49

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/january/news-articles/230113_injury_update

Corbs having minor surgery today.
Burns has an MCL injury and not in contention for opening weekend.
Tuilagi making progress, but doubts over whether he will recover in time.
Billy V sitting out training this week with an ankle injury.
Tom Johnson out of 6Ns
Alex Goode has trained and will be released for Sarries LV game to get match practice.

Not on this update was Calum Clark who has had surgery and is out of 6Ns according to BBC.

by UlstermaninGlasgow Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 12:56

Doubt Corbisero will make it, Tuilagi has had this ankle injury for nearly 2 weeks now so it's probably 50:50, Vunipola more likely, Clark is out for 3 months with his shoulder...

by EnglishReign Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 13:14

Bloody hell Freddie. Great time to get injured, you plum.

by Effervescing Elephant Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 13:19

JJ to start if Tuilagi doesn't make it?

by yappysnap Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 13:35

Please not JJ, he needs to come off the bench or play in the Saxons.

Just really don't think he has the physicality or mindset for International rugby yet and needs to be eased in rather then dropped straight in to what will definitely be a physical game that we'll spend a lot of time defending and going rout 1 in.

Just for this match i'd maybe look at Twelvetrees at 12 and Barritt at 13 with JJ on the bench. Barritt stays leading the D, Twelvetrees can just focus on the attacking and positional play and JJ can come on as an impact sub at wing or centre.

by Jimpy Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 13:40

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Doubt Corbisero will make it, Tuilagi has had this ankle injury for nearly 2 weeks now so it's probably 50:50, Vunipola more likely, Clark is out for 3 months with his shoulder...

I think the Tigers management stated that Tuilagi was 70:30 fit before the Toulouse match, but not quite fit enough to be risked. He may be ready in time.

by Effervescing Elephant Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 13:44

yappysnap wrote:Please not JJ, he needs to come off the bench or play in the Saxons.

Just really don't think he has the physicality or mindset for International rugby yet and needs to be eased in rather then dropped straight in to what will definitely be a physical game that we'll spend a lot of time defending and going rout 1 in.

Just for this match i'd maybe look at Twelvetrees at 12 and Barritt at 13 with JJ on the bench. Barritt stays leading the D, Twelvetrees can just focus on the attacking and positional play and JJ can come on as an impact sub at wing or centre.

Fingers crossed we won't have to find out...

by **LondonTiger** Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 13:58

Jimpy wrote:
UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Doubt Corbisero will make it, Tuilagi has had this ankle injury for nearly 2 weeks now so it's probably 50:50, Vunipola more likely, Clark is out for 3 months with his shoulder...

I think the Tigers management stated that Tuilagi was 70:30 fit before the Toulouse match, but not quite fit enough to be risked. He may be ready in time.

The Stadium Announcer gave the line-ups 5 minutes before kick-off still including Manu. Just as he finished the tigers replacements he told us that Manu had been withdrawn. That does suggest it was a very late decision - though I cannot remember seeing him in the warm-ups.

by bluestonevedder Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 13:59

Jimpy wrote:
UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Doubt Corbisero will make it, Tuilagi has had this ankle injury for nearly 2 weeks now so it's probably 50:50, Vunipola more likely, Clark is out for 3 months with his shoulder...

I think the Tigers management stated that Tuilagi was 70:30 fit before the Toulouse match, but not quite fit enough to be risked. He may be ready in time.

That's exactly what I thought. he was in the side for the Toulouse game, but failed a late fitness test, so I assumed he was pretty much ready to go...

by Jimpy Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 14:02

Was Clark's injury divine intervention?

Yahoo

by bluestonevedder Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 14:02

yappysnap wrote:Please not JJ, he needs to come off the bench or play in the Saxons.

Just really don't think he has the physicality or mindset for International rugby yet and needs to be eased in rather then dropped straight in to what will definitely be a physical game that we'll spend a lot of time defending and going rout 1 in.

Just for this match i'd maybe look at Twelvetrees at 12 and Barritt at 13 with JJ on the bench. Barritt stays leading the D, Twelvetrees can just focus on the attacking and positional play and JJ can come on as an impact sub at wing or centre.

I thought JJ came through well in his starts against SA over the summer. Granted, he didn't have a chance to attack (bar his fine little run in the first test when he came off the bench), but he stood up to the physicality of the Springboj squad, which is a good achievement.

by hugehandoff Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 14:04

LT - first things first how is your daughter?

Rugby.....the big miss here for me is Corbs as I believe he is substantially better than Marler in the scrums. Plus Manu as finally the midfield clicked V All Blacks and we want to see if that will work again?

Tom Johnson is a fine player but we do have decent cover and not too concerned about any of the others impacting England too much.

by Guest Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 14:28

JJ needs to be given a real chance, and with Mike Catt there I'm sure he'll get one.

It would be a real shame if England abandon all hope and ambition and just shut down everytime Tuilagi isn't playing.

by damage_13 Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 15:20

I like the sound of Barritt and 36, JJ should be given more time vs Italy.

Corbs is a big loss, but his knee injury means he'll be lucky to make it the RWC in 2015.

who's behind Marler?

by Poorfour Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 15:49

hugehandoff wrote:LT - first things first how is your daughter?

Rugby.....the big miss here for me is Corbs as I believe he is substantially better than Marler in the scrums. Plus Manu as finally the midfield clicked V All Blacks and we want to see if that will work again?

Tom Johnson is a fine player but we do have decent cover and not too concerned about any of the others impacting England too much.

Corbs is better in the scrum, but not by that much. Don't think you can really judge Marler's scrummaging by the Australia game - he was let down by the Assistant Ref who missed the Aussie TH blatantly binding on the hem of the sleeve and pulling down at every scrum, making it impossible for Marler to get a bind. He's not as good at coping with that sort of stuff as Corbs - but on the other hand he did pretty well in SA over the summer.

Hope Manu is back, though - we could do with a settled midfield for a few games.

by Geordie Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 15:55

Well Marler is the obvious starter,...with Vunpiola next in line.

Personally id have Mullan in there like a shot.

Does anyone think Johnsons injury will impact the squad or team hugely. I dont think he's a key first choice player...more a squad player who is repalceable.

by beshocked Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 16:10

Personally this would be my 23

1.Marler
2.T.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchbury
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Brown
12.Barritt
13.JJ if Tuilagi is out
14.Ashton
15.Foden/Goode

16.Vunipola
17.Wilson
18.Hartley
19.Lawes
20.Haskell
21.Youngs
22.Flood
23.Twelvetrees

by majesticimperialman Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 16:13

I do hope that Manu will be fit enough to start in the 6ns. If not then i would Twelvetrees to take his place.

Real shame about Corbs though. Hope Burns pulls through if not for the Scotland game then at least for the rest of the 6ns.

I just hope that the injuries dont have too much damaging effect on the team for the 6ns.

by bluestonevedder Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 16:18

beshocked wrote:Personally this would be my 23

1.Marler
2.T.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchbury
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Brown
12.Barritt
13.JJ if Tuilagi is out
14.Ashton
15.Foden/Goode

16.Vunipola
17.Wilson
18.Hartley
19.Lawes
20.Haskell
21.Youngs
22.Flood
23.Twelvetrees

Nice strong bench that, and good starting 15.

by Effervescing Elephant Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 16:19

Compared to the injuries in the Wales squad, we're laughing. We do have quite a bit of strength in depth as well. All good signs for the future.

by B91212 Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 16:29

GeordieFalcon wrote:Personally id have Mullan in there like a shot.

Me too, think he should be in the squad in front of Vunipola for now. Good around the pitch and never seen him in distress in the scrum, can't understand why he doesn't get more recognition. Unfortunately I think he needs to move to a club in the HC to prove to some he is worth a place in the EPS.

Also agree regarding Johnson. Decent player but behind Robshaw, Wood, Haskall and Croft once match fit for a starting flanker spot.

by B91212 Wed 23 Jan 2013 - 16:34

beshocked wrote:Personally this would be my 23

1.Marler
2.T.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchbury
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Brown
12.Barritt
13.JJ if Tuilagi is out
14.Ashton
15.Foden/Goode

16.Vunipola
17.Wilson
18.Hartley
19.Lawes
20.Haskell
21.Youngs
22.Flood
23.Twelvetrees

Would start Hartley for T(ank) Youngs and B. Youngs for Care but otherwise just about agree with that 22. Goode to start if fit at 15 and would move Brown to FB with Foden on the wing if he isn't. If Goode and Brown start then would probably have Foden on bench for Twelvetrees.

by sirtidychris Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 11:54

JJ has to start if Tuilagi is injured, he is the only other proper 13 in the team...TBH tuilagi is running cold at the moment as well and I would like to see what JJ can do with a pack going forward and a bit of space...much quicker and a better step than tankuilagi...and tuilagi needs some genuine competition he walks into the club and country team, with the team strategy of both being give it to manu.

by beshocked Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 12:20

B91212 I would carry on with T.Youngs because of his relationship with Parling. As they both play for Leicester and played together in the Ais they have an understanding in regards to the lineout.

That's exactly it. Vunipola starts for Saracens, Mullan starts for Worcester. No contest.

Btw I've gone for a bench of Youngs,Flood and Billy because I would bring them on at the same time. They've all played together at Tigers and I think with 20-25 minutes to go they could cause a lot of damage.

Care and Youngs are much the same currently but I think Youngs is more dangerous after 60 minutes when the opposition is tired and losing confidence - e.g. vs Argentina,Ireland and NZ.

by HammerofThunor Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 12:25

beshocked wrote:B91212 I would carry on with T.Youngs because of his relationship with Parling. As they both play for Leicester and played together in the Ais they have an understanding in regards to the lineout.

That's exactly it. Vunipola starts for Saracens, Mullan starts for Worcester. No contest.

Btw I've gone for a bench of Youngs,Flood and Billy because I would bring them on at the same time. They've all played together at Tigers and I think with 20-25 minutes to go they could cause a lot of damage.

Care and Youngs are much the same currently but I think Youngs is more dangerous after 60 minutes when the opposition is tired and losing confidence - e.g. vs Argentina,Ireland and NZ.

So because Vunipola ditched Bristol for more money he should be ahead of a guy loyal to the club that developed him...crap logic that.

by beshocked Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 12:37

HammerofThunor wrote:
beshocked wrote:B91212 I would carry on with T.Youngs because of his relationship with Parling. As they both play for Leicester and played together in the Ais they have an understanding in regards to the lineout.

That's exactly it. Vunipola starts for Saracens, Mullan starts for Worcester. No contest.

Btw I've gone for a bench of Youngs,Flood and Billy because I would bring them on at the same time. They've all played together at Tigers and I think with 20-25 minutes to go they could cause a lot of damage.

Care and Youngs are much the same currently but I think Youngs is more dangerous after 60 minutes when the opposition is tired and losing confidence - e.g. vs Argentina,Ireland and NZ.

So because Vunipola ditched Bristol for more money he should be ahead of a guy loyal to the club that developed him...crap logic that.

See this is interpretation. You say he ditched Bristol, I say he moved to a bigger club to help his international prospects and improve as a player. You think staying at Bristol would have helped him in this regard?

He's getting lots of gametime for one of the top clubs in England in both the HC and AP. Players want to play in the big games.

Mullan has been loyal. Good for him but it's deservedly hurt his international prospects because he's not challenging himself against the best sides in Europe.

by Poorfour Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 12:57

sirtidychris wrote:JJ has to start if Tuilagi is injured, he is the only other proper 13 in the team...TBH tuilagi is running cold at the moment as well and I would like to see what JJ can do with a pack going forward and a bit of space...much quicker and a better step than tankuilagi...and tuilagi needs some genuine competition he walks into the club and country team, with the team strategy of both being give it to manu.

That's the likely answer, though I think I read something about JJ not having played at 13 for a couple of games and that being a concern for England management. Another option would be a Flood-Barritt-Farrell line up, which probably isn't what you'd want against a SH side, but would have quite a lot of merit against Scotland.

If Manu's injury doesn't clear up, SL would be able to bring up someone from the Saxons, where he's a bit spoilt for choice at 13 - Eastmond, Tompkins, Lowe. Lowe's due to start on Friday - I think for the first time at Saxons level in his preferred position - be interested to see how he goes.

by Cyril Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 13:05

bluestonevedder wrote:
beshocked wrote:Personally this would be my 23

1.Marler
2.T.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchbury
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Brown
12.Barritt
13.JJ if Tuilagi is out
14.Ashton
15.Foden/Goode

16.Vunipola
17.Wilson
18.Hartley
19.Lawes
20.Haskell
21.Youngs
22.Flood
23.Twelvetrees

Nice strong bench that, and good starting 15.

Yeah, that bench is really good. We've had situations in the last few years where the bench has been worryingly substandard or containing players that aren't likely to change a game. A really positive sign as it really is a 23-man game these days. Lawes, Haskell, Hartley, Youngs and Flood were all first choices (maybe not Haskell) until fairly recently. Nice depth.

Really hope Tuilagi is fit and firing. He's such an important player.

by sirtidychris Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 13:14

Its utter nonesense this, Mullan just plays for an unfashionable club, he starts and props week in and week out against Tigers, Northampton, Sarries, Cardiff, Perpignan, Scarlets, Harlequins etc. If he was playing at EXACTLY the same level for quins, tigers, sarries then he would be further up the pecking order.

Tom Wood is no better at saints than he was worcester but he was only awesome in the RFU's eyes once he had changed club. Even if you are an awesome player, if you are in a pants team you will fall out of favour its just ingrained that one player cant be good if your team isn't doing well.

England prefer to pick bench players for the top sides (vunipola, PDJ) than awesome starters for lower clubs, which leads to player drain and perpetuates the cycle of lower teams staying at the bottom. I wonder where leeds would be now if they had held onto Danny Care, Tom Plamer, Jordan Crane, Calum Clark, Luther Burrell, Tom biggs etc

by beshocked Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 14:06

sirtidychris wrote:Its utter nonesense this, Mullan just plays for an unfashionable club, he starts and props week in and week out against Tigers, Northampton, Sarries, Cardiff, Perpignan, Scarlets, Harlequins etc. If he was playing at EXACTLY the same level for quins, tigers, sarries then he would be further up the pecking order.

Tom Wood is no better at saints than he was worcester but he was only awesome in the RFU's eyes once he had changed club. Even if you are an awesome player, if you are in a pants team you will fall out of favour its just ingrained that one player cant be good if your team isn't doing well.

England prefer to pick bench players for the top sides (vunipola, PDJ) than awesome starters for lower clubs, which leads to player drain and perpetuates the cycle of lower teams staying at the bottom. I wonder where leeds would be now if they had held onto Danny Care, Tom Plamer, Jordan Crane, Calum Clark, Luther Burrell, Tom biggs etc

Unfashionable club? Is that why Ksevic is ahead of Fraser in the 7s pecking order? If you are talking about Ksevic you would be correct. He has taken on Perpignan. He has played every AP game for Worcester this season. Fraser has for his club too.

Well that's obviously false because Mullan didn't prop against Perpignan according to the ERC website. He did take on the might of Bizkaia Gernika RT and Femi-CZ Vea Rovigo though.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/players_statistics_archive.php?player=9539&includeref=dynamic

Plus he didn't take on Sarries.

Vunipola has been playing top class opposition in the HC. Mullan hasn't.

by sirtidychris Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 14:28

Mako had only had 14 premiership games, (with alot of those from the bench) before being elevated to his first cap, which he royally messed up ! Its hardly a track record of being exposed against the best oppostion.

My point is that Matthew Mullan has 100 caps for club at only 25ish and has experience of touring and starting midweek games with england in 2012. With his pace, workrate and skills he would have done a much better job than rabbit in headlights, yellow card Vunipola who should earn the england shirt by starting week in and out for his club and showing a level head for international rugby in the saxons.

If Mullan was playing for leicester he would be ahead of Mako.

by Bathman_in_London Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 14:32

I agree Chris.

I would imagine this is why Blaze, Kitchener, Wood, Benjamin etc have all left for 'bigger' clubs.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 14:38

Yes if Mullan were at tigers he would probably have represented England.

There are two reasons for this though:

1) Playing with and against the very best players in the HC makes it much easier to show your ability.

2) Like Kitchener and Wood from Wuss, Crane and Care from Leeds, Parling from Falcons he would probably have improved as a player. After all when the competition for your club place is higher, you have to perform better. (A point you make on a different post Chris)

by beshocked Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 14:45

sirtidychris wrote:Mako had only had 14 premiership games, (with alot of those from the bench) before being elevated to his first cap, which he royally messed up ! Its hardly a track record of being exposed against the best oppostion.

My point is that Matthew Mullan has 100 caps for club at only 25ish and has experience of touring and starting midweek games with england in 2012. With his pace, workrate and skills he would have done a much better job than rabbit in headlights, yellow card Vunipola who should earn the england shirt by starting week in and out for his club and showing a level head for international rugby in the saxons.

If Mullan was playing for leicester he would be ahead of Mako.

Mullan is also behind Corbisiero and Marler as well as Mako.

Mako is younger than Mullan so of course the older man should have more experience. We can talk about experience, if that's the case let's throw in Easter at 8. Borthwick in the 2nd row.

Mako is currently playing better in a bigger team. Mako does start week in week out for his club but he can't start games for his club if he's on international duty.

How many games did the likes of Tuilagi,Youngs etc have before their first cap? Some players have to wait their turn. Some don't. Plenty from Saracens for example have had to wait their turn.

Mullan would probably be warming the bench at Leicester like Cole had to do before supplanting Castro.

Mako is a rare example of a Saracens player being fast tracked.

by Chjw131 Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 16:49

I've no problem with the Mako situation. What is being overlooked is what Mako demonstrated at Sarries when he began in the Jeef, that is his carrying and offloading ability. He has natural ball playing skills which is rare for a prop, that's why he has been fast-tracked. Now he gets to work with Rowntree etc.. As does Marler who has come from a recently unfashionable club!

All this guff about Mullan being overlooked because he plays for Worcester is just false. Let's bear in mind a) the points about HEC competition which have already been made and b) perhaps the most salient of them, Mullan has already been capped! By England in 2010 v Italy I think by Jonno.

He then had a poor run of injuries and played moderately well on the SA tour. I don't think he needs to feel hard done by.

by AlastairW Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 17:31

Chjw131 wrote:I've no problem with the Mako situation. What is being overlooked is what Mako demonstrated at Sarries when he began in the Jeef, that is his carrying and offloading ability. He has natural ball playing skills which is rare for a prop, that's why he has been fast-tracked. Now he gets to work with Rowntree etc.. As does Marler who has come from a recently unfashionable club!

All this guff about Mullan being overlooked because he plays for Worcester is just false. Let's bear in mind a) the points about HEC competition which have already been made and b) perhaps the most salient of them, Mullan has already been capped! By England in 2010 v Italy I think by Jonno.

He then had a poor run of injuries and played moderately well on the SA tour. I don't think he needs to feel hard done by.

Lets not forget Kvesic has just been called up as well. I don't think whether a club is en vogue has anything to do with selection by Bomber & Co, he's far too much of an old school PE teacher to go in for any of that. It's all speculation though really.

by yappysnap Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 17:39

Simply Mullan is not in the HC, if he isn't playing in the best comps then it'll be a lot harder for him to get noticed and he'll have to either pull up trees or be in a position of weakness for England.

He isn't either of these things at the moment, and stop me if i'm wrong but wasn't he in the Saxons or the touring party last season and failed to impress as well.

by yappysnap Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 17:41

Oh and I still think JJ is only an impact sub at the moment. Just don't trust him starting at 13 for England; especially if he's going to be getting shipped poor ball by Farrel and Barrit the whole time and having to deal with a defence that's in his face and smashing him when he gets his hands on it.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 17:49

Care and Youngs are much the same currently but I think Youngs is more dangerous after 60 minutes when the opposition is tired and losing confidence - e.g. vs Argentina,Ireland and NZ

Benny played the full game against NZ and led them on a merry dance. His tactical kicking against Tolouse in appalling conditions was magnificent. He is in good form and can do more than the off the bench cameo. I think he has reached an understanding with Farrell and the England forwards that wasn't there during the last 6N.

I'd give Twelvetrees the 13 shirt if there are concerns over Joseph's form. He's a much better 13 than Barritt is and he has a long stride that disguises a sharp turn of pace.

by yappysnap Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 18:11

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Care and Youngs are much the same currently but I think Youngs is more dangerous after 60 minutes when the opposition is tired and losing confidence - e.g. vs Argentina,Ireland and NZ

Benny played the full game against NZ and led them on a merry dance. His tactical kicking against Tolouse in appalling conditions was magnificent. He is in good form and can do more than the off the bench cameo. I think he has reached an understanding with Farrell and the England forwards that wasn't there during the last 6N.

I'd give Twelvetrees the 13 shirt if there are concerns over Joseph's form. He's a much better 13 than Barritt is and he has a long stride that disguises a sharp turn of pace.

He's also a heads up player who likes to take a chance and can usually kick well for the wings to chase. Will this happen though? Probably not, it'll be Barritt and Manu or else Flood, Barritt, Farrel steam

by sirtidychris Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 18:59

yappysnap wrote:Simply Mullan is not in the HC, if he isn't playing in the best comps then it'll be a lot harder for him to get noticed and he'll have to either pull up trees or be in a position of weakness for England.

Yes this is the point its harder to be noticed and get into the england set up if your in a lower club unless there is a position of weakness or injury crisis only then you get a chance. Mullan got capped when Sheridan was injured and Tim payne was getting his head shoved up his **se in every scrum. Kvesic is being given a go because we have no natural fetchers and Clark is now injured, if Fraser nails down a starting shirt for Sarries he likely end up surpassing Kvesic (unless Kvesic moves to leicester etc). Tom johnson was given a shot because all our blindside flankers were falling apart. Most players are there on merit after working there way up and biding there time but there are 11 sarries players in both squads are they all better than other guys that didn't get in?..Do Mouritz Botha and David Strettle deserve to be in the 1st team EPS ?, should Kruis have been promoted to a starting saxons shirt over say Dave Attwood. Would Owen Farrell and Mako Vunipola have enjoyed a england fast track if Farrell Sr had stayed at Saracens and Richard Cockerill took the england role instead.

by DaveM Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 21:49

It's hardly surprising the coaches are tending to pick players from the top side sin the AP. I remember a few years back when many of the players were from bottom half AP sides and England were predictably rubbish.

Mullan has struggled for fitness and form over the last few years. Kvesic is being 'given a go' because the England player pathway process identified him as an outstanding propect from a young age and he is now progressing through the system as is supposed to happen.

Botha is a decent player who plays regularly for one of the best sides in the country. Attwood (I wonder if I'm forgetting some outstanding performances because he seems to me to have a much bigger fan club than he deserves) is living off his reputation and is in and out of a mediocre AP side. Strettle has just been playing well recently. Whatever his weakensses I don't see how anyone can doubt why the England coaches like Farrell - mental toughness is more important than raw ability in elite sport. On the other hand Vunipola is a huge talent playing for his club at the highest club level. I think Lancaster is as good a selector as we are ever likely to get.

JJ has been playing FB recently, and I think is in reasonable form. I'd expect him to be 13 if Tuilagi isn't fit.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 22:44

He's also a heads up player who likes to take a chance and can usually kick well for the wings to chase. Will this happen though? Probably not, it'll be Barritt and Manu or else Flood, Barritt, Farrel

Barritt has earned the 12 shirt. I'd keep him there. Farrell and Flood are fighting over the 10 shirt. In no scenario should any of those players start at 13.

by DaveM Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 23:08

Barritt will keep the shirt for the Scotland game. I wouldn't be surprised if Twelvetrees were to be established as first choice 12 by the end of the 6 Nations though. He's got far more potential than Barritt.

by sirtidychris Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 23:14

I think its time for me to move on otherwise ill be arguing in circles for the next few days boxing

!!

Whats Mr Joel Tompkins like as a 13 I haven't caught one of his games yet..would he be a viable option if jj doesn't make the grade in manus absence? being at sarries i assume he has a good defense but does he offer much of an attacking threat? Stylistically are we talking, tindall, fofana or smith?

by ChequeredJersey Thu 24 Jan 2013 - 23:32

He's a good attacker, not really like any of those 3 though!

by Geordie Fri 25 Jan 2013 - 8:37

should Kruis have been promoted to a starting saxons shirt over say Dave Attwood

I would yes...because Kruis has had some crackin games recently...the obvious one being the MOM v Munster.

I cant recall the last game Attwood came to serious prominance. Im afraid im beginning to think that ship has sailed...

by formerly known as Sam Fri 25 Jan 2013 - 8:52

Whats Mr Joel Tompkins like as a 13 I haven't caught one of his games yet.

Good defensively but not a defensive player. He's an RL convert so quick, strong, direct with a decent offload. A good all round 13 with potential for more.

by beshocked Fri 25 Jan 2013 - 9:51

sirtidychris wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Simply Mullan is not in the HC, if he isn't playing in the best comps then it'll be a lot harder for him to get noticed and he'll have to either pull up trees or be in a position of weakness for England.

Yes this is the point its harder to be noticed and get into the england set up if your in a lower club unless there is a position of weakness or injury crisis only then you get a chance. Mullan got capped when Sheridan was injured and Tim payne was getting his head shoved up his **se in every scrum. Kvesic is being given a go because we have no natural fetchers and Clark is now injured, if Fraser nails down a starting shirt for Sarries he likely end up surpassing Kvesic (unless Kvesic moves to leicester etc). Tom johnson was given a shot because all our blindside flankers were falling apart. Most players are there on merit after working there way up and biding there time but there are 11 sarries players in both squads are they all better than other guys that didn't get in?..Do Mouritz Botha and David Strettle deserve to be in the 1st team EPS ?, should Kruis have been promoted to a starting saxons shirt over say Dave Attwood. Would Owen Farrell and Mako Vunipola have enjoyed a england fast track if Farrell Sr had stayed at Saracens and Richard Cockerill took the england role instead.

Fraser has nailed down the Saracens 7 shirt as his own. He's played in every AP game this season and I think every HC game. I think he's had the most amount of gametime at the club. I don't begrudge Ksevic being ahead of him though. Ksevic has also played a lot of rugby. Fraser's form has meant Saull hasn't had a look in albeit Saull has had injuries.

Bear in mind with Farrell Jr he won the AP at fly half - that 2010/11 season he was the starting fly half. He has not played there as much because one of the best club fly halves is giving him tough competition! It's hardly fast tracking - decent fly halves seem to be a scarce commodity in international rugby currently.

People will say he wasn't first choice for his club when picked for England. Neither was Dan Cole. Certain clubs are far stronger than others in different positions. E.g. I bet Saints would love to swap Lamb or Myler for either Hodgson or Farrell Jr. Equally I am sure they would love Flood or Ford from Leicester.

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 25 Jan 2013 - 9:58

Just remember fellas you have 40'000 other players to choose from Whistle

I guess Johnson's comments triggered something of a sense of humour failure from Farrel snr.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/english-suffer-from-humour-bypass-over-scott-johnson-chat-1-2758445

By DAVID FERGUSON AND ALEX LOWE
Published on Friday 25 January 2013 03:20

On HIS first day facing the English media as Scotland coach, Scott Johnson managed to drive along a humour bypass south of the border and provoke the ire of Andy Farrell.

At Wednesday’s RBS Six Nations launch in London, Johnson was asked by an English journalist how he felt about England having a handful of players out injured, and resorted to his trademark humour in pleading that the questioner was making him very sad worrying about England’s problems.

“That just leaves you with another 40,000 players to pick from, it’s a sad story,” he said to great laughter in the room.

It was clear that he had his tongue firmly inserted in his cheek but, with English newspapers yesterday claiming that Johnson had been “mocking” England’s injury woes, assistant coach Farrell seemed to lose his sense of humour too.

“It is funny, isn’t it? Very funny. Hilarious,” he said dryly, before adding sternly: “We are saying plenty of things behind closed doors.”

Farrell made his debut for England against Scotland at Twickenham in 2007, after switching late from Rugby League but his son Owen made his debut in the fixture last season and is likely to feature again at Twickenham next weekend. Farrell senior is excited by the history around the game and believes there is little between the sides in 2013.

He said: “The last four games have been won by an average of four points. That is the drop of a ball. It is because of the rivalry, the history, it’s a big game for all concerned. Talking to a few of the Scots, they feel they let  Andy Robinson down and so they have a point to prove to themselves.

“We have to get good at being consistent and not worrying about Scotland.

“Obviously, they come into it but we feel we have got a few things going, we know what starts to make us tick.

“We have been very hard to beat. The scorelines have always been close when we have lost but consistently winning with a top performance is what we are after.

“We will be going all out to do that against Scotland. We still have to find that consistency and top-level performance.”

Full-back rivals Alex Goode and Ben Foden have been released to play for Saracens and Northampton respectively this weekend, to gain match-time after recent injury lay-offs but both are in the frame to play in the Calcutta Cup.

“There remains doubt over centre Manu Tuilagi. He is close to returning from the ankle injury which ruled him out of Leicester’s Heineken Cup win against Toulouse last weekend and the England management are prepared to give the Samoan-born star until Tuesday to prove his fitness.

Tuilagi, who missed last year’s Calcutta Cup match through injury, was a key figure in England’s victory over New Zealand, scoring one try and creating two others in England’s record 38-21 triumph on December 1.

“He has done unbelievably well for us,” said Farrell.

“The physios are definitely not writing him off. They think he has a fighting chance but it would be unfair to leave  it until the end of next week.”

England spent yesterday running through different midfield combinations, with Billy Twelvetrees and Jonathan Joseph  potential alternatives to Tuilagi.

Away from the training field, head coach Stuart Lancaster, the former Scotland under-19 cap, continued with the build-up that worked well last year by inviting leading coaches from other disciplines to speak to his squad. This week it was the turn of Jessica Ennis’ athletics coach Toni Minichiello and Ashes-winning cricket captain Andrew Strauss, who both addressed the squad on dealing with expectation and emotion in order to deliver a top-class performance.

“It was really interesting,”  Farrell said. “They have both been brilliant at dealing with expectation. We want to be world class going up to the World Cup, we want to be dealing with expectations. You don’t want to hide away from it.

“The best thing about the New Zealand win was having no fear and still performing. That tells me these boys can deal with all sorts of predicaments.”

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