Pro 12 rivalries how are they building?

I've done articles on this before,

https://www.606v2.com/t11346-celtic-league-rivalries

and feel that the Pro 12 could do with developing better rivalries outside the inter-province/region/district derbies as a little grudge does add to a game, and adds to the League overall.

I think that for the League to develop these need to build also, for the average supporter the deries are the big games and the ones outside that are just games against another nations teams. What I think would push the intrest of the league as a whole (rather than just having and intrest in province/region/district sides) is a bit of a niggle match, that could be bigger than some of the derbies.

The reson this came up is because Scarlets play Ulster this weekend, and its turned into a bit of a grudge match over the years, I consider it a bigger game than the Inter-Pro against Connacht now, and I'd say some Scarlets fans it may be bigger than the Dragons derby. For me this shows that the league is developing its own identy and therefore the whole product becomes more appealing to fans.

However I also think that the average Scarlets/Ulster fan may not be aware of the rivalery, and its just another game, I think the press should be promoting this rivalery to help sell the games to the public.

Below I'll list what rivalries I think are developing and you can add any I miss, and do you feel any of these are becoming bigger than any of the Derbies?

Ulster/Scarlets (would it be better now than the Bath won Llanelli RFC had? did it carry through to Scarlets?)
Ospreys/Leinster
Ospreys/Munster
Dragons/Glasgow
Connacht/Dragons

Hmm not sure I see the rivalry between Scarlets and Ulster.

Beyond the obvious interpro rivalry I probably feel more of a rivalry with the Ospreys and maybe even the Blues because of the Xavier Rush thing a few seasons ago.

Ospreys seem to have a good rivalry with the Irish provinces generally which is good for the league.

I think if the Welsh regions could just kick on a bit in Europe it would spice up the league rivalries a bit... right now its a bit too easy for the top Irish sides to stomach losing to the Welsh sides in the league...likewise with the Welsh guys ... I think they don't mind losing at this level if they are winning for Wales.

I'd like to see a bit more bite and niggle between the Welsh sides too...right now they are too placid and a bit more like trial games for Wales. Nothing like the fire and brimstone intensity of the Irish derbies.

rodders wrote:Hmm not sure I see the rivalry between Scarlets and Ulster.

I guess it may seem a bit more of a thing from the Scarlets view point. You lot have sneaked last minute wins against us a few times recenty. But IMO it has been there since the first season of regionalism when it was between us two for the League and we beat you at Stradey to seal the league. Then a few seasons later it was your turn to seal the League at Stradey. Also the Justin Harrison V Paul Morriatey in the tunnel at Ravenhill incident etc added some spice IMO.

Also it seems like we have mirrored each otehrs rises and falls. Much like Leinster and the Ospreys IMO.

rodders wrote:I'd like to see a bit more bite and niggle between the Welsh sides too...right now they are too placid and a bit more like trial games for Wales. Nothing like the fire and brimstone intensity of the Irish derbies.

Wasn't the unbeaten Scarlets V the no-win Ospreys at PYS this season niggly enough for you? There was quite a bit of off the ball from bothsides and even a little bit of on the ball too (yes Mr Stowers I am talking about you). However the welsh derby matches are realistically just Scarlet/Ospreys and Dragons/Blues, as there is no real rivalary between between the other sides IMO. That said come the end of the season sometimes the Blues/Ospreys or Scarlets/Dragons take on extra meaning with final placings and HEC qualification coming into play.

I used to see Ulster as Edinburgh's main rival. Glasgow have never really been a Rival in my eyes since I like to see them do well.

If both our pro teams do well Scottish Rugby does well.

The reason for seeing Ulster as our main rivals stems from the 2009 season when we had a series of fantastic matches when Robinson was in charge.

Not so much now since Ulster IMO are quite a bit better. Although the semi in the HC last year was really close and a cracking match.

I also think Edinburgh and Cardiff are building a rivalry at the moment.

How do you judge these things? The only thing a can really think of (other than the internet bitch-and-moan-a-meter) is attendance. People turn up for the games that are important to them. It's difficult to judge in the PRO12 due to the ease/difficultly travelling to different away sides. Do any of the none-local teams always attain relatively high attendances?

Other than local derbys, the league is struggling. There is one rivalry that is good though, Ospreys vs Leinster (Sorry Munster, you're no longer a force)

Ulster highest att this year so far was V Edinburgh, But the inter Pro with Munster would be a bigger game from a fans prespective.

I think it just comes down to teams, you want to beat, Leinster would be top of my list, so much in fact that, they would take up top 5 places on my teams I want to beat list.
Munster
Scarlets
Ospreys
Connacht
Edinburgh
and rest much of a muchness, just want wins.

Rivalries... hmmm, don't know about them. They move around in reality; just as top dog sides move and shift throughout the decades.

Rivalries are usually between two sides that beat the hell out of each other on a regular basis and still gain little traction from each other, season in, season out. So top sides in the league tend to have rivalries with fellow top sides. Mid ranked sides have their emotional battles with fellow mid rankers.

That's not to say that in any given year a mid ranked side might be the toughest encounter for many of the top sides, but the idea of rivalry takes time to develop and then it moves on again as the terrain changes (Mr Taff's allusion to Munster as an example of time moving on....or so some think)

As regards Leinster...I'd still say Munster is the main one - because the fire of the rivalry hasn't yet died, even if many (I'm not one of them) believe the competitiveness has. Ospreys are the obvious other - the obvious ones to knock off a perch in bragging terms.

What about the Welsh derbys? Are the fans there not dying to beat their neighbours?

In Ireland I would say any Irish team playing any other brings out fierce passion and of course any match against the Ospreys damn them.

As an Ospreys fan I don't really like Munster or Leinster, I like to see us beat them.

I dread Glasgow games at home, in fact the only games I have ever left early were against Glasgow and have never stayed at a Glasgow game till the end. They really bring out the worst in us.

I look forward to playing the Blues, their our biggest rivals as the other main city club.

The Scarlets are more like an annoying little brother who are often beaten. Sometimes they get a bit mouthy, but are often slapped into place.

Harsh Alan.. I like that the Leinster rivalry is getting stronger. Altho I think our recent win ratio over them is going to diminish quickly over the next few seasons! Agree on Glasgow. Feel like we should always beat them at the Lib, but they usualy go and gubb us

However nothing can match the Scarlets are our main rivals. I love the boxing day games. The atmos, banter is intense as it is good. Nothing can round Christmas of better than beating them. 2010 was....

Does any other set of Welsh or Irish franchises actually compete for a trophy each year like the Scottish teams do?

George Carlin wrote:Does any other set of Welsh or Irish franchises actually compete for a trophy each year like the Scottish teams do?

Like a token derby teams trophy? There's the Evening post trophy between O's and Scarlets but no one really cares about it...

Like it when the O's are playing the three top Irish squads & Glasgow , have no interest in the other welsh teams, Scarlets like Shifty said... are like a little brother you like to put back in their place when you see them, no real rivalry there. Blues & Dragons are pretty poor sides, nothing to really raise our game for with those two.

In order of preference:

Leinster
---
Munster
Ulster
---
Glasgow

Breadvan wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Does any other set of Welsh or Irish franchises actually compete for a trophy each year like the Scottish teams do?

Like a token derby teams trophy? There's the Evening post trophy between O's and Scarlets but no one really cares about it...

Glasgow and Edinburgh play for a nice little silver jug called the 1872 Cup, named after the first ever inter-district match between the old Edinburgh district against Glasgow district in 1872. Edinburgh won that game 3–0.

And, well, that's about the last time they got their hands on it.