Robshaw and the England backrow

First topic message reminder :

Whilst I wouldn't say Robshaw is one of the great natural talents of his generation, he is a very decent rugby player and his strong mentality and natural leadership skills mean he is likely to be a fixture for England up until the next WC. He reminds me of Tom Rees (although maybe not quite with the same level of ability) and England are lucky to have him.

If he is a fixture then it is probably at 7, which seems to be where he and his coaches think he should play. Morgan looks first choice at 8 at present, and if this doesn't change it means England have a lot of good backrow forwards competing for one starting place (whether you think Robshaw is a 6 or a 7):

Croft, Wood, Haskell, Clark, Fearns, Johnson, Dowson, Gibson, Kvesic, Craig (who I think can do a Croft impression at the line-out but with more physical presence), Launchbury, Welch, and Lawes. Scaysbrook, Seymour and Saull also have their admirers. And of course if Armitage wants to come back to England he can be added to the list.

Then there are other emerging players like Nutley, Sisi, Vunipola, Jones (who I think is a fine prospect who gets little press), Wray and Harrison. Further back, but possibilities for 2015, are players like Itoje and Clifford.

A few years back England was struggling for backrows, now the challenge is finding the right combination. There is going to be a lot of competition for places.

To be fair to Farrell I don't think anyone has ever seen him attempt to play an open, attacking game for either Saracens or England, so how can we say he is incapable of it?

This is all getting a little off topic no?

jeffwinger wrote:To be fair to Farrell I don't think anyone has ever seen him attempt to play an open, attacking game for either Saracens or England, so how can we say he is incapable of it?

Thats a very fair point....I'd never seen Matt Stevens play wing but assume he'd be pretty bad at it.

If somebody has never displayed an attribute you surely have to assume they do not possess it??

I was saying that slightly tongue in cheek, but if the game plan is for him to kick and defend, he may just be following team orders, especially with Sarries. His passing isn't at all bad.

Hard to judge tone on a blog lol...

I don't think his passing is bad Jeff it's more how he passes. As somebody said he just shifts it rather than taking it up to line. Looking at some of our attacking play yesterday I actually think Farrell is incapable of playing attacking rugby rather than any kind of set game plan.

His passing isn't at all bad.

It's slow is the problem. Technically he pulls the ball back before passing to generate the pace and doesn't have a great deal of natural awareness so takes time to access what's going on. All that forces him to stand deeper in order to move the ball wide, his inability to tie the defence in is an odd one and best highlighted when he butchered the two on one vs the Baabaas. I'm not sure if it's a young player lacking a bit of confidence in that area of the game or whether he just doesn't have the ability as standing deep to move the ball is an RL staple (Farrell's back ground is heavilly RL).

Farrell has played in an alternative system to the Saracens one, so saying he hasn't had the opportunity to express his passing ability isn't particularly accurate.

I refer back to a previous debate I had with Beshocked regarding Farrell before he played in the 6N. At the JWC he played a game or two at FH but was consistently displaced by George Ford for precisely the same criticisms that he's receiving now. His passing was poor when attacking the line, and as such he would often either pass behind the man or stand deep and negate much of the momentum.

He has a great temperament and kicking game, but needs to work on his distribution and attacking flair before he's ready for England honours in a FH jersey. Unless we want to play with a monster pack and kick the ball SA style, he aint the man for the current flow of rugby style.

Apologies for being so off topic!

Johnson had an excellent game and looks very close to starting in the first Test, excepting Dowson's injury as I think if he's fit Lancaster will still pick 6. Dowson 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan.

I'd like to see a starting backrow for the first test of 6. Johnson 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan 19. Haskell. I think Haskell can come on at either 8 or 7 and do very well in the last 20 minutes or so of a close first test match.

I'd also like to see Fearns get some starting time at 7 in the midweek games to see how he goes.

Won't Hask miss the first test? Or does he get in just before it?

Agree with your line up there though it's exactly what i'd go for. Of course with that backrow we need Parling to be on fire in the lineouts and he was a little sloppy on Sat. Against SA he'll need to be alot better then that and he def can be(i'm thinking of his display for Eng away in Oz).

Definitely couldn't have Youngs on the bench either judging by his throwing Sat (horrible) so I assume it'll be Gray on the bench as he's a lot more secure.

Oh and off topic, I really hope Burns gets a run out mid week. If he takes to the mid week games like Farrel has to Tests then he'll put a nice bit of pressure on him to learn to pass!

Burns is only on standby I believe. The word is that Flood will be fit enough to travel, so he may not go.

Pit your 6.5 against a traditional openside and I feel safe saying you're at a disadvantage. Not having a natural fetcher somewhere in the back row has more often than not cost teams a decisive amount of possession or thwarted too many attacking forays. That effectively works its way into the minds of players and puts a big downer on confidence during the game, having to live off scraps here and there.

The only way to make up for this is to be extra abrasive at the breakdown and sometimes even that is not enough. Would you say England have a sufficiently abrasive back row to be able to consistently live with players in the Pocock/Brussow/Warburton mould from now on? That's a big, big ask and personally I'd favour having a specialist fetcher somewhere in the back row considering the current advent of 7's the game has recently witnessed.

Knowsit17 wrote:Pit your 6.5 against a traditional openside and I feel safe saying you're at a disadvantage. Not having a natural fetcher somewhere in the back row has more often than not cost teams a decisive amount of possession or thwarted too many attacking forays. That effectively works its way into the minds of players and puts a big downer on confidence during the game, having to live off scraps here and there.

The only way to make up for this is to be extra abrasive at the breakdown and sometimes even that is not enough. Would you say England have a sufficiently abrasive back row to be able to consistently live with players in the Pocock/Brussow/Warburton mould from now on? That's a big, big ask and personally I'd favour having a specialist fetcher somewhere in the back row considering the current advent of 7's the game has recently witnessed.

I'd like us to have a world class fetcher, but it's not the end of the world. We've beaten Australia in two of the three games Pocock has played against us. And it is a 2-2 draw with Warburton against England.

Is Warburton in the Pocock/Brussow mould? I don't think so...he's a fantastic 7 but his ground work isn't really his strongest asset.

I'd really like to see Matt Kvesic fill the 7 role in the future, he seems to go well at the breakdown.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is Warburton in the Pocock/Brussow mould? I don't think so...he's a fantastic 7 but his ground work isn't really his strongest asset.

Looks like somebody needs to get educated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0eGPWJ-x0

Hes obviously made turnovers....I just don't think he's in the same league as Pocock/Brussow, which you grouped him in.

yappysnap wrote:Won't Hask miss the first test? Or does he get in just before it?

Agree with your line up there though it's exactly what i'd go for. Of course with that backrow we need Parling to be on fire in the lineouts and he was a little sloppy on Sat. Against SA he'll need to be alot better then that and he def can be(i'm thinking of his display for Eng away in Oz).

Definitely couldn't have Youngs on the bench either judging by his throwing Sat (horrible) so I assume it'll be Gray on the bench as he's a lot more secure.

Super Rugby breaks for the internationals, so Haskell would be available, though if he plays for Highlanders this coming weekend (his extended ban finished the other day) he'd only have a few days training in the new England setup after flying over from NZ.

Robshaw & Johnson do a certain amount of lineout work for their clubs. In 18 AP games Robshaw took 28 of his own lineouts and stole 5. Johnson took 30 and stole 4 in his 22 AP games. Not as regularly looked to as Croft, who usually takes 3/4 a game, but between them they can provide alternatives to take pressure off the locks.

Why isn't he? He definitely came out on top against Brussow in the WC, even if Wales did slip up by a point that day. Pocock you might have more of an argument for.

I don't really care about Warburton tbh, Id rather discuss English rugby.

Make up your mind then, I only mentioned him in passing in my first post. You're the one who prolonged the discussion on the topic of Warburton

Back on topic, as I said earlier England would tend to need an exceptionally abrasive back row to be able to cope with the absence of a natural fetcher. From what I understand they have a more traditional brand of openside coming through, just not ready yet. Because imo you'll need one to be able to negate opposition 7's in future. It doesn't mean you're doomed to fail without one but there's always the danger of it being exploited.

I think Robshaw is becoming a fetcher, slowly but surely, he has put in some class performances at the breakdown. Warbs didn't start as a fetcher, he's learnt it at an international level.

Erm....ok then.

Heard Robshaw has been training as a 7 at Quins for most of the season. His general link play exceeds any other 7 in the NH but he needs work on his ground play to get to that world class level.

Hasn't Robshaw played most of this season at 7 which means he's been getting regular game time there. His ground play will develop with time so that shouldn't be a problem.

Tbh it's difficult to tell before the tests just if we do need a fetcher or not. I hope we'll be ok and with Cole, Robshaw and Hask all solid on the floor we should be able to cover there.

In the future we could always look to playing a fetcher on the bench against teams that field them if we do need one. Bit like Wales with Tupuric

Zander wrote:Hasn't Robshaw played most of this season at 7 which means he's been getting regular game time there. His ground play will develop with time so that shouldn't be a problem.

It was mentioned in interviews that he's always seen himself as a 7 and so have most coaches. He only played at 6 when we had the more experienced and specialist Skinner at 7 and the coach (Deano) had to get him in to the team.

His ground work will improve if he keeps playing 7

Yea look at the start of the season to that turn over at the end of the final.

Warburton was described as a 6.5 at the beginning of his international career. Just something to consider.

I also saw an interview with Brussow about how he and Pocock are similar players; they both follow the ball religiously, and steal/secure all game. He said that McCaw is not the same player as them, as he has a much more balanced game. I have to agree.

I personally don't think Brussow is a similar type of player to Pocock or McCaw....

He isn't a ball carrier and doesn't have raw pace & aggression like the above two.

For me he reminds me more of Neil Back.

He is a opportunist who works very well in the tight and picks his moments... however he also requires a lot of front foot ball and a big pack behind him.
When the Cheetahs came to Cape Town earlier in the season he was pretty much neutralised by a backrow of Carr, Kolisi & Elstadt... all youngsters and neither of them opensides. The Cheetahs & Stormers packs were also pretty neutral so Brussow had an equal platform to play with.

Personally I wouldn't say his form is setting the world on fire and if Burger was fit I'd be very tempted to play a Alberts, Burger & Spies combination.

ENG could play Robshaw at 7 and compete with Brussow if ENG pack can contain the bok pack. If the boks gt a definitive edge you may see Brussow pick the pockets of many a player in the forthcoming tour.

I thought Kolisi is an openside?

Also I've seen Brussow carry pretty well. He isn't amazing in that area, but he is good. I do think he and Pocock are similar players.

Never heard of Pocock being described as having "raw pace". Pocock is a pretty poor carrier also I find, great on the deck though similar to Brussow.

Bruss/Pocock are typical fetchers for me, whilst McCaw excels in most areas of the game. Always find it comical when Pocock is described as the best openside in world rugby but generally get outplayed in carries, tackles, yards, passes, tries when up against McCaw.

Well i think Robshaw, Johnson/Fearns and Morgan will blow the Saffers out the water...they wont handle the power and pace of that trio!!!!!

Remember Dowson's carrying!!!

Is your man Johnson a contender? What sort of player is he? Seems to be highly rated by the english fans on here.

I wouldn't say Kolisi is an openside myself... he isn't really great or prolific on the floor, his best skill is his tackling... he's an absolute rock and often is positioned to take out the big centre runners... he rarely fails to complete a tackle. He is still young and in his first season however and I'll accept that most players these days aren't out and out 6-8's at that point... perhaps WP & SA will try and mould him into an openside.

If ENG were to play AUS I think they woud have a serious balance problem at the backrow... I wouldn't say that about SA though. I'm not sure whether thats because I rate Pocock higher and perhaps Brussow is just having a nothing season... not bad, not good.

I would certainly say that Johnson is at the moment the standout backrow player at the Cheetahs. Actually getting rather impressed by him, he's was playing off the bench at the beginning of the season but always brings energy to the side, a real bust a gut type and I think Wasps have a good signing.

Remember Dowson's carrying!!!

He could teach Farrell how to use a two on one!

Is your man Johnson a contender? What sort of player is he? Seems to be highly rated by the english fans on here.

Rory, he has been pushing for a season or two now. He had a very good game v the Baa baas...and with Croft, Wood etc out its looking between him and possibly Fearns for the 6 spot. I wouldnt be dissapointed with either too be honest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HErYjFBQLgA

Thanks for the link!

Fa0019, sounds like Kolisi is more of a Dusautoir type flanker then? France have no real need for a "fetcher" 7 in their side.

Perhaps actually... I immediately thought of Joe Worsley myself when I first saw him... but that was only because his tackling was immense, not the size of his head!

Robshaw's played 7 for Quins for the last two seasons. The only times he's played 6 have been when Quins are fielding players who are less effective at 6 than they are at 7 - Skinner, who only plays 7, and Wallace, who might in a couple of years be an international class 7 but ain't there yet. Under normal circumstances, Robshaw plays openside and Maurie Fa'asavalu, voted the best openside of the RWC by the press corps, plays blindside.

For the record, Big Mo is on record as saying that CR is world class, and Nick Evans, who's played with both men, rates him alongside McCaw and was baffled that he couldn't get an England start until this year.

For what it's worth, I think Robshaw's best position at international level is probably 6. But, as with Richard Hill, that relies on there being a 7 who demands inclusion ahead of him. In time that might be Wallace, or Armitage, or Kvesic or I don't know. It might even be Haskell, who went well there in the past.

The things that I am clear on are that the back row needs balance, and that CR covers so many basics that he provides that balance even paired with an unusual partner like Croft. He gives Lancaster options.

Rory

I think at the moment England are looking at the same that France has...two guys on the flanks who can pretty much do everything.

And in Robshaw we have a player that i rate very highly...just need to get the other one sorted for this tour...

Sometimes those spectacular individuals aren't what is needed. Robshaw is a player I wouldn't describe as a particularly exciting player, but his work rate, dedication, commitment and consistency are just top class. He may not be mentioned with the top flankers in the world, but a backrow is a combination of 3 players, not individuals. Robshaw may be the foundation of a very good backrow.

To expand on that, maybe it is no coincidence that Croft looked so good during the 6 nations? Something to consider.

I totally agree...and i think that is one of the things that is appealing to England fans...that he has a stupidly good engine...works his socks off...aswell as having good ability.

Croft would have played at 6 if he had been fit...which possibly goes against what ive just said above...

But its either Johnson who is explosive or Fearns who is a monster and would bring alot more break down savy to the back row...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To expand on that, maybe it is no coincidence that Croft looked so good during the 6 nations? Something to consider.

I think barritt did aswell...he plays like an extra flanker that allowed Croft to play a bit more open...and not be restricted to the tight stuff...

Would people agree that Johnson and Haskell have a similar gametype...

mawhis wrote:This all depends on whether you regard 7 as being a specialist position, which I do. Its no co-incidence that the worlds best sides all have a specialist in that position. The breakdown has been a consistent problem for England - we need someone top go in and secure quick ball. Armitage is the best option that England have in that area, and has been for quite a while.

England have a number of great flankers, but they're all 6s rather than 7s. England's back row could well end up resembling the Gerrard/Lampard situation in the wendyball team, with two identical players getting in each others way because management don't want to leave either out. There needs to be a balance of skill sets across the back row.

I think that's a bit of a cliche to be honest. I don't think England struggled at the breakdown in the 6 Nations, and I think plenty of the players who were regarded as 6.5s are focussing on becoming 7s. Just because you play some of your early rugby at 6 doesn't mean you can't evolve. Players like Gibson and Fearns played 6 and 8 at age-group rugby, and I think they are both starting to specialise at 7 - just as Robshaw has.

I also think Johnson/Croft/Haskell, Robshaw, Morgan is quite nicely balanced.

I still remember Brussow when he confronted the Lions with the Cheetahs in 09. He was everywhere that day, nicking an unbelievable amount of ball off the deck. The Lions barely scraped that game as a result of his exploits and as a direct result he won his first call-up to the SA squad that same tour. Hasn't looked back since. It's that that inclines me to classify him as a fetcher.

I agree with what has been said about McCaw also. He is more finely balanced than an out and out jackal at the breakdown. He's often been one of the first in there when things come to ground but he is also a capable tackler and a dynamic runner and link-man. Would I be right in considering him an example of a 6.5 that works? But then it helps to play for the AB's I suppose.

Dusautoir, like most good 7's, can steal effectively but I'm beginning to wonder whether people take this too much for granted in considering him more of an openside than a 6.5. As good a fetcher as he is, that quality is outweighed by the sheer volume of his tackles. That'll be what caused Lievremont and now Saint André to relocate him to blindside. He may not always tackle hard but he's like a demon with open arms around the field. Cardiff 07 was a frightening performance all round, I think it was more tackles than the entire AB's XV was it not? And a try to boot. The final of last year is also a fine definition of Duss and even the Grand Slam game this year. More tackles than Lydiate, though not as big and decisive hits which was what earned the latter MOTM.