Does Argentina prove how biased the AI's are to the SH teams???

First topic message reminder :

I'm not saying it is, but a point brought up time and time again that the tri (RC) nations battle hardens the SH nations and the NH teams generally go into the AI's rusty first game up.

I recently spoke to a professional (not player) within the game who states that the weeks between RC and AI's act as a perfect training camp and far exceeds the club comps of the non competitive Rabo, or even the HC.

When asked about the 6N and summer tours he claims the months between tournament and summer tours, in which the players return to club act as a deterent to performance.

In his opinion the only games where each nation is on an even keel is 6N's RC and WC's but not for cross sectional hemisphere teams. So the only way teams are competing from north to south fairly is at a world cup.

Now don't get me wrong, these are not my own opinions, I agree with parts and disagree with others of his theory, it seems in part a bit whingy after saturday for me, but I can see a number of points he makes.

Maybe the answer is re jigging the int season, haing the 6N in the summer and a club and international season? Maybe there isn't a problem and it is just whinging?

I know the title will draw in the certain few but lets keep it facts and opinions, and try to discuss it logically.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Wales are the better team!...............

No they are not - Argentina beat them easily thus argentina are the better team. Wales never looked like scoring a try. Argentina scored two. Tebh best team won. look at the scoreboard!

Argentina are good and most posters have realised that long before they were admitted into the RC. I watched all their matches in the RC and wasnt at all surprised to see them fare well. However, winning against the six nations champions away from home was obviously a big and against the odds result for them for lots of reasons.

You'd swear by some of the logic and arguements present here that Argentina are so good they should wipe the floor of all NH opposition in the AIs. Theyre not that good and they have never manager this before as far as I know so not sure they will come close this time either.

One loss to a lower ranked team doesnt make you better than them really.

Not sure many people would consider Australia definitively worse than France, Ireland and Scotland. Though they have lost their last match against those teams.

Are Tonga better than France?
Are New Zealand just as good as Australia?

No obvioulsy not. Wales all things considered may have lost to Argentina but this was a bad loss for them and are probably a better team.

In that case TJ Wales are the best team in the NH because they beat them all last up...

But Scotland and France beat Australia last up so we're better than Aus...

Aus drew with NZ so we're on par with NZ...

You have to agree it's your logic, Wales and NZ are on par, Wales are top of the NH tree but Argentina are better, therefore Argentina are the best team in the...

See how it doesn't work like that???!!!

Argentina are a good team who didn't perform very well against a Wales team who just didn't show up. Wales were awfull and Argentina deserved to win.

But if Scotland go to Argentina and come home undefeated then gets beat by all in the 6N it kinda tells you something.

Argentina outplayed a very poor welsh performance, but in reality England, Ireland, France and Wales are all very near each other and a step ahead of Argentina! Thats not disrespectfull, it's my opinion.

Its totally disrespectful and simply not true. How you can claim to be better than them when they have comprehensively outplayed you?

It really does amuse me how welsh fans can claim to be the better team on the end of a defeat.

Last year was last year. this year is this year and this year Argentina are the better side - 14 pt win, 2 tries to nil, Wales never looked like scoring.

Easy because we ARE!!!

Similarly NZ are a better team than Aus but never beat them last time out!!

So do you agree that Scotland, Ireland and France are all better teams than Aus?

Do you agree that Wales are a better team than all other 6N teams?

Where is the "head in the sand" smiley? Wales were beaten by the better team. a clear gulf in class.

some results are aberrations - such as Scotland beating aus. this one was not

I think the real world rankings are

NZ - head and shoulders above the rest
Aus, SA, France next and very close
England
Argentina
Wales probably the best of the rest

So some results are abberations just not the ones you think?!

Such as Scotland outperforming Aus in aus?! Or Ireland outplaying Aus in the world cup? But clearly both teams are better than Aus by your standards!

And how do you put NZ ahead of Aus when they drew just a few weeks ago?

So let me just get this straight, teams are better because of the last head to head, unless theyre not, but in this case they are, and in the last season all of wales were aberations, clearly.
Thanks for the enlightenment

No - teams are better when they are better.

No matter how much you want to pretend otherwise argentina are clearly a better side at the moment than Wales. This was not a close game. Argentina won easily. Wales never looked like scoring a try.

You appear to have the same delusion that many welsh fans have. When you lose you remain the better team just defeated by poor selections, ref errors etc. and somehow remain the better team despite the defeat.


Its really simple. when a team wins by 14 pts, outscores by 2 tries to nil they are the better side.

THE BEST TEAM WON!

TJ wrote:Where is the "head in the sand" smiley? Wales were beaten by the better team. a clear gulf in class.

some results are aberrations - such as Scotland beating aus. this one was not

I think the real world rankings are

NZ - head and shoulders above the rest
Aus, SA, France next and very close
England
Argentina
Wales probably the best of the rest

Some laughable rankings there TJ. Now I'm reading on and reading other poster's responses I think I know what's going on. A clear gulf in class? I don't think so. We were beaten by the better team on the day, anyone can admit that. Now to what you're saying, Argentina are a step up in class and are overall a much better team; well it seems that is highly debatable. I don't mean to single out your team Scotland here TJ, but every time they lose hundreds of fans on here (and back on the old 606) whinge about how bad their performance was. It's happened in the last 5 Six Nations tournaments, trust me. Now you're complaining that the Welsh are bemoaning their performance? Rich, and as I kindly pointed out to a delusional England fan earlier it's an actual fact that it was a very bad performance, the first in a long time. Hopefully the last in a long time too. From reading your first post to your last one it is clear to see that your agenda is to just gloat over an Argentina win. They've been congratulated enough and the Welsh have also been honest in their assessment of both teams. I'll say it again, well done Argentina, you completely outplayed Wales.

Also I think I made an error in what I stated earlier:

Morgannwg wrote:If that's the performance performed by Eng, Ire, Aus, France; then I guess they would be disapointed with a loss. We wouldn't hear them claiming they're the better team though.

Wrong. England would claim that. They finished below Wales in the last RWC and 6 Nations, they have also lost to Wales on the last two encounters yet the fans still claim they are a better team. That delusion on a whole new level.

TJ wrote:No - teams are better when they are better.

No matter how much you want to pretend otherwise argentina are clearly a better side at the moment than Wales. This was not a close game. Argentina won easily. Wales never looked like scoring a try.

You appear to have the same delusion that many welsh fans have. When you lose you remain the better team just defeated by poor selections, ref errors etc. and somehow remain the better team despite the defeat.


Its really simple. when a team wins by 14 pts, outscores by 2 tries to nil they are the better side.

THE BEST TEAM WON!

Oh dear god. For the final time everyone can admit the better team won, which they did. The rest just shows you're on a poor wumming trip. Go back and gloss over sundays game, it's not often you score tries now is it.

I'd say Wales are better based on the last 10 tests, but there's not really much of a gap.

Whilst Wales were favourites I don't this could have been classed as an upset. Very tight margins at this level and everyone knows Argentina are just going to get better and better now they've joined the Rugby Championship.

Morgannwg
Now you're complaining that the Welsh are bemoaning their performance?

No I am not. yes it was a poor welsh performance but what I am complaining about is the disrespect shown to Argentina

................From reading your first post to your last one it is clear to see that your agenda is to just gloat over an Argentina win.

No its not. Its about giving Argentina credit for the improvement over the last year and not being so disrespectful to them.

They've been congratulated enough and the Welsh have also been honest in their assessment of both teams. I'll say it again, well done Argentina, you completely outplayed Wales.

Well why are welsh fans ( fan - the bluesman) still trying to claim Wales are a better team? Its a odd delusion. I have no delusions about scotland.

So you quantify better TJ by your say so, somehow I don't think the IRB are going to go for that.

Forget about rankings, a flawed system that doesn't truly portray who is at where, TJ's say so should be good enough!!

I understand why there are so many people willing to try to drag wales down, I honestly do, 3 GS's in 7 years, but the WRU will do that soon enough!!!

Calm down guys.

Argentina was better on the day. End of story.

I simply find it incredible that you can be comprehensively outplayed in all aspects of the game, never look like scoring a try and still claim to be the better side. its an odd delusion. Shared by some english fans as well.

TJ I think you made your point but it was a non-issue and it turns out nobody agrees with you. Maybe it's time to walk away now, this gloating over an Arg win is cringeworthy.

I am not gloating over an argentina win. I am applauding them for the improvement they have made and I just want you guys to show some respect to them. Can you explain how wales are a better team than Argentina despite being comprehensively beaten?

gloating is hardly the word Morg.

I have in no way disrespected Argentina, youve m oved the goal posts a number of times and youve reached the end of the line mate.

Wales are better than Argentina the same way Scotland are not better than Aus!!!

thebluesman - you have been very disrespectful to argentina. Its really very unedifying. continually claiming wales to be a better side despite being well beaten.

I am not gloating. Simply truthful.

Can you please explain why wales are the better side despite being well beaten?

I can't see where we showed Arg disrespect in saying that we expected a really tough game from a battle hardened team and expecting it to be close, and also think going into the game that we could quite easily lose it. Then after the game we congratulate them on the win. Even the FB followers slated the WRU for what they felt was an incorrect summary of the game, the WRU took it down and then reposted something different. I don't see where the disrespect from the WELSH is there.

TJ, this is going in circles now.

Argentina was better on the day, that means it is debatable whether they are a better team.

The Boks beat the All Blacks last year prior to the world cup, that doesn't mean the Boks are a better team.

Argentina got their respect from all and sundry, to continue questioning someone who says Wales is a better team is his opinion, it was a one off game, not a championship trophy.

Same way Scotland aren't better than Aus!!!

Because if he acts reasonable morg theres no argument. He is repeating the same sentence over and over for annoyance and starting to look rather silly!!

Disrespectfull is saying Scotland is a wooden sppon contender year after year and don't deserve to be in the 6N, but I would never say anything like that, it's disgusting!!

Lets rewind a bit here.

Maestegmafia was basically saying on his Wales v Arg thread that everyone who voted for Arg were just voting for them because they dislike Wales, what a load of tosh, people voted for Arg as they were a very good team.

Then other Welsh posters started calling us Bell ends for voting against Wales, if that isn't disrespectful towards fellow 606ers and Argentina then I don't know what is?

Your right HERSH, you don't know what is

If you read my predictions I gave Wales a 50/50 chance of the win!!! Less than I gave them at twickers, and dublin!!!

Only a Bell End would do that!

Bit harsh morg, at least HERSH's comments have a bit of humour to them.

I did say however before the game I was very worried by Howleys manner, and comments he was making before the game, niaive and dull!!!!

Also does anyone get the feeling when in interviews he just wants to get to the pub!!!

Howley is all around Howler, it's finally official to the rugby world.

We lost to a team that doesn't even have it's own professional league.

It's worse than losing to Italy and just as bad as losing to Fiji.

They never have a complete squad and we have umpteen the amount of time to develop squad and player familiairty.

Our coaches suck, our players are stupid and it's evident that man for man, Argentinean rugby players are naturally and genetically more talented.

Sergio Parisse, argie
Diego Dominguez, argie

Pattern emerging?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Your right HERSH, you don't know what is

If you read my predictions I gave Wales a 50/50 chance of the win!!! Less than I gave them at twickers, and dublin!!!

TBF you were half right

Morgannwg wrote:I can't see where we showed Arg disrespect in saying that we expected a really tough game from a battle hardened team and expecting it to be close, and also think going into the game that we could quite easily lose it. Then after the game we congratulate them on the win. Even the FB followers slated the WRU for what they felt was an incorrect summary of the game, the WRU took it down and then reposted something different. I don't see where the disrespect from the WELSH is there.

the disrespect is claiming to be a better side despite being outplayed in all areas, in claiming the difference is because of the timing, in claiming wales should have won. NOt all welsh fans perhaps but one or two on here and I have provided direct quotes.

Guys - its only a forum and only opinions I just wanted someone who claimed Wales are the better team to actually explain why given the loss. Don't take it so personally.

Tell you what. I bet Argentina are above Wales in the rankings after the autumn internationals and if they are not I am sure the moderators will provide you with some fun by changing my name to "Wales are the best - the poster formerly known as TJ" or something that equally shows that I was wrong.

anyway you can console yourselves with the thought that at least you are not English

I, as the sole representative of Argentina in this forum, can't believe what some people write in this thread.
I can't believe the logical (or perhaps illogical) of some people in this thread.

Does anyone know how long each team gets to spend together per season? From what I understand the SH teams have longer and the ABs the longest of those.

Fair play to them for organising their season better. The NH season is all over the place and continunity is hard especially for Rabo teams who are then accused of not taking the league seriously.

Having said that the difference in the hemispheres is coaching. They're smarter down south. The NH is always a few years behind.

I think you really need your head checked if you think Argentina are so good that they are better than Wales. Over the last two years Wales have achieved so much more. Argentina got a draw v SA, performed reasonably well as expected in the RC and have beaten Wales. Wow!! Does that make them better than the grand slam champions. No it doesn't really to be honest. We all knew already that they could beat good teams on their day. The jury's out until they back it up with a series of good results.

so when did Wales last get a draw or a win against a SH side?

How you can argue that Wales are a better side after being so well beaten is beyond me.

You can argue the better side lost in games like the Scotland / Australia game but in this one? 2 trys to nil. 14 pts differnce? Wales never looked like winning.

Argentina have improved a lot in the last year. wales have gone backwards. Want to take the bet that Argentina are above wales in the rankings at the end of the autumn series?

Sorry - welsh fans need a reality check.

TJ

Keep re iterating your condisending facts all you like, Wales are the better team!!

Scotland can beat the SH teams regularly, doesn't men Wales aren't twice the team they are too!!

Can you explain why then the bluesman? I have explained why I believe argentina are better.

Want to take me up on that bet? argentina to be above Wales in the rankings by the end of the autumn series or you can get the mods to change my user name to reflect the lost bet :-)

It's quite simple TJ, Wales must be better because you claim they are not.

Just out of interest though, where do you beleive Wales are in terms of NH rankings, just to get an overall picture of how you think?

1 FRANCE
2 ENGLAND
3 WALES
4 IRELAND
5 SCOTLAND
6 ITALY

So actually you have no way of explaining why Wales are better?

Of the NH teams? Sometimes hard to tell as many are in flux including Wales.

France the best.

England wales and ireland fighting over second with little to chose between them probably in the order England Wales Ireland

Scotland and Italy fighting not to be last and fair step behind

i would put argentina just below France.

It will all become clearer in a few weeks time at the end of the series

Oh dear, HERSH has just devalued every word...

But let me ask you, what is the difference between Wales winning in Dublin, and then Twickers, taking France to peices last time out against each, when all teams have the identical time to prep, and this Argentina game who except for 2/3 weeks have been together for months??

And what is the difference between Ireland and SA, and Australia and England? Who do you feel is better?

I just used the IRB world rankings.

Simple really, how can anyone disagree about that?

Easy they don't take into consideration just about anything other than the most recent result, and they are ultimately flawed and can be manipulated by fixture list selection.

Last year is last year and how are last years 6 N games of any relevance to the debate which is are Wales or Argentina the better side. Argentina have improved greatly. Wales have not. the world rankings are slow to react to rapid changes in teams form but show Wales in what position?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Easy they don't take into consideration just about anything other than the most recent result, and they are ultimately flawed and can be manipulated by fixture list selection.

Nonsense - they are slow to react because they take into account two years results! If it was the most recent result Argentina would be ahead of Wales. Wales 6N results from last year keep them above argentina for now.

I do have to say last years 6N was rather bald men fighting over a comb. No one shone really.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Easy they don't take into consideration just about anything other than the most recent result, and they are ultimately flawed and can be manipulated by fixture list selection.

Oh ok, so you want Wales on top?

Wales
France
England
Ireland
Scotland
Italy

The only thing wrong with that is that Wales are the 3rd ranked NH team in the official IRB rankings, but hey if it shuts you up lets just go with it.

Next you be saying Wales were world beaters in the 2011 RWC by beating Ireland, a team ranked lower than yourselves!

Well this thread actually attempts to debate that a limited team like Argentina have received benefit from the SH international seasons benefits over the NH.

Your the WUM whos chimed in (over and over) repeating the same things.

The NH record over weaker SH opposition first game up in the AI's suggests the thread makes a good point don't you think?

Here are the ranks according to the IRB

1(1) NZLNEW ZEALAND 92.91
2(3) RSASOUTH AFRICA 85.50
3(2) AUSAUSTRALIA 84.82
4(5) FRAFRANCE 84.58
5(4) ENGENGLAND 83.09
6(6) WALWALES 80.60
7(8) ARGARGENTINA 80.29
8(7) IREIRELAND 79.04
9(9) SCOSCOTLAND 77.97
10(10) SAMSAMOA 77.14
11(11) ITAITALY 76.61

As I said above. NZ far and away the best, SA, Aus, France, England in the second rank and very close. wales argentina ireland a step behind but also close, Scotland and italy disappearing into the pack.

at the end of the autumn series I expect argentina to be up there with the second group ahead of most NH teams as I thin k that would be a true reflection of their place now given the rapid and recent improvement.