British and Irish Lions Watch 2012-13

First topic message reminder :

This thread started many months back and has been a gradual examination of who is picking who for the impending Lions Tour.

Now the Six Nations is over and all we have left to judge is the HEC and the various national leagues.

Love the description for Jamie Roberts and BOD inclusion - they played the full 80 minutes.

Mickado wrote:"Team of the week", more like "my most favourite team that happened to play last week". BOD was nowhere near Lions form last week.

Looks Like POC is pretty much ruling himself out of the reckoning for the Lions btw lads...

It was his first game back. I thought he looked very sharp. He has also droped a few pounds and looks to be in great shape. Id say he his gearing up for a lions swansong. Unless he is injured BOD will travel.

Dont rule POC out either. Grey is the only standout lock at the moment and POCs injury comeback time is as always being overstated. Sometimes no playing at all is looked at more favourably than playing below par as seems to be the case for a few of the lock contenders.

Anyone know if any player has played in 4 lions test series? If Drico is picked for one test it will be his 4th series.

Didn't McBride go on 5?

In those days with no world cup the lions tours were every 3 years mind.

To be honest though I'm sure he'd rather go on 1 tour only and win then 4 tours and lose them all.

Shame about POC...

But in the second rows we have some very interesting options indeed..hopefully being with the Lions will bring the best out of Gray again...and i think Launchbury simply MUST tour if he keeps this standard of performance going.

Kvesic will be in Argentina with England in the summer trying to make the 7 spot his i would think. There are more settled international 7's in the other nations....like Rennie, Warbs etc if they can stay fit and find form.

Think Grey really has to pick up his form... he's been very quiet for a long time now. If he continues his season form I don't think he'll tour.

Lock is an area of relative strength. Players like Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Jones, Grey, O'Connell and even Hamilton has claims.

GunsGerms I wouldn't say Gray is a stand out lock at all.

Playing for the bottom side in England is not helping his Lion's prospects.

Mate i would make an exception for Gray...try to get his form up as i think hes that good hes worth it.

For me...him and Launchbury (yes i rate him exceptionally highly) are the two stand out Second Rows in the whole of the British Nations...and i hope we get to see both of them at their peak..in the 6n ready to dish it out to the Aussies!.

Donnacha Ryan is going to be starting in the 6nations (injury permitting), I think he could make a good case for himself.

Mickado wrote:Donnacha Ryan is going to be starting in the 6nations (injury permitting), I think he could make a good case for himself.

He was also Ireland's best player by a mile in the Summer tour and won MotM against the Pumas. He has been comfortably Munster's best player for a while and is up there with Healy for Ireland's best player

Well then hopefully we'll have a world class group of second rows to choose from...

I think Mike McCarthy of Ireland could make a solid claim this Six Nations as a Lions contender. He impressed me during the AIs, especially when he put Etzebeth on his a**e.

bluestonevedder wrote:I think Mike McCarthy of Ireland could make a solid claim this Six Nations as a Lions contender. He impressed me during the AIs, especially when he put Etzebeth on his a**e.

Yeah that was a Massive hit.
He is moving to Leinster next year too which is great for us even if it is stealing him away from Connacht.

Not sure he will be good enough to get on the Lions plane but he is only a few injuries away I guess and he will definitely be starting the 6Nations for us without a doubt

Richie Gray is already on the plane. They have already sized up his suits and packed his bags. He is practically a certainty. Yes he made the horrendous decision of joining Sale but the only thing that can stop him now is injury. Why? Because he is Scotlands best player and there cant be a tour without at least a couple of Scots. In any case despite a slump in form he is still a better player than most other options.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Mickado wrote:Donnacha Ryan is going to be starting in the 6nations (injury permitting), I think he could make a good case for himself.

He was also Ireland's best player by a mile in the Summer tour and won MotM against the Pumas. He has been comfortably Munster's best player for a while and is up there with Healy for Ireland's best player

I think Ryan is fairly overrated. Yes he has a lot of dog in him, he will give 110% every time but he has been very very poor in the lineout for Ireland. You barely see Grey or Poc ever lose a lineout.

Pete, you reckon McCarthy and Ryan will be your starting second rows?

Is he Scotland's best player really?

I wouldn't say so. I would say the player who got picked as captain in the AIs and plays in a half decent club side is their best player but that's just bias surely?

Gray might be on the plane but he might not start.

Launchbury and Parling who do play for decent club sides should be there too if they keep up their AIs form.

bluestonevedder wrote:I think Mike McCarthy of Ireland could make a solid claim this Six Nations as a Lions contender. He impressed me during the AIs, especially when he put Etzebeth on his a**e.

He is actually quite good but very limited International experience for a 31 year old. He probably will be involved in the 6n though.

beshocked wrote:Is he Scotland's best player really?

I wouldn't say so. I would say the player who got picked as captain in the AIs and plays in a half decent club side is their best player but that's just bias surely?

Gray might be on the plane but he might not start.

Launchbury and Parling who do play for decent club sides should be there too if they keep up their AIs form.

You must be a Sarries fan?

Can players who have retired from international duty be picked? Nathan Hines anyone?

I think anyone can be selected...hence why people who suggesting Johnny...not sure if theres many i would select who are retired however, who is better than a current international?

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:Is he Scotland's best player really?

I wouldn't say so. I would say the player who got picked as captain in the AIs and plays in a half decent club side is their best player but that's just bias surely?

Gray might be on the plane but he might not start.

Launchbury and Parling who do play for decent club sides should be there too if they keep up their AIs form.

You must be a Sarries fan?

Indeed.

A question from the Good Guys in all this: If the Lions were focussed on attacking our lineout, which 4,5,6 would they pick? Which Hooker (in contention) is the best thrower?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think anyone can be selected...hence why people who suggesting Johnny...not sure if theres many i would select who are retired however, who is better than a current international?

I think if Hines made himself available for Scotland selection he would march into the 1st XV unopposed. His form for Clermont has been sensational.

I think a lot of people are championing Hines for the Lions. His form for Clermont is certainly pretty good, and could be the enforcer that's needed.

You're right about Mcarthy. His age is a real downside, but some players are like a fine wine!

Rory Best will most likely start at Hooker

GeordieFalcon wrote:Rory Best will most likely start at Hooker

Thanks Geordie.

booma, I think even their number 10 could contest out lineouts.... depends if we find new locks for the games, along with a front row.. hell what am I talking about? This is the wallabies, we thrive on not having a front 5 to speak of!!

Are you wondering about our lineout as well Oz? Everyone talks about scrums and tight play, but im comfortable with Horwill, Douglas, Timani on that front. I'm sitting quietly wondering - with Sharpe gone, who's going to catch the f'ball?!?!

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Mickado wrote:Donnacha Ryan is going to be starting in the 6nations (injury permitting), I think he could make a good case for himself.

He was also Ireland's best player by a mile in the Summer tour and won MotM against the Pumas. He has been comfortably Munster's best player for a while and is up there with Healy for Ireland's best player

I think Ryan is fairly overrated. Yes he has a lot of dog in him, he will give 110% every time but he has been very very poor in the lineout for Ireland. You barely see Grey or Poc ever lose a lineout.

You rarely see Grey steal an opposition lineout which is amazing considering his height advantage. He will win all their own ball, but what makes POC special is his ability to steal opposition lineout.

Ryan had a couple of steals in the AIs, so I'm not sure what your talking about here. There were a couple of serious overthrows from the hookers though.

Sharpe did well this year, better I think then a few years ago, but I've never felt that sure of our lineouts. Probably cause we play the boks so often. And Moore and Cannon I trusted throw in accuracys, but not so sure about Polota-Nau's, and none of them are Phil Kearns!!

Timani's been tried out as a flanker cause he's a lump, so not sure about him being used in the lineouts, at the moment he has the size but not seemingly the fight for a lock.

To be honest I have little confidence in our front 5, cept a few seasons back when the two Bens were firing and pushing people back, but I have great faith, restored now, in the team spirit of the wallabies.

Am looking forward to this year's games.

Everyone always says that AUS have a bad front five and the lions will smash them upfront...

but can any home nations team say they smashed AUS up front recently????

AUS rolls with the punches and do well with the limited players they have in that area.

They get decent results each year with SA & NZ who are always up there with the very best in tight forwards play so they do not have a bad pack.

fa0019 wrote:Everyone always says that AUS have a bad front five and the lions will smash them upfront...

but can any home nations team say they smashed AUS up front recently????

AUS rolls with the punches and do well with the limited players they have in that area.

They get decent results each year with SA & NZ who are always up there with the very best in tight forwards play so they do not have a bad pack.

Yes actually Ireland distroyed Australia up front the last time the two sides met.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Mickado wrote:Donnacha Ryan is going to be starting in the 6nations (injury permitting), I think he could make a good case for himself.

He was also Ireland's best player by a mile in the Summer tour and won MotM against the Pumas. He has been comfortably Munster's best player for a while and is up there with Healy for Ireland's best player

I think Ryan is fairly overrated. Yes he has a lot of dog in him, he will give 110% every time but he has been very very poor in the lineout for Ireland. You barely see Grey or Poc ever lose a lineout.

You rarely see Grey steal an opposition lineout which is amazing considering his height advantage. He will win all their own ball, but what makes POC special is his ability to steal opposition lineout.

Ryan had a couple of steals in the AIs, so I'm not sure what your talking about here. There were a couple of serious overthrows from the hookers though.

Gray stole / spoiled 5 opponent Lineouts in the 6N. 1 a game? Thats not a bad record. He also won 100% of line out ball thrown at him.

Moving to Sale was a bad move. If Leinster are looking for a Lock I really hope Gray leaves Sale and joins up.

Furthermore Scotland destroyed the Wallaby pack and neutralized Pocock very effectively the last time the sides met. Only Wales have seemed to struggle up front against the Wallabies.

OzT wrote:Sharpe did well this year, better I think then a few years ago, but I've never felt that sure of our lineouts. Probably cause we play the boks so often. And Moore and Cannon I trusted throw in accuracys, but not so sure about Polota-Nau's, and none of them are Phil Kearns!!

Timani's been tried out as a flanker cause he's a lump, so not sure about him being used in the lineouts, at the moment he has the size but not seemingly the fight for a lock.

To be honest I have little confidence in our front 5, cept a few seasons back when the two Bens were firing and pushing people back, but I have great faith, restored now, in the team spirit of the wallabies.

Am looking forward to this year's games.

I am as well Oz. tough but possible. We seem to have a pack where in 10 games, 5 will be pretty good - 3 alright - 2 are shockers. It never allows you feel confident, but it is good fun. I remember following the good cricket team and it became joyless. When you risk shattering disappointment, the good days are better as a result.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Mickado wrote:Donnacha Ryan is going to be starting in the 6nations (injury permitting), I think he could make a good case for himself.

He was also Ireland's best player by a mile in the Summer tour and won MotM against the Pumas. He has been comfortably Munster's best player for a while and is up there with Healy for Ireland's best player

I think Ryan is fairly overrated. Yes he has a lot of dog in him, he will give 110% every time but he has been very very poor in the lineout for Ireland. You barely see Grey or Poc ever lose a lineout.

You rarely see Grey steal an opposition lineout which is amazing considering his height advantage. He will win all their own ball, but what makes POC special is his ability to steal opposition lineout.

Ryan had a couple of steals in the AIs, so I'm not sure what your talking about here. There were a couple of serious overthrows from the hookers though.

Gray stole / spoiled 5 opponent Lineouts in the 6N. 1 a game? Thats not a bad record. He also won 100% of line out ball thrown at him.

Moving to Sale was a bad move. If Leinster are looking for a Lock I really hope Gray leaves Sale and joins up.

Furthermore Scotland destroyed the Wallaby pack and neutralized Pocock very effectively the last time the sides met. Only Wales have seemed to struggle up front against the Wallabies.

Against Australia (which Scotland won).
Australia 100%. Scotland 54.5%.
Scotland 89.5%. Tonga 66.7%. (Kellock claimed 13 out of the 17 Scotland threw).
Scotland 86.7%. SA 100%
Scotland 73.3%. NZ 87.5%. (Gray won 3 and stole 1).

Ireland (6Ns). 71.4%. Scotland 76.9%. (Ryan won 2 and stole 2. Gray won 5 didn't steal any).

Sin é wrote:
Against Australia (which Scotland won).
Australia 100%. Scotland 54.5%.
Scotland 89.5%. Tonga 66.7%. (Kellock claimed 13 out of the 17 Scotland threw).
Scotland 86.7%. SA 100%
Scotland 73.3%. NZ 87.5%. (Gray won 3 and stole 1).

Ireland (6Ns). 71.4%. Scotland 76.9%. (Ryan won 2 and stole 2. Gray won 5 didn't steal any).

Nice "selective" use of stats....

The stats don't really show anything. More often than not Gray has played with Kellock, who Scotland put in the air more often than not to contest the opposition lineout. Even when Gray has played with Hamilton, Scotland have either not contested the lineout (I hate that we do that so often) or put Brown in the air, as he's lighter and therefore easier to shift and lift.

I agree though that POC is the superior lineout player to Gray. Absolutely no doubt about that. The problem with POC though is that Gatland needs to be 100% sure that he's fully fit. I for one hope he is.

Ryan is a good old fashioned combative player who I rate highly. But I don't think his all round game is as strong as Richie Gray's, although on recent form Gray has to improve to be considered.

I just picked Scotland's last couple of games (and Australia because that is who the Lions will be playing against).

I picked the Ireland v Scotland game because its Ryan & Gray head-to-head.

Sin é wrote:I just picked Scotland's last couple of games (and Australia because that is who the Lions will be playing against).

I picked the Ireland v Scotland game because its Ryan & Gray head-to-head.

It's ok I get why you did it

however It has to be said that Almost every position in the pack with the exception of hooker will be hotly contested over the next few months.

There is no doubt that Gray is great in the loose, but it really annoys me that he (or Scotland - I don't know what happens with Sale) doesn't compete more to win opposition lineout. Sticking him in front of a defensive lineout should be enough to put any of the opposition off with his height advantage!

I think Ryan is a very good all-rounder - wouldn't have the pace of Gray though.

bluestonevedder wrote:Pete, you reckon McCarthy and Ryan will be your starting second rows?

My first choice lock pairing would be Gray and Hines personally. Probably that new English lad on the bench or Ryan. i don't think McCarthy will/should make the squad I do think Ryan should be near enough to the bench/first team

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Pete, you reckon McCarthy and Ryan will be your starting second rows?

My first choice lock pairing would be Gray and Hines personally. Probably that new English lad on the bench or Ryan. i don't think McCarthy will/should make the squad I do think Ryan should be near enough to the bench/first team

Sorry Pete, I meant for Ireland! Just realised I'd made this comment on the B&I Lions thread!

Lifting can be an issue with such big guys and its one thing which potentially did hamper Simon Shaw's career when it became legit. Good thing Shaw was so good at everything else.

What I am trying to say is that its not easy to get Gray high enough up in the air to contest opposition line outs compared to, say, Croft.

Getting Gray to lift Brown on opposition ball might be an interesting tactic though

bluestonevedder wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Pete, you reckon McCarthy and Ryan will be your starting second rows?

My first choice lock pairing would be Gray and Hines personally. Probably that new English lad on the bench or Ryan. i don't think McCarthy will/should make the squad I do think Ryan should be near enough to the bench/first team

Sorry Pete, I meant for Ireland! Just realised I'd made this comment on the B&I Lions thread!

No worries

Yeah for Ireland I'd go

4: McCarthy
5: Ryan
18: Henderson/DOC (if Tuohy is out)

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Pete, you reckon McCarthy and Ryan will be your starting second rows?

My first choice lock pairing would be Gray and Hines personally. Probably that new English lad on the bench or Ryan. i don't think McCarthy will/should make the squad I do think Ryan should be near enough to the bench/first team

Sorry Pete, I meant for Ireland! Just realised I'd made this comment on the B&I Lions thread!

No worries

Yeah for Ireland I'd go

4: McCarthy
5: Ryan
18: Henderson/DOC (if Tuohy is out)

I do like that lock pairing- a lot of grunt and both have good motors. Saying that, I also like Dan Tuohy though. Who's Henderson? Is he the young Ulster lad, occasionally plays on the flank?

bluestonevedder wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Pete, you reckon McCarthy and Ryan will be your starting second rows?

My first choice lock pairing would be Gray and Hines personally. Probably that new English lad on the bench or Ryan. i don't think McCarthy will/should make the squad I do think Ryan should be near enough to the bench/first team

Sorry Pete, I meant for Ireland! Just realised I'd made this comment on the B&I Lions thread!

B&I Lions thread. Irish thread. Same thing no?

as in the dirt trackers/water boys???? Sure

fa0019 wrote:as in the dirt trackers/water boys???? Sure

I think we're in charge of carrying the bags so far