England in India

First topic message reminder :

England main side is in India from Nov 2012 thru end of Jan 2013.
The schedule below....and interestingly Eng Performance Side ( meaning A side?) will also be in India overlapping with the senior sides tour.....
I believe Netherland will also be playing the Eng Performance side in 3 games at Poona club.......why at Poona club ?

Tue Oct 30 - Thu Nov 1
09:30 local | 04:00 GMT
05:00 CET TBC v England XI
Brabourne Stadium, Mumbai

Sat Nov 3 - Mon Nov 5
09:30 local | 04:00 GMT
05:00 CET TBC v England XI
Bandra Kurla Complex, Mumbai

Thu Nov 8 - Sun Nov 11
09:30 local | 04:00 GMT
05:00 CET TBC v England XI
Sardar Patel Stadium B Ground, Motera, Ahmedabad

Thu Nov 15 - Mon Nov 19
09:30 local | 04:00 GMT
05:00 CET 1st Test - India v England
Sardar Patel Stadium, Motera, Ahmedabad

Fri Nov 23 - Tue Nov 27
09:30 local | 04:00 GMT
05:00 CET 2nd Test - India v England
Wankhede Stadium, Mumbai

Wed Dec 5 - Sun Dec 9
09:00 local | 03:30 GMT
04:30 CET 3rd Test - India v England
Eden Gardens, Kolkata

Thu Dec 13 - Mon Dec 17
09:30 local | 04:00 GMT
05:00 CET 4th Test - India v England
Vidarbha Cricket Association Stadium, Jamtha, Nagpur

Thu Dec 20
20:00 local | 14:30 GMT
15:30 CET 1st T20I - India v England
Subrata Roy Sahara Stadium, Pune

Sat Dec 22
20:00 local | 14:30 GMT
15:30 CET 2nd T20I - India v England
Wankhede Stadium, Mumbai

Sun Jan 6 TBC v England XI
Feroz Shah Kotla, DelhiDelhi

Tue Jan 8 TBC v England XI
Harbax Singh Stadium, DelhiDelhi

Fri Jan 11
14:30 local | 09:00 GMT
10:00 CET 1st ODI - India v England
Saurashtra Cricket Association Stadium, Rajkot

Tue Jan 15
14:30 local | 09:00 GMT
10:00 CET 2nd ODI - India v England
Nehru Stadium, Kochi

Sat Jan 19
14:30 local | 09:00 GMT
10:00 CET 3rd ODI - India v England
HEC International Cricket Stadium Complex, Ranchi

Wed Jan 23
14:30 local | 09:00 GMT
10:00 CET 4th ODI - India v England
Himachal Pradesh Cricket Association Stadium, Dharamsala

Sun Jan 27
14:30 local | 09:00 GMT
10:00 CET 5th ODI - India v England
Punjab Cricket Association Stadium, Mohali, Chandigarh

The BCCI have decided to ban photo agencies (and presumably freelancers too) from gaining accreditation to cover the series. Instead the BCCI will employ photographers themselves and make the photos available on their website.

As somebody whose dad was a freelance sports photographer who spent a lot of time promoting photographer causes, and whose mum still works in the sports photography industry, I can say that this decision will not go down well at all. Not only can we only expect to see the pictures the BCCI want us to see, but I expect a lot of photographers will be out there already (even if they didn't have any accreditation I'm sure they'd have expected to get it). Any freelancers in particular will be relying on the series for work.

The likelihood is that the media will choose to institute a picture blackout, rather than take the BCCI pictures...

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/591204.html

That's a very backward move... a form of greedy & selfish 'capitalist-based communism' if you ask me.

Every country should have the right to send their own freelance photography agencies over to cover sporting events. And we should be free to view ALL photographic coverage produced - not just what BCCI thinks is good for us.

Let's face it - they are not very good at supplying high quality PR are they? Great at rubbing up others the wrong way though.

Why on earth is the BCCI insisting on being disagreeable at every given opportunity?

ShankyCricket wrote:At an outstanding average of 55, of course. Legend.

weren't those his debut series and about 2 to 3 tests.

do you judge a cricketer by his debut figures...or his latest outings such as in Lanka and UAE ?

b.t.w warne averaged a 200+ in his debut series against India.

msp83 wrote:Why on earth is the BCCI insisting on being disagreeable at every given opportunity?

because they're numpties who have to try and make everything diffcuilt, whilst trying to sabotage the game of cricket!

KP_fan wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:At an outstanding average of 55, of course. Legend.

weren't those his debut series and about 2 to 3 tests.

do you judge a cricketer by his debut figures...or his latest outings such as in Lanka and UAE ?

b.t.w warne averaged a 200+ in his debut series against India.

No. He has played 5 Tests and 2 of those Tests were played in his second series where he was comfortably outbowled by Swann, who was in his debut series. So that argument doesn't hold water (pretty much like everything you post). He averages 51 in Sri Lanka and in his last series in SL(i.e. the one Test he played) his figures were comparable to Samit Patel. I won't read anything into UAE. Pakistan are hopeless against left arm spin. EVEN Paul Harris has made merry against them.


For the record, Swann averaged 39 in India on his debut tour.

Is Monty Dravid's lovechild because I keep reading articles where he is drooling over him saying he has to play. Or is he trying to help India because as has been pointed out he does not have a good record there.

I think the opinion he could do well is based on getting Tendulkar out and jumping around a lot 7 years ago. He was awful last time England were in India and has been pretty ordinary for most of his England career.

what's slightly bizarre is that Dravid seems to think Monty should replace Patel, which won't happen. There's absolutely no way England will go in with five bowlers in the first test. If Monty plays it will be in place of one of the seamers, but it looks like England prefer playing Patel at 6 and using him for a few overs of spin if need be.

I don't think Patel will be a threat with the ball, but I think he'll be OK at getting through 10 overs a day or so. In any case, India's batsmen play spin very well, so England's best chance is surely with the seamers anyway...

Monty had a very good couple of tests in the UAE, but was ordinary in SL and in the past in India. Given the Indian pitches won't remotely resemble the UAE ones, I'm not sure there's much of a case for picking Monty in the tests here. Of course if England go into the final test 1-0 down and it looks like being a featherbed they may well go with the five bowlers (inc. Monty), but that's a very far-off situation at the moment.

ShankyCricket wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:At an outstanding average of 55, of course. Legend.

weren't those his debut series and about 2 to 3 tests.

do you judge a cricketer by his debut figures...or his latest outings such as in Lanka and UAE ?

b.t.w warne averaged a 200+ in his debut series against India.

No. He has played 5 Tests and 2 of those Tests were played in his second series where he was comfortably outbowled by Swann, who was in his debut series. So that argument doesn't hold water (pretty much like everything you post). He averages 51 in Sri Lanka and in his last series in SL(i.e. the one Test he played) his figures were comparable to Samit Patel. I won't read anything into UAE. Pakistan are hopeless against left arm spin. EVEN Paul Harris has made merry against them.


For the record, Swann averaged 39 in India on his debut tour.

--Discard the Pak series for Monty
Very true.....if you selectively discard the best figures of any bowler.....than all that you'd be left with is c.rap residual...quite a convenient way to make your point

--after 2 stunning tests in UAE......ONLY one failure in the first inning of the next test in Lankan...and decent 2nd inning of 2 for 50 odd...and he was dropped thereafter.
In any other country he would have gotten a much longer run before being dumped.

--Dravid and a number of those who are born and raised on spin diet are confirming that Monty is the spinner that will make a diffrence.... given his flight and variations and his ability to give a rip...against quality batters..on pitches that will turn and bounce.
Anyway England's current management finds 10 excuses to justify including a bowler....who can bat better.
and that was the subject of my first post on this forum....when I was making a pitch for Finn against SA and it was being mired by similar excuses to fit Bresnan ahead.

--regarding stats......well Warne averages nearly 50 against India and Jason Kreza 29........if stats would reveal all the pictures...all that one needs is a good software coder to write a routine whihc will pick the squads of 15 and team of 11 purely on stats......no need for any selectors

Even the greatest of spinners, Muttiah Muralitharan and Shane Warne struggled against India in India. Graeme Swann's record in India isn't great either.
If England are playing spinners, then the 2nd spinner certainly has to be Panesar. However keeping the team balance in mind they have gone for a spin bowling all-rounder at 6 to partner Swann who rightly is the number 1 spinner.
Now, I think they are right to go with Patel. Patel is an underrated cricketer in my view. His performances in Sri Lanka in his debut series wasn't a disaster like the debut series of Ravi Bopara was. He regularly bowled more than 10 overs a day, kept things quiet, and even chipped in with a wicket or 2 at times. So Patel has to play, and I think he has to get a fair run in the side.
Now on Panesar. Without doubt, Monty is England's number spinner. The spin bowling all-rounders who came through in recent years, in my view are way short of test class. Someone like Bresnan, if he can find the nip and pace of a couple of years ago, could be effective in India. Anderson has developed into a class act and is England's number 1 seamer. Steve Finn's pace is the best asset for England in the pace department. Stuart Broad did well in Asian conditions before.
But there are fitness concerns about Finn and Broad and Finn won't play the first test for sure. Broad's loss of pace over the last summer is a matter of concern, particularly in conditions where he won't get much help from the pitch.
England's best bet to get things going is to go in with Anderson, Finn and Broad with Swann as the spinner and Patel as the support act. Finn's out, I think they should give Bresnan a chance to start with, but if Bresnan doesn't come through well, then they should consider Monty.
It is not as senseless as it is been made out over here by some.

chances are Finn will be fit for the second test though, so I'd expect him to come in then. I don't think it's senseless to consider Monty, but I don't think England's balance looks right with just two seamers in the side, hence why I expect them to go 3 seamers + Swann + Patel for the series...

MFC- if bres has a cracking game, then finn isnt necesarily a shoe-in for 2nd test..

Finn maybe an automatic choice in limited overs, but remeber he isnt a first choice bowler in test matches yet.

The only way Monty will play is if we go one down and/or Patel gets milked.

Stuart Broad has to be at a hundred % and on top of his game. In such a situation, he could be a handful even in sub-continent conditions. But the Broad we saw last summer was a bit off the top level game and now he has fitness issues. If Broad's not fully fit and Bresnan doesn't find his touch, I would certainly go for Panesar. Graeme Onions is a bowler I would like to see in action, but Monty's performances in the warm up games were better.

Even though India haven't lost a home Test Series for 8 years now, I'm supremely confident of an English series win. You have to remember how superior the English bowlers are to...well any team apart from South Africa. England can easily blow teams away, just like they did earlier in the year in the subcontinent. The only worry is the batting, but there were signs that the top order were getting their stuff together in the Sri Lankan series. What's more, India's bowling is weaker then Pakistan's and Sri Lanka's. There is no Ajmal or Mendis in the India side, there is only Zaheer Khan to worry about and, to be perfectly honest, he's overrated. 2-1 England, maybe even 3-1. Can't see it any other way.

Duty281 wrote:Even though India haven't lost a home Test Series for 8 years now, I'm supremely confident of an English series win. You have to remember how superior the English bowlers are to...well any team apart from South Africa. England can easily blow teams away, just like they did earlier in the year in the subcontinent. The only worry is the batting, but there were signs that the top order were getting their stuff together in the Sri Lankan series. What's more, India's bowling is weaker then Pakistan's and Sri Lanka's. There is no Ajmal or Mendis in the India side, there is only Zaheer Khan to worry about and, to be perfectly honest, he's overrated. 2-1 England, maybe even 3-1. Can't see it any other way.

Zaheer Khan is overrated, Sachin Tendulkar is overrated.
The rest of them can't bat or bowl. Has to be 4-0 for England!.

The match preview from cricinfo seems to indicate that Panesar has an outside chance of taking Finn's place.

Patel, Bresnan, Broad, Anderson and Swann would be my bowlers. Bresnan seems to have found his form and luck in Finn being ruled out. Can't see anything other than a Indian series win, just whether we can actually win a test or not.

Speaking of Patel, does anyone else think that Cook must be a big fan of his? In Sri Lanka he batted at 7, after Prior and didn't score many runs. Yet it's looking very likely he'll bat at 6 tomorrow with Prior at 7, and the only thing that's changed since the Sri Lanka is Cook replacing Strauss as captain. Just a thought I had...

I won't be surprised if Patel has a decent series.
Just had a look at his and Ravi Bopara's records, Patel seems a better bowler, and as far as the batting averages go, their FC batting averages aren't that different. Of course stats have their own limitations, but Patel has to be given a decent run before he's cast aside.

To be honest I think that just reflects Patel's recent good form and the fact that batting him at 7 was a curious move in the first place - Prior's plenty good enough to bat 6, but it suggested a lack of full confidence in Samit's ability.

I have a feeling that England will play it very safe and use someone like a Pietersen or a Trott as Alastair Cook's partner for the first test, with a starting XI similar to the following:-

1 Cook
2 Pietersen
3 Trott
4 Bell
5 Bairstow
6 Prior
7 Patel
8 Broad
9 Swann
10 Onions
11 Anderson

For me, you have to play two front line spinners in India. Samit is not a front line bowler. He is a very fine player, and his bowling option will be very useful in the sub continent, but i don't believe he has the control, variation or guile to be one of a four man attack. For me, Panesar plays alongside Swann, with two seamers. It's what India would (and will) do...

My side for tomorrow morning:-
1. Cook
2. Compton
3. Trott
4. Pietersen
5. Bell
6. Patel
7. Prior
8. Broad
9. Swann
10. Anderson
11. Panesar

packofwolves wrote:For me, you have to play two front line spinners in India. Samit is not a front line bowler. He is a very fine player, and his bowling option will be very useful in the sub continent, but i don't believe he has the control, variation or guile to be one of a four man attack. For me, Panesar plays alongside Swann, with two seamers. It's what India would (and will) do...

My side for tomorrow morning:-
1. Cook
2. Compton
3. Trott
4. Pietersen
5. Bell
6. Patel
7. Prior
8. Broad
9. Swann
10. Anderson
11. Panesar

What about England playing 3 spinners in Swann, Panesar and Patel with Anderson, Broad and Trott doing the seam-up stuff?

If this does happen, the England XI could be :-

1 Cook
2 Pietersen
3 Trott
4 Bell
5 Bairstow
6 Prior
7 Patel
8 Broad
9 Swann
10 Anderson
11 Panesar

I don't see England going in with three, or even two specialist, spinners. There strength is the pace bowling and that is what they will back to bowl India out, and if they can't do it then I don't think the spinners will. The Indians are very good players of spin bowling and will love it if Panesar and Swann play.

Although I expect England to lose, something along the lines, of 2-0 or 3-1, if it weren't for their abysmal record against spin they would be seen as having a good chance (relatively) of winning in India. Sehwag, Gambhir and Tendulkar are out of form, whilst Kohli and Pujara have been playing very well recently they are still young and can be tested, and whilst Ashwin and Ohja are good bowlers, there is not the mystery of Ajmal there and they are playable. As for the Indian seamers, Zaheer is the main/only threat and even though he remains a canny operator, even he is not the bowler he once was.

I actually expect a evenly matches series on the whole, but with the scoreline at the end reading a comfortable victory due to more exceptional individual performances (probably from Kohli and Ashwin) and the inevitable England collapse in a few innings.

And if the team is not as follows tomorrow, I would be very surprised:

Cook
Compton
Trott
KP
Bell
Patel
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Swann
Anderson

JDizzle wrote:I don't see England going in with three, or even two specialist, spinners. There strength is the pace bowling and that is what they will back to bowl India out, and if they can't do it then I don't think the spinners will. The Indians are very good players of spin bowling and will love it if Panesar and Swann play.

Although I expect England to lose, something along the lines, of 2-0 or 3-1, if it weren't for their abysmal record against spin they would be seen as having a good chance (relatively) of winning in India. Sehwag, Gambhir and Tendulkar are out of form, whilst Kohli and Pujara have been playing very well recently they are still young and can be tested, and whilst Ashwin and Ohja are good bowlers, there is not the mystery of Ajmal there and they are playable. As for the Indian seamers, Zaheer is the main/only threat and even though he remains a canny operator, even he is not the bowler he once was.

I actually expect a evenly matches series on the whole, but with the scoreline at the end reading a comfortable victory due to more exceptional individual performances (probably from Kohli and Ashwin) and the inevitable England collapse in a few innings.

With England's fastest bowler Steven Finn being out injured, I can actually see England considering having 3 frontline spinners as it is a test match that is being played in India (where conditions often favour the slow/spin bowlers) and not in England (where conditions often favour seam/swing bowlers). If Finn was fit to play then yes England probably would have gone all out for a 3-1 pace-spin bowling combination, but without Finn I cannot see either Bresnan nor Onions being fast enough to cause the Indian batsmen major problems in their own conditions. With 3 frontline slow spinners in Indian conditions, I believe this will increase the chances of England at least making things awkward and harder for the Indian batsmen to score runs quickly as the batsmen would have to do all the work with their own bats in making the run scoring opportunities.

JDizzle wrote:I don't see England going in with three, or even two specialist, spinners. There strength is the pace bowling and that is what they will back to bowl India out, and if they can't do it then I don't think the spinners will. The Indians are very good players of spin bowling and will love it if Panesar and Swann play.

Although I expect England to lose, something along the lines, of 2-0 or 3-1, if it weren't for their abysmal record against spin they would be seen as having a good chance (relatively) of winning in India. Sehwag, Gambhir and Tendulkar are out of form, whilst Kohli and Pujara have been playing very well recently they are still young and can be tested, and whilst Ashwin and Ohja are good bowlers, there is not the mystery of Ajmal there and they are playable. As for the Indian seamers, Zaheer is the main/only threat and even though he remains a canny operator, even he is not the bowler he once was.

I actually expect a evenly matches series on the whole, but with the scoreline at the end reading a comfortable victory due to more exceptional individual performances (probably from Kohli and Ashwin) and the inevitable England collapse in a few innings.

England went into the first test against sri lanka last march with three spinners and two seamers and played two of the UAE tests against pakistan with two spinners in a four man attack so it isn't unprecedented for England to go with a spin dominated attack. Playing to your strengths in spite of the conditions won't work. Neither will playing the conditions and forgetting about the opposition. A balance has to be found and i don't believe that 3 seamers and a spinner + Patel is it. Having said that, I too will be surprised if JDizzle's side is not the one announced tomorrow morning.

Now to get to bed so that my 3.45 alarm isn't quite so painful!

Some observations from the last two series between England and India in India:

A lot has been said about England never having been able to play spin on the sub-continent, but in neither of these series was collapsing against spin a major factor.

2005/06

In the first Test at Nagpur, Kumble and Harbhajan had combined figures of 136-23-361-4. The batsmen who wracked up the runs were Cook, Pietersen and Collingwood - two of those obviously take to the field tomorrow.

In the second Test at Mohali, Harbhajan, Chawla and Kumble had combined figures of 93.5-22-288-11. Plenty of wickets taken by spin, but England still made 300 first time round, and only just over half the wickets fell to spin when three were played. England lost but Bell and Pietersen both made 50s.

In the third Test at Mumbai (a match which England won off the back of Udal on the final day), the Indian spinners (Kumble and Harbhajan) had combined figures of 119.2-33-262-10.

2008/09

In the first Test at Chennai, Harbhajan, Mishra, Yuvraj and Sehwag had combined figures of 144-15-428-10. Cook and Prior made 50s.

In the second Test at Mohali, Harbhajan, Mishra and Yuvraj combined for 69.5-7-204-6. Pietersen made a ton and Cook a 50.


So, on the last two tours India's spinners have done very little out of ordinary, and England look to have played them pretty well. Just an observation, but cements my view that recent issues are almost entirely mental, rooting from a couple of poor displays early on on the UAE trip.

quite simply, opposition spinners have hardly ever done well in India. India play spin too well for that. As such I think it would be daft of England to pick Panesar alongside Swann. Last winter whenever we played both we lost (not entirely their fault but at least in the first test against SL part of the problem was IMO that when the seamers came off on day one our attack looked toothless). We won our only test by sticking to our usual three seamers, one spinner and making use of Patel as a second spinner option. Whether Patel can be as effective in India time will tell, but to my eyes England look much much more menacing with three seamers.

I suspect also if England were seriously considering playing two spinners as their frontline strategy they would have picked Tredwell in the squad and less than five seamers (six now with Meaker). Also surely they'd have played the two spinners in at least one of the warm-ups?

(early) morning all. India have won the toss and unsurprisingly bat first. Pitch is dry apparently, expected to assist the spinners later on, so vital that England bowl India out reasonably cheaply first time up. Teams very much as expected. India pick Yuvraj Singh at n°6, while England go with the three seamers (Bresnan, Broad and Anderson) and Patel at 6.

is it on-- i cant bleeding sleep- getting on a plane soon. so might as well watch it

positive signs for England early on, two huge slices of luck for India with Gambhir inside-edging just past his leg stump and Sehwag aiming an airy drive at one which only just misses his off stump. Broad hitting high 80s pace-wise too which is good to see.

On the negative side, this looks a lovely pitch for batting, it's looking like a great toss to win...

india are smashing it now- going at a one day rate!!

i hate all this no drs business, india move in to the 21st century!

Enjoy your trip mysti.

Things have slowed down now. It's only 3.88 rpo now.

Indian captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni suggested that first test pitch wasn't worth a 2nd look. He added that pitches that offers only low bounce and slow turn doesn't make for exciting test match. He also suggests that the ICC are inconsistent when they don't have a problem with a pitch that offers plenty of seam and swing from the first day and takes issue when the ball does something for the spinner on day one. It is an utterly stupid position, perhaps a colonial legacy that they have to give up?
A pitch with bounce and turn would make the game that much more interesting. Good batsmen can score runs, both spinners and seamers would come into the frame. Well done MS Dhoni, say it, again and again. The Idiots might understand it one day. You are the Indian captain, please use your position to speak out against the obnoxious pitches on which they play some of the Ranji matches as well.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/592164.html