Appreciating Rocky

First topic message reminder :

Morning

Since this fighter is one of the most beloved/underrated/overrated on the board I'd like to take an opportunity, once and for all , to memorialise some thoughts on him.

From what I've read and learned about Rocky Marciano over the many years in the beginning he was an acquired taste; it took a long time. But, even the sceptics soon become Marciano believers. He apparently was clumsier in sparring than many could imagine a ham-‘n’-egger against most half-decent boxers in the gym wearing his 16-ounce gloves that looked like the fluffy pillows from Debenhams the wife keeps buying for some reason each week. I see the flaws what the doubters see on tape don't get me wrong, but every guy who looked like they boxed rings around him, the ones who pinned his ears back, the ones never missed him with jabs, came out of the ring looking like he was dropped from a 10-story building and landed flat-footed. Rocky's cuffing, pawing, mauling, grazing shots, flicks to the sides when he was tied-up on the inside, impacted them like they'd been bumped by a rhino. From ringside many reporters said when Rocky landed, the only evidence was an "OOPH!" grimace and quiver.

Rocky was ponderous. Fighters could see the punches. They weren't surprised; they were beat down, every sparring partner who looked sensational against him, said the same thing exiting the ring: "I hurt all over." The wonderkinds and Robinson-clones that watched Rocky in the gym or at the Garden and licked their lips at a future match thought of him like cancer: He could only happen to the other guy.

Off a stat sheet, any number of guys now would be favoured over him, but doing it in the ring proved it would be a sobering experience. The lads yesterday Jeff, Windy, Chris etc mentioned how Archie one of the toughest creatures on earth held Rocky in the highest esteem.

There are certain dimensions to his game, that are not immediately obvious, that quickly became apparent to anybody who shared a ring with him from Louis to Ali.

I cant remember who said "it hurt to bump into him", but they probably summed it up best. He could seemingly make an oponent hurt for every second of every round, and he was a lot more unpredictable than people think.

This is one fighter who definitely had the devil inside him.

I tend to rate him in the listings higher than most, Rocky is my number 3, not the most glamorous c.v I accept, however his undefeated feat and winning streak is yet to be replicated in any era at the heavyweights top level, that is proof to me thats how difficult it is.

Thanks and have a great day.

andygf wrote:Evening chaps,after a few "Ladyboy"s and "Blue Nuns", good to see the debate is still raging.
Now a concern I have for The Rock in my Top Ten slot, is this- that he defended the title six times.Is that really enough?Defended against Walcott- who he mullered- and two against Charles.Now don't get me wrong, Walcott Charles and Moore is an incredible resume.Contrast it though with Louis's long reign.
By his own admission Rock was a late developer and some of his earlier fights were horribly crude affairs...42 fights before he was a champion,and didn't stick around long.
For me anyway, he belongs somewhere outside of the elite handful, but agree with Rowley's maxim that he would be a handful for anyone.

But in his favour andy - he retired because there wasn't really anyone else around for him to face, which ranks in his favour. He could have gone on to have a "bum of the month club" - but i doubt he'd get any more credit with some for it...

My list of boxers who would beat Rocky on any given day.

1) Ali
2) Holmes
3) Tyson
4) Louis - peak not the washed up version Rock beat
5) Charles - see above
6) Johnson
7) Lewis
8) Liston
9) Witherspoon
10) Tony Tubbs
11) Holyfield
12) Vit K
13) Wlad K
14) Frazier
15) Foreman
16) Bonavena
17) Cleveland Williams
18) Jimmy Young
19) Greg Page
20)Jeffries
21) Tunney
22) Roy Jones Jnr
23) Toney
24) Hopkins
25) Pac - with obvious weight stipulations

I'll give the other 25 later this evening.

Have fun

azania wrote:My list of boxers who would beat Rocky on any given day.

1) Ali
2) Holmes
3) Tyson
4) Louis - peak not the washed up version Rock beat
5) Charles - see above
6) Johnson
7) Lewis
8) Liston
9) Witherspoon
10) Tony Tubbs
11) Holyfield
12) Vit K
13) Wlad K
14) Frazier
15) Foreman
16) Bonavena
17) Cleveland Williams
18) Jimmy Young
19) Greg Page
20)Jeffries
21) Tunney
22) Roy Jones Jnr
23) Toney
24) Hopkins
25) Pac - with obvious weight stipulations

I'll give the other 25 later this evening.

Have fun

Comedy genius, az.

Funniest boxing post I've ever read. Hats off to you.

25) Cassius Clay - 2 different guys
26) Riddick Bowe
27) Corbett
28) Sharkey
29) Mike Spinks
30) Bob Foster
31) Tony Tucker
32) Shavers
33) Norton
34) Larry Donald
35) Pinklon Thomas (if he got of the gear)
36) Dempsey (that would be legalised murder)
37) Ike Ibeabuchi
38) Tua
39) Mike Weaver
40) Bruno

Final 10 to follow

azania wrote:25) Cassius Clay - 2 different guys
26) Riddick Bowe
27) Corbett
28) Sharkey
29) Mike Spinks
30) Bob Foster
31) Tony Tucker
32) Shavers
33) Norton
34) Larry Donald
35) Pinklon Thomas (if he got of the gear)
36) Dempsey (that would be legalised murder)
37) Ike Ibeabuchi
38) Tua
39) Mike Weaver
40) Bruno

Final 10 to follow

Don't forget Bruce Seldon, Michael Bentt and Henry Akinwande.

And Scott Welch, Joe Erskine, Jack Bodell, Mac Foster and Chuck Wepner.

Nah. Those guys were worse than Rocky.

Wepner and Rocky would have been a bloodbath and a very competitive fight.

Valuev would beat him, if Rocky couldn't bully you, pressure you or knockout, you have got a decent chance to beat him.

Mick McManus, Johnny Kwango, Giant Haystacks, Les Kellett, Big Daddy, Steve Logan.

Then there's Stephen Hendry, Seb Coe, Ayrton Senna, Rod Laver, Gary Sobers, Wilt Chamberlain, Babe Ruth, Jack Nicklaus, George Best, Mark Spitz, David Campese, Daley Thompson and Flo Jo.

HumanWindmill wrote:Mick McManus, Johnny Kwango, Giant Haystacks, Les Kellett, Big Daddy, Steve Logan.

Then there's Stephen Hendry, Seb Coe, Ayrton Senna, Rod Laver, Gary Sobers, Wilt Chamberlain, Babe Ruth, Jack Nicklaus, George Best, Mark Spitz, David Campese, Daley Thompson and Flo Jo.

FloJo Now you're taking the pi$$.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Mick McManus, Johnny Kwango, Giant Haystacks, Les Kellett, Big Daddy, Steve Logan.

Then there's Stephen Hendry, Seb Coe, Ayrton Senna, Rod Laver, Gary Sobers, Wilt Chamberlain, Babe Ruth, Jack Nicklaus, George Best, Mark Spitz, David Campese, Daley Thompson and Flo Jo.

FloJo Now you're taking the pi$$.

Fatima Whitbread, then.

Actually, now I think about it, she MIGHT have beate.............

Nah.

You got a point with her. I swear she shaved more often that I do.

Plus Dave, Dee, Dozy, Beaky Mick and Titch, Rod, Jane and Freddie, right?

azania wrote:You got a point with her. I swear she shaved more often that I do.

I wouldn't fight her. She definitely belongs on your list.

BALTIMORA wrote:Plus Dave, Dee, Dozy, Beaky Mick and Titch, Rod, Jane and Freddie, right?

Nope. But on my list, most of those guys would slaughter Rocky imho. I really do not rate him at all.

BALTIMORA wrote:Plus Dave, Dee, Dozy, Beaky Mick and Titch, Rod, Jane and Freddie, right?

Don't forget the Fab Four, BALTI.

Few wanted a part of John, Paul, George or Ringo. Marciano would definitely have required more than ' a little help from his friends. '

azania wrote: I really do not rate him at all.

What really? No, go on...pull the other one. You're joking right?

You could have knocked me over with a feather when you wrote that.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote: I really do not rate him at all.

What really? No, go on...pull the other one. You're joking right?

You could have knocked me over with a feather when you wrote that.

Kept that one under wraps didn't he, oxy ?

Windy, have been out after work, since about four and so have about 8 pints of Guinness swilling round me. Based on this am fairly confident I'd take him as well, does that make it 41, is hard to keep count.

Wheres Audley?

rowley wrote:Windy, have been out after work, since about four and so have about 8 pints of Guinness swilling round me. Based on this am fairly confident I'd take him as well, does that make it 41, is hard to keep count.

Eight pints, jeff ?

You'd have done it with four.

joeyjojo618 wrote:Wheres Audley?

He'll be there, joey.

I'm half expecting my Uncle Reg to turn up as well.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote: I really do not rate him at all.

What really? No, go on...pull the other one. You're joking right?

You could have knocked me over with a feather when you wrote that.

Ha.

When people praise Rocky, I look at his fights and I sit there saying "what the F are they talking about". I have never come across a more uncordinated, crude, ungainly boxer who makes Dennis Andries look like Ali re-born.

rowley wrote:Windy, have been out after work, since about four and so have about 8 pints of Guinness swilling round me. Based on this am fairly confident I'd take him as well, does that make it 41, is hard to keep count.

I think I'll join you. *hic*

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

azania wrote: I really do not rate him at all.

What really? No, go on...pull the other one. You're joking right?

You could have knocked me over with a feather when you wrote that.

Ha.

When people praise Rocky, I look at his fights and I sit there saying "what the F are they talking about". I have never come across a more uncordinated, crude, ungainly boxer who makes Dennis Andries look like Ali re-born.

Yeah, if only he had the silky skills and power of Bonavena, who makes your list.

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Windy, have been out after work, since about four and so have about 8 pints of Guinness swilling round me. Based on this am fairly confident I'd take him as well, does that make it 41, is hard to keep count.

I think I'll join you. *hic*

Think that ship sailed a while ago.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

azania wrote: I really do not rate him at all.

What really? No, go on...pull the other one. You're joking right?

You could have knocked me over with a feather when you wrote that.

Ha.

When people praise Rocky, I look at his fights and I sit there saying "what the F are they talking about". I have never come across a more uncordinated, crude, ungainly boxer who makes Dennis Andries look like Ali re-born.

Yeah, if only he had the silky skills and power of Bonavena, who makes your list.

Forget about silky skills. Any bloody skills other than a wallop. Ringo was a Rocky clone only slightly better hence I would take him to beat rock.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Windy, have been out after work, since about four and so have about 8 pints of Guinness swilling round me. Based on this am fairly confident I'd take him as well, does that make it 41, is hard to keep count.

I think I'll join you. *hic*

Think that ship sailed a while ago.

Am I getting the cold shoulder of something

Final 10 coming shortly. Prepared to be surprised

41) McCall
42) Sharkey
43) Corbett
44) Sullivan
45) Baer
46) Mercer
47) Briggs
48) Haye - close call here
49) Terrell
50) Pac with weight stipulations.

OK, out of that wonderful list as promised. Who on there would Rocky beat in a H2H?

He managed alright with 'only a wallop'... What about Larry, Moe and Curly? Would they beat him?

Moe the bartender would have a shout.

Out of those 50 names, who would rocky beat?

azania wrote:Moe the bartender would have a shout.

Out of those 50 names, who would rocky beat?

More than you'd give him credit for.

BALTIMORA wrote:

azania wrote:Moe the bartender would have a shout.

Out of those 50 names, who would rocky beat?

More than you'd give him credit for.

Come on mate. Its not that difficult.

Oh, but apparently it is.

Rocky would steamroller Cleveland Williams and Frank Bruno, dominate Terrell. How the hell does Greg Page beat him? Too big I guess?

Scottrf wrote:Rocky would steamroller Cleveland Williams and Frank Bruno, dominate Terrell. How the hell does Greg Page beat him? Too big I guess?

Too skilled, fast, powerful and bigger. He had a wonderful jab with fast hands and good footwork.

He looked decent for a bit but in which prime fight was in with a real test and won? Rocky's style gets round jabs and it wasn't one to put you in your place, just a quick, flicking jab.

Sound like worse versions of old men Charles, Walcott and Moore to me, the versions of whom that lost to Marciano would have beaten the majority of the names you've looked up on Boxrec.

Now come on Page, Donald, Bruno, Spinks, Tua, Foster, Jones, Hopkins, Toney, Bonavena, Wlad, Witherspoon, Tubbs etc. simply have no chance of beating Marciano.

Chin, Stamina and Power are just as important as speed, handspeed, footwork and size

Actually I didn't use Boxrec.

Good grief. Chin, stamina and power means little if you cant hit the guy you're fighting.

Nothing matters if you the guy your facing is going to simply walk through you, which he would have done against the majority of your list and seeing as he never failed to connect against 3 genuine all time greats proves that he in most probability would catch up with anyone baring the true elite.

azania wrote:Actually I didn't use Boxrec.

Good grief. Chin, stamina and power means little if you cant hit the guy you're fighting.

12 rounds is a long time with him in the other corner, especially for some of those with questionable stamina.

Scottrf wrote:

azania wrote:Actually I didn't use Boxrec.

Good grief. Chin, stamina and power means little if you cant hit the guy you're fighting.

12 rounds is a long time with him in the other corner, especially for some of those with questionable stamina.

It absolutely it. It will be harder for Rocky who would have been taking a beating every step of the way. Lets not forget that Rocky would have been taking punches from a real heavyweight, not some fat old light heavy or a near dead former champ.

Well, I'm not naive enough to suggest that many would have no chance. But 'skills' (presumably not including things like head movement, cutting off of the ring etc in Rocky's case) and size don't necessarily mean that he's the underdog. Workrate, stamina, mentality and those type of attributes are just as important against him IMO.

Charles and Moore weren't fat nor were any of Walcott, Charles or Moore near dead, you seem to resort to not using the actual facts quite often.

Nor were the majority of the fighters mentioned heavier punchers

azania wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

azania wrote:Actually I didn't use Boxrec.

Good grief. Chin, stamina and power means little if you cant hit the guy you're fighting.

12 rounds is a long time with him in the other corner, especially for some of those with questionable stamina.

It absolutely it. It will be harder for Rocky who would have been taking a beating every step of the way. Lets not forget that Rocky would have been taking punches from a real heavyweight, not some fat old light heavy or a near dead former champ.

Where's Jeremy Beadle? This thread is pure wind-up, right?

BALTIMORA wrote:

azania wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

azania wrote:Actually I didn't use Boxrec.

Good grief. Chin, stamina and power means little if you cant hit the guy you're fighting.

12 rounds is a long time with him in the other corner, especially for some of those with questionable stamina.

It absolutely it. It will be harder for Rocky who would have been taking a beating every step of the way. Lets not forget that Rocky would have been taking punches from a real heavyweight, not some fat old light heavy or a near dead former champ.

Where's Jeremy Beadle? This thread is pure wind-up, right?

Hahahaha. Not a wind up at all. As you can see I simply dont rate the guy. Lucky champ as in right place right time with no opposition as the division was historically at its weakest.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Charles and Moore weren't fat nor were any of Walcott, Charles or Moore near dead, you seem to resort to not using the actual facts quite often.

Nor were the majority of the fighters mentioned heavier punchers

Moore started off as a Mid. He was, when fighting Rock, a light heavy. He had moobs also. He was fat.

Rock was a small cruiser at best. A genuine HW with a modicum of shill would beat him. Yes he would be competitive in today's HW scene. Face it, who wouldn't.

Just like the inferior Jones, Toney and Hopkins, all of whom a 40 year old Moore would have beat with relative ease.
When fighting Marciano, Moore was a heavyweight, he fought in the division more often than he did the light heavyweight division, surely boxrec could have told you that.

You do realise that skill comes in many forms, being a marauding bull is a skill hence why very few were as successful doing it as Marciano.