Better to be long than short - Is it??

This has come from 'Problems with Yardage' article where topic of amateurs and their yardages is benig discussed.
Someone mentioned that the pro at their place says amateurs generally take one club less than they should if they are to avoid the trouble which is usually at the front of the green.

Is this true?
It is said a lot but is not the case in my experience. Most courses i play you get into much more trouble long than short.

Long is at best in the rough stuff/trees
Short is very often on the fairway! Bunkered at worst

Water is as regularly long and to the side as it is short

Just thinking about my club -

Shorts leaves you.........

12 times on the fairway, 5 times in a bunker and once in the rough

Whereas long leaves you..........

Once in a bunker, 4 times in the rough stuff (3 of them on severe upslopes), 8 times in the trees, 3 times in the water and twice out of bounds

Just wondering how others view the 'trouble being short of the green' mantra?

on my course, Launceston, cornwall. it would be better to be long than short on 7/18

on looe, cornwall, my other course, it would be better to be long on 2/18

funny that!

So Tarka, at your 2 clubs being short of the green is quite considerably more beneficial than being long?

Why be short, there is probably 2-3 clubs difference on average between the from and back of the green. yes long may be dangerous but so many players seem to pick a club that they need to hit full tilt just to reach the front.

Why not club up, swing 80% and aim for the middle of the green?

Mac, no argument with swinging at 80% and aiming for the middle

However, my irons (say PW to 6 iron) tend to increase distance by approx 15 yards per club. I don't think any of the greens at my place are 45 yards long.
The difference between front and back is probably a club or a club at a half on most holes.

That was kinda the point of the question.
If i hit my 8 iron 140 yards and my 9 iron 125 yards, and the centre of the green is 130 yards - am i better hitting 8 or 9?

Obviously the answer is depends on the location of the trouble but most of the time for me this is long, so i'd hit 9 iron. This seems to go against most of the advice so am interested in others' thoughts

Mac - you play most of your golf in Scotland don't you?

Surely there, very little trouble is in front of the green, hence the use of the bunt and run or texas wedge even from as far as 100 yards out.

At my course - Thorpe Wood - there is a difference between trouble in front of the greens in normal play, and trouble in front of the pins in competitions. But in general there would be trouble in front on only 3/18, now reduced to 2/18 unfortunately.

Short and straight is normally not an issue unless there is something obvious, eg water/bunker... if short and a bit wide that is the problem many hazards are front/mid left and right compared to back left and right. Air mailing the green will normally cause problems but in my experience it better missing the green right or left in the back half than the front half of the green.

My course for example has about 35 greenside bunkers that could be described as front or front/middle or middle and about 3 middle/back and none back...

So in that sense its better to miss the green the right or left in the back portion than the front portion.

I'd agree however that not reaching the green complex at all is probably less terminal on avaerge than airmailing everything.

I think thats what pros mean by missing in the right place, same with holes with all the danger on one side of the green or a pin tucked on a specific side.

Most greens are 2 clubs from front back anyway so 1 extra club shouldn't send you OOB or similar if you normally come up short.

oldshanker, yes in most cases the links courses do allow a run up approach to the green. But even using this tactic I would tend to take more than enough club. What ever shot you are hitting to a green the chance of a mis hit at our level is substantial. Even jack claimed he only hit one perfect shot a round or something like that.

I find it to be the case that most people seem to come up short when missing a green. It stands to reason that most people should therefore be taking more club. As well as taking more club, swinging within yourself improves the probability of a good strike.

There is after all little trouble in the middle of the green. Yes you have to get over the fact you are hitting more club than others but does the better score not negate this?

MustPuttBetter wrote:Mac, no argument with swinging at 80% and aiming for the middle

However, my irons (say PW to 6 iron) tend to increase distance by approx 15 yards per club. I don't think any of the greens at my place are 45 yards long.
The difference between front and back is probably a club or a club at a half on most holes.

That was kinda the point of the question.
If i hit my 8 iron 140 yards and my 9 iron 125 yards, and the centre of the green is 130 yards - am i better hitting 8 or 9?

Obviously the answer is depends on the location of the trouble but most of the time for me this is long, so i'd hit 9 iron. This seems to go against most of the advice so am interested in others' thoughts

MPB,

Thats a daft scenario 1 club gets you 5 yards away the other 10! Its a no brainer. If you were bang between clubs and the pin was smack in the middle of the green, which was of average size (15-20 yeards long) Both would probabaly be on the green if hit straight and properly with either club. Now.... if you a mid handicapper, there is a chance you would not get a perfect strike a decent amount of the time, so if you hit one club more and dont get a perfect strike taking 1 club length off your shot(for example) you've hit your 8i a 9i distance and happy days you're still on the green. If you do the same with a 9i you've missed the green. As i said if you pure both you still ok...therefore i agree with the pros.

I think there is a large mental block with a lot of us amatuer golfers when it comes to hitting the ball past the flag. That is including putting and chipping. I believe that most amatuers are more comfortable with just keeping the course and the hole in front of them. It's a confidence thing when you know you are clubbing for perhaps beyond the hole.

Hands up who all gets that wave of panic when they see the ball shoot off the putter head destined for beyond the hole? Yet that same feeling isnt there when we come up the same distance short of the hole. Surely I'm not alone here?

I am certainly more likely to be short than over the back.

In general I know about how far I hit each iron, although not by yardage, but by looking at the hole, taking into account the lie, wind etc. and will then look at hitting strong or not. However, as you say Mac, a mis-hit or slight mis-hit is more likely than a 100% flushed shot, hence they will normally come up short. I even take 1-2 clubs longer now, because I do not hit the ball as hard and with as full a swing as I used to.

So I am happy that the course I generally play has little trouble in front. But I can really come unstuck if playing a course like LJ's old course where nearly every hole has to be flown all the way.

Had to put a hyphen in mis-hit

MustPuttBetter wrote:Mac, no argument with swinging at 80% and aiming for the middle

However, my irons (say PW to 6 iron) tend to increase distance by approx 15 yards per club. I don't think any of the greens at my place are 45 yards long.
The difference between front and back is probably a club or a club at a half on most holes.

That was kinda the point of the question.
If i hit my 8 iron 140 yards and my 9 iron 125 yards, and the centre of the green is 130 yards - am i better hitting 8 or 9?

Obviously the answer is depends on the location of the trouble but most of the time for me this is long, so i'd hit 9 iron. This seems to go against most of the advice so am interested in others' thoughts

Soft 8. Come on, would that have been tricky for you to work out.

Lairdy wrote:I think there is a large mental block with a lot of us amatuer golfers when it comes to hitting the ball past the flag. That is including putting and chipping. I believe that most amatuers are more comfortable with just keeping the course and the hole in front of them. It's a confidence thing when you know you are clubbing for perhaps beyond the hole.

Hands up who all gets that wave of panic when they see the ball shoot off the putter head destined for beyond the hole? Yet that same feeling isnt there when we come up the same distance short of the hole. Surely I'm not alone here?

Great point.

Ha ha, thanks Rossa
It's hard work keeping up with old 606 and new 606!

I'm not so sure Mac

The less than 100% shot is a tricky one i think. Often the easier you go the further the ball flies!
For me anyway

mpb - old 606 is off my tabbed browsing now...!

Rossa - end of May it is?

No sorry, for me i meant, for the purpose of this tread, ive abondoned old 606...for now

Ah, got ya

It's not quite the same without most of the old regulars anyway!

If I was a low handicapper it wouldn't be a problem, but as mid handicapper I would always go with 1 extra club!! If I was guaranteed to hit the ball sweet every time, no problem, but the ones i do catch sweet will only take me 5 yards or so further onto the green, which may well be still on the green. So playing the averages works for me and gets me more GIR. Remember that the worst case scenario is always the 'thinned' iron that takes you well through and into serious cabbage.

One extra club gets me more GIR, even though some leave me a longer putt. But rather that than being short even missing traps etc, you can still do a Mahon and scuff one that only just makes it.

All depends on the course doesn't it! My place has trouble short and long on most holes which very from a she load of trees, to water and even OOB. So the only place to miss is somewhere on the green. Yes a bunker is a better place to be than in the fodder at the back. But I've played many courses where a shot long is such an easy up and down its ridiculous.

The honest answer is to make sure you have either enough club to make your miss long but on the putting surface or short enough to not be in a hazard so if you add these 2 components together you get simply have better course management to take any trouble long or short out of the equation

On my course, Cragie Hill, it is almost always better to be short than long, with only the 1 exception.

If you go long on "The Hill", you generally won't be able to see where you'r ball has landed. Also alot of greens have steep bankings to the side and back of them.

On one hole they actually added a green side bunker to make the hole easier.

Mav

I am glad someone mentioned course management as it would be silly to to think of approach shots in terms of the danger only being short or long. You have to look at the danger, where the flag is, wind conditions, stance etc.

Wherever the danger is however you want to ensure that the club you hit goes the distance you intend the shot to be. For this reason club up and allow for inconsistency of strike and the benefits of swinging at about 80%.

No problem Mac, I just feel the issue with these type of threads is that you can make so many excuses for all areas when simply there can be trouble anywhere and the only way to avoid it is to manage your game better, I honestly feel if I could play a round with the average 12-15 handicap player and I could tell them exactly what shots and club to take tee to green (manage their game for them) I could save them 3shots per round. So many times do we see people opt for the shorter iron and try to leather it then wonder why they came up short blaming club or wind etc, when they haven't taken into account all the factors into it before playing. Always club up swing easy after all most if not all greens are longer than 15yards long so an extra club at worst would hit the back fringe!

The point of the thread wasn't to make excuses.
Or even really to find out if people think hit hitting short or long is better. Clearly the answer is depends where the trouble is.

What i was interested in was to see at everyone's clubs whether most of the trouble is long or short.
Most things you read will have you believe short but i don't think that's the case

I've just done a quick total-up for my course and decided 7 holes are better to be long, 7 short and the other 4 makes no difference

So pretty even split!

I was going to add up how many holes have trouble long and short on the course I play most regularly but too much depends on the pin position. Regarding actual hazards there are none long. But that is not all that matters when missing a green.

If I was to add up holes on my course with trouble both long and short it would 17 out of 18 where going anywhere but on the green is penal! Trouble long, short and both sides, only 1 hole can you get away with being long or short and that's the 1st hole! Yet still has OOB right and bunkers left! So the only place to miss generally is on the green!

Maverick wrote:If I was to add up holes on my course with trouble both long and short it would 17 out of 18 where going anywhere but on the green is penal! Trouble long, short and both sides, only 1 hole can you get away with being long or short and that's the 1st hole! Yet still has OOB right and bunkers left! So the only place to miss generally is on the green!

Bloody hell mav, does it have 17 island greens. Either that or you play pine valley?

My course is pretty hilly, so not only have you got to worry about 'too long or too short' but also leaving it in the right place on the drives (i.e. it runs like a b*stard in these dry conditions and you can easily be playing your second shot from half way down a hill in the gorse if you even hit the wrong side of the fairway). I think on a lot (but not all) of par 3s then it is better to be long than short, because most designers place all their hazards at the front of the green. The only time being short would be an advantage is if you have water at the back, or a steep drop-off or if the green slopes severely and you need to keep it below the hole.

Mac, you must be pretty damn good if, in deciding whether the safe miss is long or short, you take into account pin position

I generally aim for the centre of the green and am happy to be there!

Surely it's not hard to tell if the trouble is long or short regardless of where the pin is

Interesting that some say short and some say long. Looks like there is no real pattern/tendancy to it

our 2 courses vary immensely, having just thought my way round them and it may have something to do with why one is not just considered, but genuinely plays, several shots more over par.

whereas on balcomie, short is clearly less trouble, craighead has at least 6 holes where there is little or no margin for error - hit the green or you're in trouble. it also has several more holes where long is in fact the bail out option.

i'll think about this next time i'm out

McLaren wrote:

Maverick wrote:If I was to add up holes on my course with trouble both long and short it would 17 out of 18 where going anywhere but on the green is penal! Trouble long, short and both sides, only 1 hole can you get away with being long or short and that's the 1st hole! Yet still has OOB right and bunkers left! So the only place to miss generally is on the green!

Bloody hell mav, does it have 17 island greens. Either that or you play pine valley?

Neither Mac, just all greens are very well guarded by either hazards, e.g bunkers, water, OOB couple have lateral water hazards that go round one side of the course, some others railway line and the rest lots of trees so as mentioned before the only safe miss is on the short stuff good tough but fair test