A Phoenix Italian side must be rewarded with an HEC place after ~ 8 games.

What do Dragons' fans think?

Will it be a re-hash of the Aironi side?

Link?

I think the Italian Union has two Heineken Cup spots and they can enter any team they wish. I don't think Dragons fans are that bothered. At least I've never heard them complain. I know the English and French clubs are bothered. But Italian exposure to top level European rugby is more important than the ego's of English and French clubs in the grand scheme of things.

The Heineken Cup is the best thing about European rugby. I'd prefer it to be expanded to allow more French and English in to make qualification easier for them, than to see it reduced in size to allow the French to add two teams to the top 14. I'd rather see more cross border rugby competition for everyone than a super rich French juggernaught gobbling up everyone else's talent and sticking the knife into the smaller nations.

It's a shame Aironi failed. I have no idea what the new team will be. But pro rugby in some nations is in a fragile state. If we have ambitions to grow rugby's popularity I think it's right for the erc to guarantee all the 6 nations representation in the HC. And plan to add more nations in the future. If we have ambitions to kill pro rugby in Italy and possibly Scotland then we should follow the self serving French clubs proposals.

I think it'd be better for this new Italian side to play in the Amlin cup next year so they can build themselves up, no point in playing against Clermont against and getting destroyed 83-0. Just to clarify this is not Welsh bias, i am in no way a Dragons supporter, i just think it makes the most sense for Aironi.

Why pollute the potential excellence of HC with sub-standard teams, when there is the Amlin, which already provides a more diverse, development competition.

ERC is a commercial operation - the Italians will get their share of the collective income regardless of whether their teams are in HC or Amlin.

A couple of seasons ago, Italian clubs played amongst themselves, and two had 6 HC pool games, and four had 6 Amlin pool games.
Now, two have 22 Pro12 games and 6 HC pool games, and four have the same Amlin slots. Those 22 Pro12 games should be plenty enough to fuel the development of top level Italian rugby.

Why are there 4 tier 2 Italian teams in the Amlin, when there are none from Scotland or Welsh Prem - all 4 Italians finished botton of their pools with an average match score of about 8 - 43, often playing against reserve teams. How is that helping Italian rugby? How is it helping European rugby?

Should they give up their Amlin places to Georgians, Russians, Portuguese, Germans, etc?


Demote all teams finishing bottom of their HC pools, regardless of domestic league qualification or national entitlement, and promote all Amlin pool winners.

Why pollute the potential excellence of HC with sub-standard teams

Like Newport and Cardiff?

BoyneRFC wrote:

Why pollute the potential excellence of HC with sub-standard teams

Like Newport and Cardiff?

Newport and Cardiff play in the B&I Cup, if I'm not mistaken.

They are not being rewarded with anything. Italy are entitled to 2 Heineken Cup places. That is currently Treviso and AN Other.

It is nothing to do with Dragons. Or Connacht. Or any other team outside Italy.

Italy are entitled to 2 HC spots, but why? Because they own a proportion of ERC, a purely commercial reason, entirely divorced from sporting reasons.

Is that what we want from the premier club rugby competition in Europe in the future, participation solely on commercial criteria?

Pragmatically, in this professional rugby world, commercialism cannot be ignored, but neither should sporting excellence.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Why pollute the potential excellence of HC with sub-standard teams, when there is the Amlin, which already provides a more diverse, development competition.

ERC is a commercial operation - the Italians will get their share of the collective income regardless of whether their teams are in HC or Amlin.

A couple of seasons ago, Italian clubs played amongst themselves, and two had 6 HC pool games, and four had 6 Amlin pool games.
Now, two have 22 Pro12 games and 6 HC pool games, and four have the same Amlin slots. Those 22 Pro12 games should be plenty enough to fuel the development of top level Italian rugby.

Why are there 4 tier 2 Italian teams in the Amlin, when there are none from Scotland or Welsh Prem - all 4 Italians finished botton of their pools with an average match score of about 8 - 43, often playing against reserve teams. How is that helping Italian rugby? How is it helping European rugby?

Should they give up their Amlin places to Georgians, Russians, Portuguese, Germans, etc?


Demote all teams finishing bottom of their HC pools, regardless of domestic league qualification or national entitlement, and promote all Amlin pool winners.

Is it not the whole point of a European Cup to have the best of the domestic leagues play against each other? Sure the teams mentioned above dont stand much of a chance but if they top their amateur leagues they should have the right to test themselves if its a true european cup. They certanly have more rights to representation than a team who finishes 6th in their League and has won no cup and not really done anything of note to warrant HC inclusion.

Its a European cup, not Champions league.

And Newport and Cardiff are Welsh premiership sides ?

To be fair I would rather see a rebranded Aironi than see an Overmach Parma that have been stripped of their better players (to Treviso and the re-branded Aironi) seeing as those are the realistic choices.

That said thinking about it do the Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys Connacht, Edinburgh, or Treviso really deserve a place in the HEC. I have an idea lets ditch them all and just have Leinster, Ulster (only because they were defeated finalists), Munster, and make the rest up of Jeff and Top 14 sides. Much fairer and makes much more sense.

Welshmushroom wrote:
Is it not the whole point of a European Cup to have the best of the domestic leagues play against each other?

I remember debating that here with other posters and it's clear that we dont all agree on what the HC should be all about. Some like me would want less teams but better ones (note that I am not implying less pro12/irish teams here) with other teams going into the real development cup i.e. the AC. while other people seem to think that the HC should also be a developing league with all countries represented.

while other people seem to think that the HC should also be a developing league with all countries represented.

The French/English proposed a third tier competition which would cater much better for a lot of the smaller countries teams than the HEC. The Amlin would be a good stepping stone between the top and bottom tier and the teams from developing countries should be offered progression between the tiers.

I fail to see how shoving more teams from developing countries into the top tier event helps anybody. The crowds and tv coverage is smaller for the bigger teams and for the smaller teams there is the great excitement of taking a massive kicking in every game.

I dont think there should be more than 1 country represented in any pool, if we have 5 pools have 5 french and english clubs, if we have 6 pools have 6 teams from those countries.

I think it's silly that a european cup can have 2 french or english teams in a single pool.

the way its going id rather europe scraped and the rabo expanded.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think the Italian Union has two Heineken Cup spots and they can enter any team they wish. I don't think Dragons fans are that bothered. At least I've never heard them complain. I know the English and French clubs are bothered. But Italian exposure to top level European rugby is more important than the ego's of English and French clubs in the grand scheme of things.

The Heineken Cup is the best thing about European rugby. I'd prefer it to be expanded to allow more French and English in to make qualification easier for them, than to see it reduced in size to allow the French to add two teams to the top 14. I'd rather see more cross border rugby competition for everyone than a super rich French juggernaught gobbling up everyone else's talent and sticking the knife into the smaller nations.

It's a shame Aironi failed. I have no idea what the new team will be. But pro rugby in some nations is in a fragile state. If we have ambitions to grow rugby's popularity I think it's right for the erc to guarantee all the 6 nations representation in the HC. And plan to add more nations in the future. If we have ambitions to kill pro rugby in Italy and possibly Scotland then we should follow the self serving French clubs proposals.

Quite right. Just like the rabo it has to allow in a load of no hopers just so people dont feel left out.

Joking aside there has to be a balance. If the inclusion of certain unions clubs is creating excessively one sided games ( as in the ECC) and doing little to add to the income generated, even potentially costing clubs, it doesnt help anyone.
As you say the finances of most clubs across all unions are in a pretty perilous state, lets be careful not to kill off the few that have some level off success trying to help out dead ducks or those not even born yet.

In this case i cant see how anyone can really argue against Italy getting a second nomination, its long been established they have the right to one. Going forward though if they cant get a second viable Rabo franchise going then that place should be reviewed to avoid an anomaly.