George Ford signs for Bath?

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Read in the mail that George Ford has signed for bath for next season? This sounds like a done deal which would bring him to the club where his dad coaches. Not sure what to think about this one, bath already have an excellent young fly half in tom heathcote however Stephen Donald has been a waste of money and will need replacing. There's no doubt George has buckets of talent but also has a lot of developing to do and bath are notoriously poor at bringing players along. If it works out George will be starting a lot more games and bath will have a quality English flyhalf, if it doesn't bath will have a big dent in the salary cap on an overhyped, undersized young flyhalf.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly I've been saying there is plenty of time for Ford but compared to Burns he's not been getting the game time (certainly not the crunch ones like Toulouse and Ospreys).

why are we comparing him with Burns. Yes Burns is getting game time - now. He is though 3 seasons ahead of Ford - and in 2009/10 Burns made 6 starts for Glaws in the GP. They all came at the end of the season at FB after Olly Morgan was injured. It was only after Nicky robinson left that he was given the chance to play 10.

Ford is probably better playing at leicester for at least another season - but I would understand if he left. As it is he is getting a lot of gametime and experience, has won MotM in an AP semi final and played well in the final. His goal kicking is still too hit and miss though.

so long as Farrell and Ford get a decent amount of game time they will both be able to learn from the older player at their club. Leaving is not a guaranteed cure.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly I've been saying there is plenty of time for Ford but compared to Burns he's not been getting the game time (certainly not the crunch ones like Toulouse and Ospreys).

He's 2 years younger Beshocked, how can you compare the two? If in 2 years time Ford is still not starting the big games they'll be something to compare.

Ford is the 2nd best FH at Tigers, he's not going to start the big games if Flood is fit. If Gloucester had Dan Carter I don't imagine Burns would be starting every game either.

Thing is its actually really exceptional for players to break through into the national team at age 20/21. But because it does happen and its so high profile when it does and it comes off people think thats the be all and end all.

beshocked wrote:20.

Farrell Jr had also played a lot more top flight rugby than Ford when selected for England.

In total Ford has started 12 +6 in the AP, 2+1 in the HC - 21 appearances in total.


Farrell has 40+3 AP, 14+1 HC plus 12 England caps. 70 appearances in total

Total appearances don't really mean much at this point, the facts are that the two weren't too disimilar age wise when first selected, which you stated as your basis for discussion. Farrell may have played more top flight rugby by the age of 19 but I dispute it was or even could have been much more though.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:20.

Farrell Jr had also played a lot more top flight rugby than Ford when selected for England.

In total Ford has started 12 +6 in the AP, 2+1 in the HC - 21 appearances in total.


Farrell has 40+3 AP, 14+1 HC plus 12 England caps. 70 appearances in total

Total appearances don't really mean much at this point, the facts are that the two weren't too disimilar age wise when first selected, which you stated as your basis for discussion. Farrell may have played more top flight rugby by the age of 19 but I dispute it was or even could have been much more though.

Also Farrell hasn't just played at 10 which is his preferred position. So although on paper he has more game time it's not been in the 10 slot.

I'd actually have Flood first choice then Burns at the moment, then Farrell or Ford.

Freddie Burns (born May 1990)

2009/10 - 19 at the start of season. Made his first starts for Glaws this season. 5 starts in LV Cup (mainly at 10), 6 starts in GP and 1 in European Shield (mainly 15)

2010/11 - 14 starts in toatal at 10 & 15 (AP 9, ECC 3, LV 2)

2011/12 - With departure of nicky Robinson became first choice 10 for Glaws aged 21. 19 starts, 17 in AP and 2 in LV.

2012/13 - Called up to EPS.




Owen Farell (born Sept 1991)

2010/11 - Made his first start for Sarries in LV cup a couple of weeks after his 19th birthday. Following injury to incumbents was first choice 10 in second half of season and ended the season by kicking Sarries to the AP title. 22 starts across all tournaments at 10 and centre.

2011/12 - Arrival of Hodgson saw him move more to centre in important matches. Made england debut in the centre finishing the 6Ns at 10. Nominated for IRB PotY. 16 starts for Sarries and 5 for England

2012/13 - Lost england place on SA tour, but started win over NZ after injury to Flood. Has tended to play 13 in the big matches so far.



George Ford (born March 1993)

2010/11 Physically a later developer than Farrell he is really only a 10, Ford made his first start for Tigers in LV cup match aged 17. Made 2 starts for tigers (~and remember played 10 for England u20s with Farrell at 12)

2011/12 - 11 starts for Tigers at 10. 4 LV, 5 AP and both AP play-off matches.

2012/13 - 19 at the start of the season, same age as Burns and Farrell when they first appeared for Glaws/Sarries. 8 starts so far (5 AP, 2HC, 1 LV). Clearly second choice behind Flood.




At 22, 21 qand 19 respectively, all 3 are developing just fine where they are. Burns was helped by Robinson leaving meaning he got thrust into the limelight. remember though this was when he was 21. Farrell had a blinding first season helped by physically maturing early, is a defensive beast and composed. Ford is very much a work in progress.


What is better for Ford's development? I am not sure seeing him starting every week at a 2lesser" club is what he needs. Yes he needs game time, but his is still maturing physically and also needs rest time.

Oh and gotta love Wikipedia (not the source of my info btw) which states:

In January 2013 Bath confirmed that George has signed for them ahead of the 2013/14 season.

Nathan he still has a lot more game time at 10 than Ford. He's also played the bigger sides like Munster,Saints,Quins and Leicester at fly half this season.

These young guys need the challenge.

Plus Farrell is benched a lot less than Ford.

Ford in contrast has not been given any of the big games when Flood is available. His biggest game this season was Gloucester away which he wouldn't have had if Flood was available.

Farrell so far has played 2 and a half seasons for Saracens in the AP and HC - his gametime has been plenty.

You might say oh well not many of them were with him at fly half but he's still gaining experience and gametime.

I have already acknowledged that Ford is only 19 but I want to see him challenging Flood. If Cockerill was confident in Ford he would pick him.

Saracens pick Farrell because they want him on the pitch. They have that confidence in him.

Wilkinson is better than all of them. These guys will probably only be as good as Andy Goode in his prime.

Whats wrong with that!

How many winners medals has Goode got?

But how many of those big games has Farrell had at 10?

And how many would he have had when in poor form and 19?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:But how many of those big games has Farrell had at 10?

And how many would he have had when in poor form and 19?

Do you mean this season or in his career so far?

When Farrell was 19 he was taking on the likes of Racing Metro,Clermont and Leinster.

He was 19 when winning the AP title, kicking 7 out of 7 in the final.

In the 2010-11 AP season Farrell was 19 and played most games at 10.

VictorU3 wrote:Whats wrong with that!

How many winners medals has Goode got?

Tongue in cheek VU. I think Goode is a very under rated player. No idea how many medals he has!

red_stag wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:Whats wrong with that!

How many winners medals has Goode got?

Tongue in cheek VU. I think Goode is a very under rated player. No idea how many medals he has!

According to his wiki page he has at least 2 HCs and 4 English rugby premiership titles which is very good.

2 x HCs? Was he at Wasps? He was hardly at Tigers back in 2000-2002 no? Too young surely.

Thats pretty class record. I thought he was always great at the chip kick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EunMEouRXLc

beshocked wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:But how many of those big games has Farrell had at 10?

And how many would he have had when in poor form and 19?

Do you mean this season or in his career so far?

When Farrell was 19 he was taking on the likes of Racing Metro,Clermont and Leinster.

He was 19 when winning the AP title, kicking 7 out of 7 in the final.

In the 2010-11 AP season Farrell was 19 and played most games at 10.

Yeah the difference was heas playing well. Ford isnt. If he was he'd be getting game time, same as when BTT kept Flood out for a while in 2010-11 just as Farrell managed to get in ahead of Houghaard when he was outperforming him.

Farrell struggles to get gametime at 10 ahead of a guy hes replaced for England. Ford isnt as flexible a player and not a viable option at 12 or 13.
Hes done well to get the games he has, and been backed by the club and their recruitment policy. He hasnt sat behind the more experienced Bowden.
Rory Cleggs older than both and played less games for Quins (despite beuing a saxon 2 years ago), much worse place to be stuck behind and a non international playing demi god.

Ford really isnt doing badly for game time, indeed theres places he might get even less. Or if he went to Sale his coach might publicly tell everyone what a douche he thinks he is when he has a poor game.

Tigers backed guys like Youngs Cole and Tuilagi when they were raw youngsters, its not as if its a graveyard.

red_stag wrote:2 x HCs? Was he at Wasps? He was hardly at Tigers back in 2000-2002 no? Too young surely.

Thats pretty class record. I thought he was always great at the chip kick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EunMEouRXLc

Goode got 42 games at Tigers between 98-02 (according to wiki so maybe)

He had two stints at Tigers ..won 4 league titles and two HCs the first time and doing the league and Anglo Welsh double alongside losing the HC final.
Plus he took Gold in the Daniel Lambert lookalike competition

HammerofThunor wrote:

red_stag wrote:2 x HCs? Was he at Wasps? He was hardly at Tigers back in 2000-2002 no? Too young surely.

Thats pretty class record. I thought he was always great at the chip kick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EunMEouRXLc

Goode got 42 games at Tigers between 98-02 (according to wiki so maybe)

Goode started the 2001 final against Stade. Tigers only really came to life when he was replaced by Jamie Hamilton and Healey switched to 10. I think he was on the bench the following year against Munster.

I knew he was there around 2007 but didnt know he was there that first time.

Fair play.

In fact very few players can boast that record plus playing in Super 14 and Top 14.

BTW this is not a Ford v Farrell thread. If it was Farrell would win hands down - for now.

Would George Ford develop better if he left Tigers. I would say not - for all the reasons given before. He is getting enough game time to develop and try and supplant the man who was the England incumbent till he broke a toe.

If I was being evil I would suggest Bath should sign Owen Farrell. Here we have a man who is well developed and not a risk, who has won the AP title, been a nominee for IRB player of the year, was hailed as a certain tourist by the Lions Manager yet finds himself as second choice at his club.

Other Goode fact of the day...his tries per minute ratio for Saracens and for England are both better than David Strettles, only one of them has been selected as a wing in the current EPS

I don't care how many starts Farrell has had for club or country. His pre-programmed routine of kicking away posession regardless of the tactical situation means that the actual amount of time he's been on the pitch with the ball on hand is probably less than the average ball boy at an AP match.

I think that oddly, the best i've seen Farrell play was against the AB, which was a fine team effort. But lets face it, most of the time the best you can expect from him is solid kicking from the tee.

I don't think he's the future, at least in a 10 shirt for England, i'd like to see Flood improve a bit and Burns and Ford working their way in.

Oh right so Ford is basically not playing because he's not in form. Fair enough.

I do actually think Ford should stay at Leicester. I have said it before but he needs to be making progress.

You say he is not in form - what is he doing wrong?

LondonTiger I suppose we should ask the question - why would Ford or Farrell move?

For Ford his father is at Bath, would he get more gametime actually? Possibly higher wage but he's likely not to get HC rugby next season. Whereas at Leicester at least he's going to get a decent shot at silverware based on current things.

Farrell would be leaving a club that has given him decent gametime (albeit not all at 10).


Remember most 10s do better with their pack on top. Leicester and Saracens both have very good packs.

I would say Ford and Farrell should stay put.

Surprisingly if I was going to suggest a club other than Saracens in England for Farrell Jr it would be Saints. Saints would be getting a fly half with mental strength. He would be playing behind a strong pack and with a side which should be challenging for silverware.

Even as a Bath supporter I would think that Ford would be better placed staying at Leicester. At least for another year. He will get quite a lot of game time when Flood is away and I do think that Cockerill selects on form not reputation although Flood has a lot in the bank at the moment.

Its a school of hard knocks there but I think its a good one. If then at only 20 he thinks that needs regular 1st team rugby then go.

Also, does he think he'll get first team rugby at Bath? Donald is on big money, they seem to select him even though I remain to be convinced he's playing at his best and I think is contracted for a further year yet. Plus he won't be away for internationals. Finally unless Heathcote is planning on moving up to Scotland then he is going to be fighting for that 2nd spot.

Having said all that he's the type of player you would be happy to see your club sign.

Donald's contract is up and he will almost certainly go at the end of the season (probably japan) bath will likely need another fly half unless we depend on Devoto as back up or even convert Kyle Eastmond which was mentioned after he impressed in his first game for us.

Dan carter also has his sabatical thingy and we would have space for our marquee signing....obviously would never happen and wouldn't want a player for only 1 season anyway even if it is golden balls himself.

Maybe bath should invest in youth for bloomin once....haha what was i thinking....we will most likley sign some injury prone south african who is well known in the rainbow nation but not in England...he will probably be called something like Brikke van du Botha (nicknamed ox) and will only ever kick the ball, start fights and sit in the medical room.

Sirtidy, if all Brikke van du Botha does is kick then he is perfect for the current game plan.

That'll make Ford a bad signing. His kicking from hand has been very good but his kicking off the tee poor. I think Ford needs more time as a number two 10.

Frankly, if Brikke kicks his goals he will be an improvement on the incumbant... Also having someone starting fights would at least show a bit of backbone and might stop the team collapsing like wet newspaper...

Lets find this bloke and sign him up!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:He had two stints at Tigers ..won 4 league titles and two HCs the first time and doing the league and Anglo Welsh double alongside losing the HC final.
Plus he took Gold in the Daniel Lambert lookalike competition

Lol. I wonder how many on here know who Daniel Lambert was (outside of Leicestershire)

Haha funking brilliant had know idea who this lad was but just wiki'd Daniel Lambert ......

"He was a keen sportsman and extremely strong, on one occasion fighting a bear in the streets of Leicester. He was an expert in sporting animals, widely respected for his expertise with...fighting cocks"

I could imagine Goode fighting a bear back in his leicester days, probably for some deep fried salmon outside a chippy in the wee hours, and he plays with Neil Best so the expertise in fighting cocks is probably spot on too.

P.s I think Brikke was hersh's BIG signing watch this space.....

What I can't understand about Bath is that they have a young 10 in good form with a big boot and then they bench him behind the exact opposite.

Seems like all the denials are true and Ford is likley to sign for bath, I find this one rather strange given that we have heathcote and Ford hasn't been on fire this year however Heathcote will be off with Scotland and Fords England credtentials will likley take a nose dive when he joins bath (they always seems to) so he will offer a more permanent option. I wonder if heathcote could fill the 12 role like Olly barkley did, a playmaking 12 who can kick.

I can't see McHeathcote leaving just yet as his under contract I think.

It must mean that Donald is leaving, if that is the case then I hope we don't start him again this season

Looks like Tigers are swapping ford for Myler. Not a bad replacement.

Ford is a good player, but when he cocks it up, boy does he man sausage it up.

Heathcote has another year or so on his contract so as I said on the Bath thread we will have 2 20 year old FH's who are likely to miss some of the season with internationals, or at least be off training.

Assuming Donald is off to Japan as reported, the 3rd choice will be Devoto I presume, giving us the youngest set of Fh's around!

Is that a good thing?

I'm not sure it is, an experienced head would be good to have in there too I think.

Jimpy wrote:Looks like Tigers are swapping ford for Myler. Not a bad replacement.

Ford is a good player, but when he cocks it up, boy does he man sausage it up.

Miler from saints?

Never been a fan so I hope not! Can't really see the thinking behind fords move. He would be getting more game time this season if he wasn't in poor form. I think he could of made the shirt his own by end of the season.

Aren't the Tigers getting Mele from Perpignan as well who can play 10? Have to admit that im not the biggest fan of Myler and would probably prefer Bowden but we will see, he's not the worst replacement in the world.

They might swap Lamb for Ford..............

nathan wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Looks like Tigers are swapping ford for Myler. Not a bad replacement.

Ford is a good player, but when he cocks it up, boy does he man sausage it up.

Miler from saints?

Never been a fan so I hope not! Can't really see the thinking behind fords move. He would be getting more game time this season if he wasn't in poor form. I think he could of made the shirt his own by end of the season.

Imagine if someone told you they would pay you more for doing less, whilst your current employer was telling you you needed to work harder and do a better job.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

nathan wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Looks like Tigers are swapping ford for Myler. Not a bad replacement.

Ford is a good player, but when he cocks it up, boy does he man sausage it up.

Miler from saints?

Never been a fan so I hope not! Can't really see the thinking behind fords move. He would be getting more game time this season if he wasn't in poor form. I think he could of made the shirt his own by end of the season.

Imagine if someone told you they would pay you more for doing less, whilst your current employer was telling you you needed to work harder and do a better job.

i highly doubt that's the way Ford thinks, he always seemed a level headed lad.

Ford can't deny that his performances have been sub-par this season and does need to up it if he wants to start consistently. But also cannot blame him for his decision, the lure of working with your Dad, having week in week out starts at a big English clubs like Bath and get paid a good wage. Sounds good to me. But still undoubtedly disappointed.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

nathan wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Looks like Tigers are swapping ford for Myler. Not a bad replacement.

Ford is a good player, but when he cocks it up, boy does he man sausage it up.

Miler from saints?

Never been a fan so I hope not! Can't really see the thinking behind fords move. He would be getting more game time this season if he wasn't in poor form. I think he could of made the shirt his own by end of the season.

Imagine if someone told you they would pay you more for doing less, whilst your current employer was telling you you needed to work harder and do a better job.

That's pretty much why JJ left Quins, more rotation and more money. And how we kept Evans as well.

Oh and Myler would be a horrible choice, Saints barely manage to attack with the ball when he's at 10.

yappysnap wrote:Oh and Myler would be a horrible choice, Saints barely manage to attack with the ball when he's at 10.

indeed!

Maybe he meant Miller at Sale? Or else Clegg is only at Leeds for this season (I think) or Andy Goode is in a rich vein of form...

yappysnap wrote:Maybe he meant Miller at Sale? Or else Clegg is only at Leeds for this season (I think) or Andy Goode is in a rich vein of form...

Myler, from Saints, would be perfect for us (Tigers). He is a solid 10 who can kick goals and manage a game which is what we need during the AIs/ 6ns. Hopefully he would do similar job to the one that Staunton did, he may not have been pretty or exciting but he got results for Tigers. With Myler we would have 3 very good options, Floody would be first choice and Myler provides solid back-up whereas Bowden is a bit more attacking and a good bench option as he covers 12 too. Getting Goode back would be great but I can't see it happening, Miller would be good but I thought he was going to Glaws, wouldn't want Clegg personally I'd rather a reliable journeyman (for want of a better word).

As for Ford if he isn't prepared to fight for his place then he's not suited to Tigers, he only needed to look at Cole, Parling, Youngs X2, Tuilagi etc. for examples of how Cockers can develop internationals and guys like Mafi, Slater, Morris etc. have improved a lot too.