England team for SA Northern Barbarians

Apologies if it's been already posted:

15 Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
14 Christian Wade (London Wasps)
13 Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
12 Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
11 Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
10 Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
9 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
1 Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
2 Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
3 Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
4 Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
5 George Robson (capt, Harlequins)
6 Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
7 Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)

Replacements
16 Joe Gray (Harlequins)
17 Rupert Harden (Gloucester Rugby)
18 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
19 James Haskell (Otago Highlanders)
20 Karl Dickson (Harlequins)
21 David Strettle (Saracens)
22 Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Suggest to me for the 3rd test: Dave Strettle will be replaced, Waldrom to start.

P.S I am a massive fan of Jonny May so over the moon!

WHY IS ALLEN AT 13 AGAIN?

also i dont see how you can extrapolate that strettle will be axed from this.

had he been in the starting XV then yes axed.

morgan clearly has been axed.

guys on the dirt tracker bench are in better position than the starting XV are in terms of test selection.

the only exception to this might be if coaches are having a look at someone and then you will know because they'll be subbed at half time.

this suggests to me that walrom and care will start the 3rd test, thats good.

also, maybe goode will come in at full back and foden will take strettles place on the wing.

tri

I think its the fact goode hasnt been selected at all for the ba bas game that indicates he may start and strettle is the man likely to make way.

Triangulation wrote:also i dont see how you can extrapolate that strettle will be axed from this.

had he been in the starting XV then yes axed.

morgan clearly has been axed.

guys on the dirt tracker bench are in better position than the starting XV are in terms of test selection.

the only exception to this might be if coaches are having a look at someone and then you will know because they'll be subbed at half time.

Yes may have been my wishful thinking on my behalf about Strettle I admit! I just have a feeling in my gut, but then again I had a feeling that England would have won a test yet..........

Also possible that Palmer may oust Botha for the starting slot in T3. With Robshaw out do we expect Haskell to come straight in at 7?

Lot of local Gloucester interest there, including old boy Allen, and new boy Morgan, May, Harnden. Abendanon is from box, near Stroud.

Can't believe Abendanon is starting, it makes it look like he is actually close to a call up and that is a very unsettling thought indeed.

Couple of things:

1)Why is Allen at 13 again? He was the better of the two centres in the first mid week game so let him play his proper position!
2)Great to see Tom Youngs starting, he really is a powerful bullocking hooker and England really need one of those. Him starting rules him out of T3 though which is disappointing just hope Gray replaces Mears instead.
3)Excellent, seems that Care will start the test. Good logic there Lancaster actually selecting the second best 9 to replace the best 9 for once instead of the 3rd best 9 somehow jumping ahead in the pecking order.
4)Botha dropped down, possibly good but Palmer likely to start, no so good.

One thing that leaps out at me and forgive me if this is a tad over zealous is SL picking on form (mostly) and dropping players down or into the mid-week team to chivy them up a bit (presumably).

This gives me confidence in the regime, now if only we could learnt to attack and get our big men over the gain line, support and quick ball!

formerly known as Sam wrote:Can't believe Abendanon is starting, it makes it look like he is actually close to a call up and that is a very unsettling thought indeed.

Couple of things:

1)Why is Allen at 13 again? He was the better of the two centres in the first mid week game so let him play his proper position!
2)Great to see Tom Youngs starting, he really is a powerful bullocking hooker and England really need one of those. Him starting rules him out of T3 though which is disappointing just hope Gray replaces Mears instead.
3)Excellent, seems that Care will start the test. Good logic there Lancaster actually selecting the second best 9 to replace the best 9 for once instead of the 3rd best 9 somehow jumping ahead in the pecking order.
4)Botha dropped down, possibly good but Palmer likely to start, no so good.

I take issue with 4 Sam. Palmer is an excellent player who should have had more England caps by now than he has. He does all the core functions well and can actually catch and pass which is rare in an England back let alone in a forward. He was on while we were doing better in T2.

Lookingt at the team it looks as if Waldrom, Care, and Goode will be in the test side wich will atleast give us some hope of a win on saturday.

Yeah, looks to me like inferences for the 3rd test are a backrow of Johnson, Haskell & Waldrom (Dowson on the bench?). Palmer starting ahead of Botha, Care to start at SH and Goode starting at FB with Foden back to the wing in place of Strettle.

Is Barritt's eye definitely going to be OK for the weekend? If so I reckon Joseph drops to the bench.

When did Jonny May get called up? For Lowe? Must have missed the announcement.

I would be happy if it was Haskell who came in for Robshaw. Of the possible replacements he's the one who will most compensate for the loss of Robshaw's physicality. Glad to see that Care starts the test as well.

thomh wrote:When did Jonny May get called up? For Lowe? Must have missed the announcement.

Yeah, called up for Lowe, joined the team Friday I think.

Ouch, it looks like Ben Morgan just doesnt have the fitness for a SH tour. I thought he was one of englands stand out players in the 6 nations.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Can't believe Abendanon is starting, it makes it look like he is actually close to a call up and that is a very unsettling thought indeed.

Surely this is expected. What is your issue? He is obviously below Foden, Brown and Goode in the pecking order, and rightly so. Olly Morgan will be there or there abouts as well when he's fit. The only person who could feel aggrieved is Rob Miller but given that Bendy was in SA already it's a pragmatic selection. He looked really good when he came on last week, hitting the line at pace and making a lot of yards. He had a great season for Bath, linking up well with Tom Biggs from deep. His defensive frailties are a lot less severe than they were in the past and his decision making has improved as he has matured into a relatively senior player in the Bath squad. I expect him to do well in this game.

I expect he will do well in this game Jeffwinger, doesn't mean I'd trust him at a higher level than this though. Now Johnny May is in the position Abendanon was a few years ago, I'd back his potential over the pacey journeyman Abendanon.

I take issue with 4 Sam. Palmer is an excellent player who should have had more England caps by now than he has. He does all the core functions well and can actually catch and pass which is rare in an England back let alone in a forward. He was on while we were doing better in T2.

Tri, Palmer does all the core functions well but doesn't really excell at anything. There's no area of play where you'd point at Palmer and say "he'll dominate there". I'd also argue that he deserves more caps, he doesn't, before the move to France he was far to average. The move to Stade has really improved him physically and that's reflected in his international status. Even so he's nothing more than a stop gap and isn't going to provide the grunt England desperately need.

Jonny May is not a fullback. I'll say this now before he makes an error or two and everyone jumps on his back and sends him to the scrapheap. He has the raw materials to become a very good fullback given some good coaching, but at this stage he is only suitable to play on the wing in international rugby. He will do some wonderful things from 15, but will also do some very silly things. Long term it may be his position, but not yet. So if he comes on at fullback, please remember this and allow for a few slip ups.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I expect he will do well in this game Jeffwinger, doesn't mean I'd trust him at a higher level than this though. Now Johnny May is in the position Abendanon was a few years ago, I'd back his potential over the pacey journeyman Abendanon.

I take issue with 4 Sam. Palmer is an excellent player who should have had more England caps by now than he has. He does all the core functions well and can actually catch and pass which is rare in an England back let alone in a forward. He was on while we were doing better in T2.

Tri, Palmer does all the core functions well but doesn't really excell at anything. There's no area of play where you'd point at Palmer and say "he'll dominate there". I'd also argue that he deserves more caps, he doesn't, before the move to France he was far to average. The move to Stade has really improved him physically and that's reflected in his international status. Even so he's nothing more than a stop gap and isn't going to provide the grunt England desperately need.

40 yds carrying in total across two tests for all 3 locks involved just doesn't cut the mustard at international level - England are missing a vital tool in the armoury, if you ask me

flankertye wrote:WHY IS ALLEN AT 13 AGAIN?

Personally I don't understand why Allen is not a starter. Admittedly I have not seen a huge amound of him but from what I have seen he is clearly the most creative of Englands options at 12. He plays with his head up, has good hands, good gas and has an eye for a try. This obsession with Tuilagi, who agreed is a lump, but in reality is a very limited player is a mystery to me. The series is over so on Saturday I would play Flood, Allen, Joseph as the midfield. Joseph also looks like he may have something and deserves another run in the absence of real options.

Jeffwinger this isn't international level though is it. This is a make shift team from the SA equivelent of the Championship. He should be perfectly fine at this level. It would probably be good for his development.

Dragonbreath, Manu has good pace, a real eye for a gap and the power to get the backline moving even under extreme pressure. We saw in the third test that Joseph struggled to make any head way against JDV and that he is a bit green for a full test. Manu is one of the best OCs in Europe at only 21 he'll continue to develop and be exceptional, Joseph will also be exceptional but isn't at the minute.

dragonbreath wrote:

flankertye wrote:WHY IS ALLEN AT 13 AGAIN?

Personally I don't understand why Allen is not a starter. Admittedly I have not seen a huge amound of him but from what I have seen he is clearly the most creative of Englands options at 12. He plays with his head up, has good hands, good gas and has an eye for a try. This obsession with Tuilagi, who agreed is a lump, but in reality is a very limited player is a mystery to me. The series is over so on Saturday I would play Flood, Allen, Joseph as the midfield. Joseph also looks like he may have something and deserves another run in the absence of real options.

I think having a lump at 12 or 13 is a good thing, but I too am shocked that Allen isn't even being allowed the chance to play in position in the midweekers. Either the coaches think you NEED a Nonu esque 12, which just isn't true and is only really in vogue because of Nonu and Roberts who are both freakish in that they are good footballers for their physique and are actually used well in a gameplan based around them. Or they are trying a Quins style gameplan but if they are doing that it's not working

If barrits fit i wouldn't be surprised to see Joseph on the wing for the third test....Goode on the bench, if barrit isn't fit then probably same centres as last time with goode at FB and Daddy Saturday on the wing.

Predicted backs for final test:

9.Care
10.Flood
11.Monye
12.Barritt
13.Manu
14.Ashton
15.Foden

Bench: 20.Dickson, 21.Goode, 22.Joseph

No way will Farrell be totally dropped

Sadly that is true CJ. Which is a shame because he really isn't looking the part on this tour. He is the kind of player that would kick on from being dropped as well.

Great little run from Youngs there, showing his centre experience.

JTH really didn't look like he was in from the side to me, he was very close to being tipped on his head though...

Wade really needs to work on his positioning, nearly cost us there.

Cumbrian wrote:JTH really didn't look like he was in from the side to me, he was very close to being tipped on his head though...

+1

Arhg, come on ref, he was tackled without the ball!!

Kick an chase, seriously lads? Let's try and show some blooming invention and attacking intent!

I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but is are SA Baa Baa's sides allergic to grass?

This is what playing on the Moon is going to be like.

Monye woth a dumb high rackle, and he knows ir.

Somebody has peed Fearns off! Some serious juddering hits in!

Try

A better start from Fearns, he's still working his way back to full-fitness though.

England are rightly punished for some aimless and stupid kicking.

10-3

my bad!

Oof, what a soft try. Three tacklers had him and they all let go ffs.

Just like last week, this mid week side cannot tackle.

The first team are gonna get stuffed now aren't they with even robshaw and youngs gone, two of the best players last week.

Wouldn't be surprised if they lose this today.

Maybe we'll actually try and play a bit now?

Great work there, fantastic offload for the try. This is why we should've brought someone with a but of invention like Burns and not someone living in 2003 like Hodgson.

Fearns carrying really well too!

Nice play by Wade there

Nicely worked comeback. 10-10.

No-one's stopping Morgan from there!

Ok, much, much better from the lads. Why wait for a try though?

sugarNspikes wrote:I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but is are SA Baa Baa's sides allergic to grass?

This is what playing on the Moon is going to be like.

It doesn't rain in winter and frosts kill the grass. There is no money for all the watering and upkeep that needs to be done to have a decent pitch in the smaller towns. Our main pitches on the highveld used to be like this in the old days.

lammergeier wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but is are SA Baa Baa's sides allergic to grass?

This is what playing on the Moon is going to be like.

It doesn't rain in winter and frosts kill the grass. There is no money for all the watering and upkeep that needs to be done to have a decent pitch in the smaller towns. Our main pitches on the highveld used to be like this in the old days.

I wasn't having a go, mate. It's just odd seeing it from our point of view. Nice to have a change from a mudbath to be honest (and see if some of our flyers do well on a hard pitch)

Good work by Wade leading to Abendanon try, made sure he committed a number of defenders with a couple of tricks before giving the delayed pass and putting his outside man in. He just needs to work on his positional defence.