Why are there no top notch scrummies anymore?

by Taffineastbourne Wed 09 May 2012, 10:37 pm

Joost was the last top drawer number 9,maybe Dwayne Peel at his best might also qualify.
I reckon the professional coaching by numbers limits the instinctive play of a top scrummie.
NZ have done pretty well with nowt special in the 9 shirt,so is the day of the influential 9 consigned to the history books?

by Bathite Wed 09 May 2012, 10:41 pm

Genia is class, just off form
Parra is world class and playing well for Clermont
Yachvili is arguably better than Parra

Fourie Du Preez has been a quality player at the top level for a very long time, just tailed off the last few years.

Not sure what your point is really fella?

by Taffineastbourne Wed 09 May 2012, 10:51 pm

Bathite wrote:Genia is class, just off form
Parra is world class and playing well for Clermont
Yachvili is arguably better than Parra

Fourie Du Preez has been a quality player at the top level for a very long time, just tailed off the last few years.

Not sure what your point is really fella?

Being the best of a bad bunch isnt anything.
Back in the day folk like Gareth or Ken Catchpole could turn a game and be genuinely feared by the oppo.The modern era 9 just does his job.The way France interchange 9/10 players is indicative that the roles are seen as not important specialities.
Wales are doing fairly well with a 9 who would not figure too highly in an all time greatest list.

I suppose my point is,has 9 become an irrelevance?

by ChequeredJersey Wed 09 May 2012, 11:06 pm

No the role has just changed

by sirtidychris Wed 09 May 2012, 11:31 pm

I'd say its very hard for a scrum half to get alot of praise, they can make a few clean line breaks every now and again but essentially they have to pass the ball from the base of the scrum or box kick...doing these things makes it very hard to stand out as amazing in comparison to everyone else on the pitch.

Fourie Du Preez at his best a couple of years ago was absolutly amazing and one the best internationals around at the time...at the moment I agree there are no real glittering talents (good interntional players but not set the world alight (Genia is on the verge)

One thing i have been surprised about is the problems the all blacks have had replacing Justin Marshall and Byron Kellerher...these guys were amazing for the all blacks and while piri weepu has his good moments like the RWC semi final...he also has his bad days like the RWC final.

In England recently we have had a similar pattern with our scrum halfs..new kid breaks onto the scene plays very well for a few games and looks like the future..... then he loses form, looks lost at decsion time, stares for hours at the ball at the base of the breakdown and then crabs sideways before passing it. We seem to have to constantly swap between youngs, care, wigglesworth, dickson and possibly simspon to stop the rot setting in.

by Bathite Wed 09 May 2012, 11:34 pm

When on form, sniping pacey scrummies like Young and Genia change games and drives the tempo, forcing penalties.

Scrummies like Parra and Yachvili dictate the tempo of a game, make very few mistakes and punish opposition mistakes with incredible place kicking.

They play both of them because it's hard to leave one out and because their fly halves aren't up to it.

Still not really seeing your point fella

by wales606 Wed 09 May 2012, 11:43 pm

Genia, Parra, Peinaar and Yachvilli all orchestrate there teams from 9.

And say what you like about Phillips, but he is a gamechanger at SH - which is why he is so valuable to Wales and likely to be the Lions SH next year.

On form, Youngs, and Blair are also instrumental in their teams performance.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 09 May 2012, 11:47 pm

Isn't Gareth Edwards known as a fantastic rugby player but not scrum half? It depends on what you want from a scrum half

by Morgannwg Wed 09 May 2012, 11:48 pm

Du Preez, very overated. Just my opinion and it won't go down well. All he did was box kick from a lineout and people used to say "Wow that's world class!" Unbelievable.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 09 May 2012, 11:51 pm

That's why he has 65 points in 61 games and was IRB player of the year

by Morgannwg Wed 09 May 2012, 11:58 pm

What year?

by ChequeredJersey Thu 10 May 2012, 12:00 am

I apologise, he was only nominated, 2006

by Morgannwg Thu 10 May 2012, 12:09 am

Good, I see the IRB panel had sense too. He was good when he burst onto the scene and was probably worth his nomination. Since, I have found him to be pretty overated.

by Bullsbok Thu 10 May 2012, 12:18 am

Morgannwg wrote:Good, I see the IRB panel had sense too. He was good when he burst onto the scene and was probably worth his nomination. Since, I have found him to be pretty overated.

*yawn* you dazzle me with your rugby knowledge. If you could not see Du Preez's genius then your views are near worthless.If Graham Henry , Jake the Man ,Nick Mallet ,Robbie Deans rate and all his peers him as one of the greatest Scrummies ever i'm inclined to believe them . you on the other hand are a couch critic, somehow your views fail to move me . good day to you Smile

by Bathite Thu 10 May 2012, 12:24 am

With Bullsbok here. Du Preez is / was such an intelligent player. Had it all and read a game so well

by maestegmafia Thu 10 May 2012, 1:05 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Isn't Gareth Edwards known as a fantastic rugby player but not scrum half? It depends on what you want from a scrum half

Gareth Edwards invented the modern Scrum halfs game. Invented the spin pass too. A fantastic all round rugby player yes but a brilliant Scrum half.

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 10 May 2012, 6:15 am

Morgannwg wrote:Du Preez, very overated. Just my opinion and it won't go down well. All he did was box kick from a lineout and people used to say "Wow that's world class!" Unbelievable.

Fannie Dai Preez now he was a player no?

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 10 May 2012, 9:00 am

Mike Blair was better than Peel, I don't ever remember Peel being on the shortlist for IRB player of the year. In 2008 Mike Blair pretty much carried Scotland by himself.

by geoff998rugby Thu 10 May 2012, 9:03 am

On his pass alone Pienaer is a top class SH

by doctornickolas Thu 10 May 2012, 9:06 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Mike Blair was better than Peel, I don't ever remember Peel being on the shortlist for IRB player of the year. In 2008 Mike Blair pretty much carried Scotland by himself.

No way was Blair ever better than Peel. Peel was outstanding until he went up North and got injured a lot which was why he was ahead of Blair for the Lions.

Blair has been in and out of a Scotland team despite having very average competition for his place.

by yappysnap Thu 10 May 2012, 9:20 am

Bergamasco was one of the best

by mckay1402 Thu 10 May 2012, 9:56 am

There is less space for a scrum half now. They don't get so many opportunities, even since 2005 when peel was so good defenses have tightened up so much that even a good scrum half doesn't get much chance to make a quick break. The break down is more such a mes that they struggle to get clean ball and the scrum is usually on the floor by the time he gets the ball.

Even joost and Gareth would struggle to look good in todays game. That's why big players like Phillips and the Irish fella do so well. You need to be able to stand type to toe with the forward these days to even see the ball.

by Imperialbigdave Thu 10 May 2012, 10:11 am

doctornickolas wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Mike Blair was better than Peel, I don't ever remember Peel being on the shortlist for IRB player of the year. In 2008 Mike Blair pretty much carried Scotland by himself.

No way was Blair ever better than Peel. Peel was outstanding until he went up North and got injured a lot which was why he was ahead of Blair for the Lions.

Blair has been in and out of a Scotland team despite having very average competition for his place.

Blair in 06-08 was outstanding. Granted he tailed off after that.

Oh and this average competition that you speak of also happens to be a lion who many felt unlucky not to get into the test team in 05 (although that was probably for the best considering what a disaster the tests were).

by **Biltong** Thu 10 May 2012, 10:20 am

Perhaps there are no standout scrum half like when joost was around, but we must not forget he had detractors when he went to the world cup in 2003.

He went there with his knee heavily strapped and many argued he wouldn't be able to perform as he was most definitely not 100%.

The same thing happened to Fourie du Preez after his shoulder injury in 2009. He has never been the same again.

Getting back to joost, even though he was rated the best in his era, George Gregan was also world class, Justin Marshall was world class.

Currently you look at guys like Genia who perhaps stands alone in a catagory.

But there are a lot of youngsters coming throuh at the moment who will become stars in the next two years.

In SA Francois hougaard, Sarel Pretorius, Charl Mcleod and Dewald Duvenhage are all class acts.

by fa0019 Thu 10 May 2012, 11:25 am

The problem with being a scrumhalf is that you are only as good as your pack. If you’re on the backfoot the entire game you will be hassled by the opposition backrow all day and most likely you’ll struggle to make an impact.
I remember Dewi Morris taking George Gregan to school in the 95RWC… most people would say that Gregan is far superior but that day with a dominant pack in front of him he put Gregan through hell.

Joost van der Westhuizen would not have had the allowances he got behind a less dominant pack but given he spent his entire career with the bulls and the boks he had the platform to express himself to his full potential. It doesn’t mean that Joost was over-rated… rather he was able to perform to his full potential… unlike players like Mike Blair who live of scraps with Scotland… & yet continues to be a shining light for his side. Then again… the bulls were not the side they are now, during his tenure they didn’t have the strongest pack in SA by far.

Personally I reckon Genia is right up there with the best players since the professional era. He has not been blessed with a monster pack and is often on the backfoot… yet he is a real smart operator and always has his eyes for a gap.

Du Preez is far from being over rated. The guy should have won the 09 IRB world player of the year award… yet the panel were so far up McCaw’s backside (who spend ¾ of the year out injured… and when he did he hardly was back to his best) they once again lowered the reputation of the award… just like when they awarded Dusautior it last year… in essence they are undermining the award.

by **Biltong** Thu 10 May 2012, 11:42 am

Du Preez is far from being over rated. The guy should have won the 09 IRB world player of the year award… yet the panel were so far up McCaw’s backside (who spend ¾ of the year out injured… and when he did he hardly was back to his best) they once again lowered the reputation of the award… just like when they awarded Dusautior it last year… in essence they are undermining the award.

.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 10 May 2012, 11:53 am

biltongbek wrote:
Du Preez is far from being over rated. The guy should have won the 09 IRB world player of the year award… yet the panel were so far up McCaw’s backside (who spend ¾ of the year out injured… and when he did he hardly was back to his best) they once again lowered the reputation of the award… just like when they awarded Dusautior it last year… in essence they are undermining the award.
.

True. McCaw only won in 09 because the committee felt guilty at him missing out in '08

by fa0019 Thu 10 May 2012, 12:06 pm

McCaw deserves all the plaudits he gets, don't get wrong... although Williams did have a standout year in 08 and his glitzy performances were difficult to ignore.

What I find amazing is how the panel is filled by greats of the games such as Frans Pienaar and John Eales and yet they still seem to get star-struck/make sympathetic choices.

by **Biltong** Thu 10 May 2012, 12:09 pm

It's just an award, for some it means something for others it is just another certificate on the wall.

My son asked me after the match yesterday why there is a man of the match award after they played their first league game yesterday.

He struggled to understand why, becuase he believes if you win everyone plays well.

How's that for perception from an 8 year old.

by sean.c Thu 10 May 2012, 12:16 pm

fa0019 wrote:The guy should have won the 09 IRB world player of the year award… yet the panel were so far up McCaw’s backside (who spend ¾ of the year out injured… and when he did he hardly was back to his best) they once again lowered the reputation of the award… just like when they awarded Dusautior it last year… in essence they are undermining the award.

You are mistaken there, O'Driscoll should have won that award. Never mind his outstanding club form for Leinster he had arguably his best ever year in an Irish shirt leading his team to their first slam in over 50 years

by fa0019 Thu 10 May 2012, 12:17 pm

You should show him a career highlights video of Maisiekind.

Proof that teams that win it all sometimes still do so despite carrying sub standard players on their backs.

Its amazing that the bulls have done so well yet continued to play guys like these ... their fellow teammates are better than we give them credit for... not that I'd admit that to any bulls fans.

Glory loving moffie's the lot of them!!! Smile

PS - am I allowed to say that?

by fa0019 Thu 10 May 2012, 12:18 pm

sean.c

I think the lions tour in 09 let him down. Wasn't bad but wasn't stand out in the biggest series of the year. Probably not enough to make it over the line IMO.

by Comfort Thu 10 May 2012, 12:18 pm

Am I one of the few who thinks Phillips is actually very, very good? Perhaps not at the **'basics' of scrumhalf play, but his importance to the welsh game over the last 2/3 years and trhe next couple of years?

Danny Care had the potential to be world class.

Genia's nearly there, when on form hes brilliant.

Yachvilli is world class. Parra's not far off.

Blairs another who could be deemed world class if he puts a good run together.

**Basics of scrumhalf play is now very subjective, the screaming of "quick ball" is all well and good if theres space. How often is there space on the field in a test match?

by sean.c Thu 10 May 2012, 12:21 pm

fa0019 wrote:sean.c

I think the lions tour in 09 let him down. Wasn't bad but wasn't stand out in the biggest series of the year. Probably not enough to make it over the line IMO.

I still think he should have won it but I agree with you that McCaw shouldnt have won it.

by fa0019 Thu 10 May 2012, 12:23 pm

I do agree that BOD and Du Preez were the 2 who should have been fighting it out at the IRB Panel.

If I recall on the old 606 forum those were the 2 at the time who were being mentioned the most.

by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 10 May 2012, 5:08 pm

What was wrong with giving it to Dusatoir last year? He wasn't my choice, granted, (I think Kaino was the most consistent last year) but he's a player that certainly is difficult to argue against taking national bias out of it. If not Dusatoir then who?

I think like countries, world rugby goes in cycles with positions. Look at blindside flanker in world rugby at the moment. Incredible depth in world class players. Go back a few years and there wasn't nearly the same. Look at flyhalf at the moment and you have the reverse situation. There was Carter and then daylight (he's playing 12 now and still not right) but go a few years back and there was a lot more to choose from.

Also it's impossible to compare scrumhalves like Edwards and the modern era. You had sniping runs and breaking the line willy nilly back then. Not saying Edwards wasn't a special player but modern defences are a lot more organised. A scrumhalf can come into play when his pack is dominating and getting in behind the defensive line of the opposition. How often does that happen nowadays. Most attack comes from recycled ball and turnovers are the main cause of open play nowadays.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 10 May 2012, 5:10 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:Du Preez, very overated. Just my opinion and it won't go down well. All he did was box kick from a lineout and people used to say "Wow that's world class!" Unbelievable.

Fannie Dai Preez now he was a player no?

by fa0019 Thu 10 May 2012, 5:27 pm

Kia

It wasn't because he arguably shouldn't have been in the shortlist.... it was the way they awarded it to him.

It just seemed like a sympathy vote.

Had the result and the final been different, regardless of how he or any others had played I severely doubt that Dusautoir would have taken the award.

Kaino or Nonu would have deserved the title if received, no one would have complained about that.

by Bullsbok Thu 10 May 2012, 5:30 pm

Cant be denied Dusatoir was an immmense figure for the French.I personally think he deserved it, Kaino was good but its not too hard to look good in an all black pack if you really try . Dusatoir had to put up with the French who can sometimes just not feel like turning up on the day .

by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 10 May 2012, 5:43 pm

Yeah but Bullsbok once you go down that road of saying a player looks good because of the players around him then we might as well give the award to Parisse each year. Dusatoir has an ability, not just against the ABs, to dominate a game and look as though rugby isn't a team sport. The guy is a machine and a player I respect immensely. I didn't think he was as consistent as say Kaino in 2011 but I have no real gripes about the award. Personally I think that someone out of the World Cup winning team getting the award isn't so much a sympathy vote but a sign of how special the player is. Normally team success dictates individual awards which makes McCaw getting the award in 2009 even stranger to comprehend as the Boks were the best team by far that year, at least in the 3N.

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