Springboks may have a totally new look loose trio.

Springbok rugby has never been short of physical, athletic and big back rowers, but it seems for the first time a Springbok coach may have to look ouside the "favoured" players when selecting his back row for the upcoming English test series.

They are currently severely deppleted by injuries and those lucky enough to still grace the field has question marks over their form.

Juan Smith - out
Schalk Burger - out
Jaque Potgieter - out
Duane Vermeulen - out
Willem Alberts - niggly shoulder and dropped for lack of form by John Plumtree

Pierre Spies - out of form
Heinrich Brussow - has not yet convinced this season
Jean Deysel - only coming back from injury now
Ashley johnson - Started few games this season mainly utilised as a bench player

Does this leave the door open for players like Marcel Coetzee the 21 year old up and coming star from the Sharks? Perhaps Josh Strauss even though he plays for the Lions? How about Derrik Minnie, will he at last get an opportunity?

You would think Meyer will have no choice to keep Spies at 8 for his experience, he may even reason that an off form Brussow is better than starting with a player with no international experience.

I would expect Meyer to keep Spies at 8, start Marcel Coetzee and Heinrich Brussow, with Ashley Johnson on the bench.

It is crazy that with so many injuries, South Africa will still probably have one of the best backrow combinations in the world.

Also, why does Johnson not start for the Cheetahs?

I think Naka Drotske prefers to use him as an impact player due to his ball carrying abilities late in the game. He can be quite a devastating runner, but his all round game is not always up to par.

Is he a bit lazy then? He seems to have a really natural affinity for the game every time I have seen him. Very smart player, with a lot of pace and size to go with it. I like his style.

I dn't think he is lazy, it is just he doesn't do the grunt work as well as others.

When you compare him to Juan Smith for example, there isn't much he can boast about. He needs the game to open up before his effectvieness with ball in hand comes to the fore, similar to Spies, good in an open game, but in the tight exchanges not so good.

For those reason I would not want to see them together, even Brussow needs hardmen around him to be effective in the rucks. So those three together might be too lightweight to take on a physical English loose trio.

Sad to see that Alberts is out of form/injured - I have been very impressed with him off the bench for the Boks. He had an annoying habit of picking up tries off the bench before the WC.

Apaarantly Plumtree is having trouble with Alberts' attitude. Not sure what it is about, he said earlier that Alberts has had the niggle on his shoulder for about a year now, but not so bad that he can't play.

When asked why he doesn't play then, he said when alberts shows him enough reason to play he might consider him, so it is a bit unclear what the situation is surrounding Alberts.

Johnson wont get a look , CJ stander at the bulls a MUCH better player and of course he's a bull brought in by Meyer himself .Keegan daniel should get a cap i think he's by far the best 8 in SA . 6.Stander 7. Coetzee .8 Daniel but we're more likely to see 6.Brussow 7.Coetzee . 8.Spies.

Cant Alberts play lock aswell - or is that someone else im thinking of.

biltongbek wrote:Apaarantly Plumtree is having trouble with Alberts' attitude. Not sure what it is about, he said earlier that Alberts has had the niggle on his shoulder for about a year now, but not so bad that he can't play.

When asked why he doesn't play then, he said when alberts shows him enough reason to play he might consider him, so it is a bit unclear what the situation is surrounding Alberts.

'i was wondering why he wasnt playing He's a beast of a player in top form though

I disagree about Daniel, he is lightweight, doesn't EVER pass or offload and will never make a good springbok.

Stander might, but I put him in the same category as Marcel Coetzee, Elstad and Josh Strauss

wales606 wrote:Cant Alberts play lock aswell - or is that someone else im thinking of.

Plumtree tried Jean deysel at lock, but I think that was more out of necessity last year than any other reason. Since the announcements of Matfield retiring and Bakkies leaving a few new locks have put up their hands, so I don't think it is necessary to experiment with that anymore.

No other 8 in SA runs nearly as well as Daniel as for this business of lightweights , thats the reason we're stuck with the physcially impressive spies who does Poopie all game. Then Josh strauss where has he been all season? Stormers 8s are falling off like flies .Johnson doesnt even start for the cheetahs .Which leaves Keegan Daniel who really does deserve it on merit

biltongbek wrote:

wales606 wrote:Cant Alberts play lock aswell - or is that someone else im thinking of.

Plumtree tried Jean deysel at lock, but I think that was more out of necessity last year than any other reason. Since the announcements of Matfield retiring and Bakkies leaving a few new locks have put up their hands, so I don't think it is necessary to experiment with that anymore.

So Alberts didn't play lock?

Who is likely to lineup at lock for the Boks? - Is Bakkies still playing? - Im guessing Matfield won't be back.

Could be a very new Springbok pack - No Smit, Bakkies, Matfield, Smith or Burger.

Makes me wish Wales were off to South Africa this year - England have a great opportunity to follow up from the 6Ns, although their side is not really settled either...unlike Wales and Australia :/.

At least you can make a case for Strauss, he plays for a poor team and always creates go forward ball, as far as tight exchanges I would pick him in a heartbeat ahead of spies and Daniel, especially considering there might be no alberts, no burger, no smith.

You CANNOT pick Brussow, Spies/Daniel and Johnson.

You won't get go forward ball from them.

wales606 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

wales606 wrote:Cant Alberts play lock aswell - or is that someone else im thinking of.

Plumtree tried Jean deysel at lock, but I think that was more out of necessity last year than any other reason. Since the announcements of Matfield retiring and Bakkies leaving a few new locks have put up their hands, so I don't think it is necessary to experiment with that anymore.

So Alberts didn't play lock?

Who is likely to lineup at lock for the Boks? - Is Bakkies still playing? - Im guessing Matfield won't be back.

Could be a very new Springbok pack - No Smit, Bakkies, Matfield, Smith or Burger.

Makes me wish Wales were off to South Africa this year - England have a great opportunity to follow up from the 6Ns, although their side is not really settled either...unlike Wales and Australia :/.

I beg to differ of the four you mentioned only Schalk was on form in the world cup . Boks get an upgrade for smit in Bismarck , Eztebeth is like a 20 year old Bakkies wgo carries even more ,Bekker is not as good as victor in the lineout but he's far better around the park as for loose forwards.We have many of those around. So no this is not a Bok team for the taking if you were under that impression

wales606 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

wales606 wrote:Cant Alberts play lock aswell - or is that someone else im thinking of.

Plumtree tried Jean deysel at lock, but I think that was more out of necessity last year than any other reason. Since the announcements of Matfield retiring and Bakkies leaving a few new locks have put up their hands, so I don't think it is necessary to experiment with that anymore.

So Alberts didn't play lock?

Who is likely to lineup at lock for the Boks? - Is Bakkies still playing? - Im guessing Matfield won't be back.

Could be a very new Springbok pack - No Smit, Bakkies, Matfield, Smith or Burger.

Makes me wish Wales were off to South Africa this year - England have a great opportunity to follow up from the 6Ns, although their side is not really settled either...unlike Wales and Australia :/.

Ah, my friend, it may be newish, but by no means weaker.

Beast is back and hitting form, you have Kitshoff, Dean greyling and Coenie Oosthuizen all knocking on the door.
Bismarck is still there, might even be pushed by Afriaan Struss who is in scintilating form, Chilliboy who is in good nick, Tiaan Liebenberg and Craig Burden.
Jannie du Plessis might require a better back up.
Andries Bekker, Etzebeth, Juandre Kruger and Flip v d Merwe are all top class, we might lose out on Matfield's line out mastery, but still good enough to challenge any lineout.
I would like to see a back row of Alberts, Coetzee and Strauss.

Still a very strong pack, youthfull and physical.

biltongbek wrote:At least you can make a case for Strauss, he plays for a poor team and always creates go forward ball, as far as tight exchanges I would pick him in a heartbeat ahead of spies and Daniel, especially considering there might be no alberts, no burger, no smith.

You CANNOT pick Brussow, Spies/Daniel and Johnson.

You won't get go forward ball from them.

Johnson wont start for the boks that much is very clear, hell he's leaving the cheetahs for a french team?(nh team) after super rugby . spies will be picked unfortunately Brussow again if he's fit which leaves Coetzee,Stander,Kolisi,Dewald Potgieter and maybe Alberts for the blindside .All of which are incredible players .

Lacking in experience at least - and some player who haven't really been tested out in a full international.

Anyone want to have a go at predicting the full 15/22 for the first test?

Kolisi is too inexperienced, hope it isn't dewald Potgieter, he is a poor man's Smith.

As I said in the OP, Brussow and Spies are most likely, then if that is the case you would need a bruiser like alberts.

If anything I think South Africa are going to come back looking better than ever. I am very excited to see the new look springboks.

biltongbek wrote:
I would like to see a back row of Alberts, Coetzee and Strauss.

Still a very strong pack, youthfull and physical.

Thats a backrow any team would hate to be up against Imagine an opposition flyhalf regularly seeing Alberts ,Coetzee and Strauss alternating down his channel .

wales606 wrote:Lacking in experience at least - and some player who haven't really been tested out in a full international.

Anyone want to have a go at predicting the full 15/22 for the first test?

Likely 15.

1 beast
2 Bismarck
3 Jannie
4 V D Merwe
5 Bekker
6 Brussow
7 Alberts
8 Spies
9 Fourie du Preez ( I really hope it is Hougaard)
10 Morne Steyn ( personally would have liked Lambie)
11 Habana ( wuld have liked Mvovo or Ndungane)
12 Frans Steyn
13 Jean de Villiers ( Would have liked Habana or JP Pietersen)
14 JP Pietersen
15 Lambie

Bullsbok wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
I would like to see a back row of Alberts, Coetzee and Strauss.

Still a very strong pack, youthfull and physical.

Thats a backrow any team would hate to be up against Imagine an opposition flyhalf regularly seeing Alberts ,Coetzee and Strauss alternating down his channel .

Just think wet shorts and diapers.

I would have thought Hougaard would be a shoe in - du Preez has not played well for years now.

Would be interesting to see Habana at 13 feeding off Steyn.

Not much change in the backs predicted then - will be interesting to see them up against a very inexperience England midfield (especially if Farrell plays 10).

biltongbek wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
I would like to see a back row of Alberts, Coetzee and Strauss.

Still a very strong pack, youthfull and physical.

Thats a backrow any team would hate to be up against Imagine an opposition flyhalf regularly seeing Alberts ,Coetzee and Strauss alternating down his channel .

Just think wet shorts and diapers.

Ireland have been trying that with O'Brien, Ferris and Heaslip - it has not really been effective.

Wales606, problem is Meyer has a very strong and long running relationship with du Preez, and du Preez said he is available if Meyer wants him.

I agree since his shoulder injury in 2009, he has never been the same

biltongbek wrote:

wales606 wrote:Lacking in experience at least - and some player who haven't really been tested out in a full international.

Anyone want to have a go at predicting the full 15/22 for the first test?

Likely 15.

1 beast
2 Bismarck
3 Jannie
4 V D Merwe
5 Bekker
6 Brussow
7 Alberts
8 Spies
9 Fourie du Preez ( I really hope it is Hougaard)
10 Morne Steyn ( personally would have liked Lambie)
11 Habana ( wuld have liked Mvovo or Ndungane)
12 Frans Steyn
13 Jean de Villiers ( Would have liked Habana or JP Pietersen)
14 JP Pietersen
15 Lambie

would appear your wish has been granted http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/Fourie-Time-for-the-new-guard-20120508 . As for 13 i'd prefer Juan De Jongh a tried and tested 13 not habana and JPP . And before you start your size argument again , all of De Jonghs caps have been at 13 for the Springboks and he has not dissapointed

Bullsbok, I don't have a problem if either de Jongh, aplon or Basson plays, but a combination of them I do.

biltongbek wrote:Bullsbok, I don't have a problem if either de Jongh, aplon or Basson plays, but a combination of them I do.

I so easily forget Aplon and Basson , ones our best winger and the others a try scoring machine who's a perfect fit for Heyneke Meyer gameplans. .Just because they're small doesnt mean a combination of them cant defend .JDJ and Aplon have yet to let down the stormers who have arguably the best club defense on the planet . JDV and Habana probably let it more tries because of flying out of defensive lines than the other 3 but you'd happily back them?

I don't like de Villers, he has lost his pcae, hasn't put a Stormer into space for years and should retre from international rugby.

Jdv will be there purely as fouries gone.like it or not SA has relied on those two for so long and both out at once isnt a good idea. I actually thought jdv has gone well this sxv from what ive seen.

A spies Fourie steyne 8, 9, 10 combo is suicide through apathy I ld suggest. Too tired and predictable and between the three will strangle any progress of newcomers or gameplan, their perceived wealth of experience dominating proceedings.

Johnson looks good as an impact player id have thought.

The thing about JDV is that he is a calm head, knows how to keep a backline organised and is a good leader.

I wouldn't be so quick to suggest he's lost his pace... he chased down Le Roux near all the way after the interception (a 22 yr old winger) who had a 15 metre head start on JDV and whilst Le Roux scored he got a touch on him... not bad for an old man!

He's not as explosive as he once was and doesn't have the distribution skills of lets say Frans Steyn... but they are different players, JDV has never been a second five eigth type centre.

JDV won't make the next RWC thats a given... but I think it would be a mistake to get rid of all the leaders in the team.

The boks have lost Smit, Matfield, Bakkies, Du Preez & Fioure.... all senior players, all leaders. To get rid of JDV would be a bad step in my mind esp. given Smith & Burger are injured.

At least at 13 there is no one setting the world on fire, no one banging on the door for a test jersey. If the rest of the team was stable then perhaps you could experiment with a young player like De Jongh or Sadie but given there has been a firesale of retirements and injuries this season its probably unwise.

I agree , start JDv at 13 vs england but start subbing him at the 50min mark for De jongh or JJ/Sadie . And with frans steyn at 12 then theres some distribution going on

7.Flip Van Der Merwe
6.Heinrich Brussouw
8.Pierre Spies


Heard it here first......

stranger things have happened....

PDV survived birth, childhood, puberty and even into adulthood regardless of him having a brain and a mouth which most cabbages would be ashamed of.

FA, maybe I am just tired of the old guard and a gameplan that was foged in 2007 and ran 2 years past it sell by date.

I want a new guard, I want us to take the risk of playing a new generation of player.

When you look at our front row.

Beast is only 26, so he will be there for the next world cup, we need a back p for him, Kitshoff (19), Coenie (21), Dean Greyling (26) are the next guard that needs experience soon.

Bismarck is 27, Tiaan Liebenberg (31) is too old, Adriaan Strauss (26) is in great form and has been for some time, he needs exposure, Deon Fourie (25) might be a possibility and Craig burden (26) could be, Chiliboy (26) is an option as well.

Tight head is a problem area, Jannie du Plessis doesn't really have any back up except perhaps Frans Malherbe (21)

Andries Bekker (29) might still be around and Flip v d Merwe could be, but he doesn't inspire a lot of confidence and there are some youngsters out there who in my opinion such as Juandre Kruger (26), Eben etzebeth (21), Andries ferreira (21) are the guys that must make the step up as soon as possible.

At back row, Juan smith is unlikely to make the next world cup, even f he does come back, Schalk Burger (28) might be there, but when you look at the depth of Heinrich brussow (25), Willem Alberts (27), Pierre Spies (26), Rynhard elstad (21), Jean Deysel (27), Josh Strauss (25), Siya Kolisi (21), chances are these youngsters will have surpassed him.

Fourie du Preez (30) is over, so Francois hougaard (24) must be the first choice, with guys like Dewald duvenhage (24) as back up. even run Pienaar (27) will still be young enough

Flyhalf is the pivot around which Meyer will base his gameplan, and Morne Steyn (28) is still young enough to be around for the next world cup, but he lacks consistency in his tatical kicking, has little imagination and is a one trick pony, Patrick Lambie (22), Johan goosen (19) can herald a new era of playmakers for us.

Jean de Villiers (31) is in the twilight of his career, Frans Steyn (25), Juan de Jongh (24), JP Pietersen (25), Bryan Habana (28), Mvovo (25), Johann sadie (22) are the generation of guys who can make the next world cup.

But it all starts with the right combination at 9, 10 and 12. In my view right now Hougaard, Lambie and Frans steyn is that combination. Then give Habana or Pietersen whichever Meyer believes has the best impact at outside centre, and you will have all the skills required to break any defence down.

Besides that with Frans at 12 and JP or Habana at 13, there is enough experience in the midfield.

biltongbek, how do you think Meyer will aim to set up his team?

Will he go the same way as De Villiers and use Morne Steyn's boot or do you think he will go for more running backs with perhaps Lambie at flyhalf?

wales606 wrote:Cant Alberts play lock aswell - or is that someone else im thinking of.

Are you thinking of Albert Van Den Berg, a bok lock from a couple of years back?

RE: Du Preez, I thought he had said that he'd rather not play and make space for new talent instead! (Or am I just imagining?)

I really hope Lambie gets a chance a flyhalf, he's calm, cool, kicks well, distributes well, tackles well, and spots gaps in defenses.

The Beast was also looking good on Saturday, he seems invigorated by his recent time off.

And finally, if you are wanting pace on the park, look no further than Mvovo: he outsprinted the entire force backline over 80m twice in five minutes!

(Okay so I'm a little bit biased in favour of the Sharks, oh well I'm just excited because we won a game...)

Zander, this is what I think he is going to do.

Likely 15.

1 beast
2 Bismarck
3 Jannie
4 V D Merwe
5 Bekker
6 Brussow
7 Alberts
8 Spies
9 Fourie du Preez ( I really hope it is Hougaard)
10 Morne Steyn ( personally would have liked Lambie)
11 Habana ( wuld have liked Mvovo or Ndungane)
12 Frans Steyn
13 Jean de Villiers ( Would have liked Habana or JP Pietersen)
14 JP Pietersen
15 Lambie


I am sure Meyer would want to pick as experienced team as he can due to the lack of preparation time, his excuse will be he has had no time to assess the whole squad togethr apart from his sessions he had in the last month.

It is understandable, but when does he then experiment?

Is he hoping to win the first two tests to experiment in he last one?

If he does no experimentation during the english test series, he certainly wont be doing it furing the 4 nations, hopefully he will at least use some of the guys as impact subs.

If he does select Lambie at 15 and Morne at 10, then he could use Lambie on attack, which will already give him an indication of whether he can put his trust in Lambie, but he will never let anyone else kick while Morne is in the team, so how will he know if Lambie can do it?

i'm really not convinced with Habana And JPP at 13 .Both are Wingers and should stay wingers imo.They will get brutally exposed by experienced Centers. I shudder to think of the amount of times habana will fly up in defense against SBW and Conrad Smith in the all blacks. JDV should be 13 if not De Jongh , JDv is at least known for organising defense and De jongh is a 13 i dont see where the confusion is .

as for the Long run Hougaard 9, Goosen 10 Lambie 15 . Frans Steyn 12 . thats the backbone of the backline , you heard it here first

long run I agree, it is the now I am concerned with.

Would Lambie at 10 and Goosen at 12 not maybe be better? I am pretty sure Goosen has played 12?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Would Lambie at 10 and Goosen at 12 not maybe be better? I am pretty sure Goosen has played 12?

Frans Steyn is a specialist 12 and thats where he's most effective . Besides Meyer believes lambie is a better 15 than 10 .I personally think Goosen is a better 10 .

That would be quite a devastating 10, 12, 15 combination. Goosen and Lambie to add the magic and Frans Steyn to add the grunt to the back line with his ball carrying.

Goosen is not available and in time to come he may well be the incumbent 10, but not now

This only solidifies morne at 10 unless Meyer brings in a specialist fullback Kirchner Joe Piertesen?

Is Steyn a specialist 12 though? He has played 15 a fair bit like.

Steyn and Lambie are both utility backs, however Steyn at 12 and Lambie at 15 makes the most sense.

Bullsbok wrote:This only solidifies morne at 10 unless Meyer brings in a specialist fullback Kirchner Joe Piertesen?

Sadly yes, but I hope for all our sakes he doesn't bring in Kirchner, one thing we don't need is another back line player who doesn't pass or offload.