Greatest lightheavyweight of all time

First topic message reminder :

Alright, everybody ?

Each sporting section at 606v2 is submitting a poll, which is going to be placed at various locations in cyberspace.

To get away from the usual types of debate I thought it might be interesting to find out whom we believe to have been the greatest in that most competitive, yet unsung of divisions, the lightheayweight.

I've selected candidates, pre and post war, for you to mull over, so let the debating and voting begin :

The Mighty Atom wrote:I'm not going to speculate too much with regards to someone like Jones, his best wins at the weight fall well short of many others in the division so i'm not going to rank higher than those. Partly dominating a weak era should be taken into consideration.

It is taken into consideration which is one of the primary reasons Jones is held lower than Charles. I dont argue this. You cant make a case for Jones on record.

But I dont believe you are only as good as your best win. Clearly in cases when one fighter is way above the competition this isnt true. Im the oppsoite in terms of specualtion because trying gauge where someone like Jones fits in is a much more open debate. The book is closed with Charles. His record says it all so there isnt anything to debate really.

I find it more interesting speculating on someone like Jones whos talent I think far outstrips the competition he was in and who is trickier to place.

What is greatness/the greatest at the end of the day? If its confined to records then its never going to paint the reality. The record only proves what you did in your own era and can seldom be extended to other eras.

Greatness for me has to be proven, all well and good speculating but without the wins to back it up it he possibly scrapes 10th place in the 175lb rankings for me. There are too many cases of wasted talent with Conteh being a prime example, he looked fantastic for large parts of his career, stepped up in class then seemed to lack motivation. It's all well and good saying Jones could do this or could do that but he didn't.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Greatness for me has to be proven, all well and good speculating but without the wins to back it up it he possibly scrapes 10th place in the 175lb rankings for me. There are too many cases of wasted talent with Conteh being a prime example, he looked fantastic for large parts of his career, stepped up in class then seemed to lack motivation. It's all well and good saying Jones could do this or could do that but he didn't.

Im not going to argue whether Jones is greater than Charles because if we are using the respective records as the primary judge then there is no argument really.

But what would you have Jones do? You often say he needed to prove greatness. For me he did. Being considered the best fighter on the planet while at lightheavy would be pretty extraordinary for someone not great. You will no doubt say Michalswecki again but under your criteria Michalswecki doesnt add much that Jones doesnt have as he isnt a great. The guy was a solid fighter but other than a couple of wins that Jones has himself he was fighting WBO ranked Euro fighters most of his career. Closer to Ottke than Jones. Had Jones beat him he would have been dismissed readily. No comparison.

There was an abscence of all time great fighters at lightheavy when Jones was there. But I wouldnt write Jones off on that basis as he was clearly a class above and looking at what he did actually do I think theres valid grounds for considering him a great regardless of era. You might dismiss this as speculation but putting records aside for a second what kind of chances do you give him against the others on the list?

Is he to be dismissed completely on grounds of having not having wins as big or do you give him small/medium/good chance?

He may beat Fitzsimmons or Langford but in no way is he greater than either other than that I give him a small chance of beating the others, he was only considered the best at Light Heavyweight because of boxing politics. DM had effectively cleaned up the division, was the unified champion and beat the guy many considered the rightful lineal champion in Hill but on the arrival of Jones to the divsion was stripped of two titles for very spurrious reasons. A win over DM doesn't add a huge amount record wise but it would at least have cemented his place at the top of the division and the difference between there level of opposition was minimal to be honest.