Farrell Rejects England

England have failed in their attempts to convince Saracens head coach Andy Farrell to join Stuart Lancaster's backroom staff.

So Farrell won't be joining up with England, I'm a little surprised by this but not disappointed.

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/7667093/Farrell-rejects-England

Surprised too. I thought he was expected to quit? I guess this opens the door for a more attack orientated coach...maybe Catt?

What's more suprising is that according to that report we beat Wales! It's on the internet so it must be true!!!

Farrell could have had a role in both attack and defence for as a coach so with him out of the equation, it would seem that two more coaches may be required.

Mike Catt!

Interesting choice.

HERSH wrote:Mike Catt!

Interesting choice.

Honestly think he could do quite well at England with the current crop of players. How about you Hersh? Who would you like to see?

Nick Mallett!

I think Catts heading to Bath.

I think this could potentially be a blessing in disguise. I think Lancaster was showing loyalty to Farrell rather than trying to get the best person in for the job. If we can get Wayne Smith and Dave Ellis in I think that would make a pretty impressive coaching set up and more than compensate for Lancaster's lack of experience.

Agree with you Toadfish - i really rate Farrell as a coach and motivator, but he will probably gain and develop so much more in the next few years being at Saracens. After all he's only been coaching a couple of years. Maybe Farrell's time will come after the next WC.

Would be interesting to learn the real reason why he said no to England - were the RFU and Saracen's unable to agree compensation? Did Farrell simply choose to stay at Saracens?

I heard that the top blokes at Sarries and the RFU played paper scissors stone to decide.

Toadfish wrote:I think this could potentially be a blessing in disguise. I think Lancaster was showing loyalty to Farrell rather than trying to get the best person in for the job. If we can get Wayne Smith and Dave Ellis in I think that would make a pretty impressive coaching set up and more than compensate for Lancaster's lack of experience.

+1

rugbyfan wrote:Agree with you Toadfish - i really rate Farrell as a coach and motivator, but he will probably gain and develop so much more in the next few years being at Saracens. After all he's only been coaching a couple of years. Maybe Farrell's time will come after the next WC.

Would be interesting to learn the real reason why he said no to England - were the RFU and Saracen's unable to agree compensation? Did Farrell simply choose to stay at Saracens?

I think it's a bit of both.

Is it fair to call it a rejection of England? We don't know the offer that the RFU gave.

Farrell says he has unfinished business with Saracens and he does. He is not the finished article as a coach. He needs to turn Saracens into a proper HC contender, develop Tomkins into a class 13, help his son develop more and rekindle Ashton's form alongside other numerous duties.

The Wigan connection cannot be underestimated for Farrell staying - his son,Tomkins and Ashton.

Personally I believe it's the best choice for England and Saracens.


As Toadfish says Dave Ellis and Wayne Smith should be snapped up immediately.


Personally I am little annoyed with the RFU as it wouldn't surprise me if this Farrell England situation messed around with Saracen's preparation for Quins and Clermont.

Dan Parks has retired from the game but I think he can be a valuable asset as an attack coach for England. He can instill in players an instinct that he had as a player and then all they have to do is do the exact opposite of that instinctual feeling and England´s attack will be humming in no time.

Beshocked you were CREAMED against Clermont. At home. I hardly think you can lay the blame at the door of the RFU. It would have taken a lot more than that to turn that game around............

I think you make some good points Beshocked, as per usual; but not even the most one-eyed supporter would attempt to excuse those defeats by blaming the RFU! It would be akin to blaming the fact that Mars was aligned with Saturn for the same period. Next you'll be getting Derek Accora in to check the players' boots weren't possessed...

On a more serious note I think we can rule Farrell's decision out of the equation. Had he not wanted to join England he would've told Lancaster from the start and not made him look like a Holly Wilaboobie.

Bring in Brian Ashton and Dave Ellis for the SA tour and see what develops would be my suggestion.

No Farrell? Excellent news!

No more stodgey attack played from so deep the full back never has to step into the line with passing so obvious and slow that the opposition defence always has numbers to counter set plays (the two that England had).

Go back to Sarries and get Gustard their defensive and lineout guru (kidnap if necessary) and then start looking for a travelled and intelligent attack coach, preferably one of Smith, Mauger or Gibson.

Beshocked you were CREAMED against Clermont. At home. I hardly think you can lay the blame at the door of the RFU. It would have taken a lot more than that to turn that game around............

The missing flankers and Stevens inability to scrummage would be good indicators as to why Sarries failed to beat Clermont.

Maybe he`s seen the future,that England by the end of the season with several losse safraid that he is going to be made the scape goat.England have to date done well,and I wish them well.BUT 3 tests in SA,followed by a very tough AI`s realisically BOKS 3 zip,and maybe 2 out of 4 AI`s lost.So ,so for a new team hope i`m wrong BUT SA in SA very tough then the All Blacks last match of the Season?All Blacks may have RWC fallout,and a poor 4Ns and will be looking for a clean sweep in Europe to compensate.

I don't think Wayne Smith is available until after the summer tour to South Africa. Therefore bringing in Brian Ashton as temporary Attack Coach and Dave Ellis as defence coach, which a view to making the latter permanent based on performances.

Then by the autumn we should have a very good coaching team assembled...

Head Coach - Stuart Lancaster

Forwards/Scrum Coach - Graham Rowntree

Attack Coach - Wayne Smith

Defence Coach - Dave Ellis

robshaw4england wrote:I don't think Wayne Smith is available until after the summer tour to South Africa. Therefore bringing in Brian Ashton as temporary Attack Coach and Dave Ellis as defence coach, which a view to making the latter permanent based on performances.

Then by the autumn we should have a very good coaching team assembled...

Head Coach - Stuart Lancaster

Forwards/Scrum Coach - Graham Rowntree

Attack Coach - Wayne Smith

Defence Coach - Dave Ellis

+1

That's a smart decision from Farrell senior. It would have been unwise to put himself in a role with a conflict of interest.

rugbyfan wrote:Farrell could have had a role in both attack and defence for as a coach so with him out of the equation, it would seem that two more coaches may be required.

After 6N's i would have said that England would have benefitted from Farrell taking on purely defensive duties, with Wayne Smith coming on board later on in the year to take up attack.

Ideally i would liked to have seen Lancaster, Rowntree, Smith, Farrell. Shame AF didn't go for the England job, but he's a straight talking chap and as always he's worn his buttons on his sleeve. Fair play to him, if anything i think Lancaster and Farrell showed that there is no magic one shot 'cure' to the state of English international Rugby and that includes Farrell himself.

As for who would be the right man for the job for the SA tour before we can retain Smith is another matter completely though

Would anyone want to coach England? Really?

Pretty chuffed to be honest, maybe that means less Sarries influence on the backline and we might actually take the ball at depth and pace, rather than kicking it away.

Let Sarries play their way, but I wouldn't want to watch England play the same, it is so dull and one dimensional.

Thanks for the help Faz and for a tight defence, but lets be honest, you just copied your gameplan from this season onto another team and even used 75% of the same personnel!

tatterd wrote:Beshocked you were CREAMED against Clermont. At home. I hardly think you can lay the blame at the door of the RFU. It would have taken a lot more than that to turn that game around............

LOL

idris wrote:

tatterd wrote:Beshocked you were CREAMED against Clermont. At home. I hardly think you can lay the blame at the door of the RFU. It would have taken a lot more than that to turn that game around............

LOL

Sounds like what the FA have done to Spurs this year!

Poor old Sarries

Another who agrees that this could be a blessing. Don't get me wrong I appreciate what he did with England in the short term, especially in a defensive sense but feel we need something different if we want to challenge the top SH teams. I also agree with beshocked that he has plenty of unfinished work left to do with Saracens and as proved at the weekend he has a decent challenge on his hands turning them into a European force. Hopefully this also means that the England scrum half's will no longer be instructed to waste time with the balls at the base of rucks when defending or running the clock down!

I can't understand why people call for Mike Catt for offense coach. What has he actually done to deserve this kind of promotion? LI are hardly pulling up tree's at the top of the AP. A top player (and generally decent sounding bloke) doesn't always make a top coach.

I would like to think that Farrel turning down the England full time coaching job could only be a good thing for England in the long term.

Now England have the oppotunity to look at a specialist/ more experience coach. Some people are saying that Dave Ellis would be the best man for the job. If that is so what are England waiting for? lets get him in straight away.

Surprising, but a blessing in disguise if we can get Wayne Smith. He could work wonders with the youngsters.

tatterd wrote:Beshocked you were CREAMED against Clermont. At home. I hardly think you can lay the blame at the door of the RFU. It would have taken a lot more than that to turn that game around............

Yes of course Saracen's loss is all because of the RFU.

No that's not what I said. I said that the RFU having talks with Farrell COULD have affected their preparation for two biggest matches of the season. Only the coaches and players really know if it did.

Saracens lost because the gameplan is limited - no Plan B when Plan A fails, the players didn't perform at their best and arguably some key personnel were missing. Even if we had those key players we wouldn't have beaten Clermont on that performance though.

You might say we were creamed but at least we got to the HC quarter finals unlike numerous teams.

Shame for England. According to Kevin Bowering Andy Farrell made a very big impression on the RFU and in particular Lancaster during the six nations.

Saracens did say they wouldn't let him go when asked during the six nations.

Beshocked,

Plan B? Saracens?
Surely you are joking.

What England needs is a positive attitude not an entirely defensive mode.

Pat Howard for me.

I dont think is a huge blow...

As others have said...there are some good options..though Sam if we cant get Farrell...we might struggle to get Gustard.

Get in Dave Ellis...and a quality Attack coach...some have mentioned having Ashton come in for the Summer SA tour...and i would be happy with that aswell...

Awesome defence...fast improving pack...and intelligent attacking play....game on.....

Portnoy wrote:Beshocked,

Plan B? Saracens?
Surely you are joking.

What England needs is a positive attitude not an entirely defensive mode.

Pat Howard for me.

Isn't he chief Exec of Cricket Australie at the moment?


I think Farrell's decision is the right one for both him and England. He is inexperienced and needs to learn and develop as a coach. He will probably have a role with england in the future - maybe saxons then the main job - but this was the wrong job and the wrong time. He would have learnt and developed on the job, but as people kept saying about MJ learning the job in the England setup is not the right way.

Portnoy wrote:Beshocked,

Plan B? Saracens?
Surely you are joking.

What England needs is a positive attitude not an entirely defensive mode.

Pat Howard for me.

Portnoy I don't understand....

I said Saracens didn't have a Plan B....


No point bringing in these big names like Wayne Smith and Dave Ellis if they don't have the same vision of England progressing.They need to chat with Lancaster and see if there is the potential to work well together.

beshocked wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Beshocked,

Plan B? Saracens?
Surely you are joking.

What England needs is a positive attitude not an entirely defensive mode.

Pat Howard for me.

Portnoy I don't understand....

I said Saracens didn't have a Plan B....


No point bringing in these big names like Wayne Smith and Dave Ellis if they don't have the same vision of England progressing.They need to chat with Lancaster and see if there is the potential to work well together.

True

I quite like the idea of trialling some attack coaches over the summer tour and then deciding after that. If a coach can put together a good attacking plan and systems in that short time then I think they've earned the role.

idris wrote:Would anyone want to coach England? Really?

What, the most succesful NH team of all time?

pressure is tough on any 'england' job, however yep it pays well and we are as oval rightly says the most succesfull NH team.

Its not a job for the faint hearted- but its a winners job- someone how really has what it takes

You had to bite damngoodOvalball didn't you?

Don't feed the trolls.

We need some international games and qucik- its getting all boring on here! mods are having an easy time i bet!

yep, thats true. Its just that some do geniunely need reminding that winning a RWC final and going through the tournament unbeaten is actually more impressive than finishing 4th and losing 4 games!

damngoodOvalball wrote:yep, thats true. Its just that some do geniunely need reminding that winning a RWC final and going through the tournament unbeaten is actually more impressive than finishing 4th and losing 4 games!

Hey, cut Wales some slack! They only lost 3 games in the last world cup. A proud record they share with Japan, Georgia, USA and Fiji (and France!)

idris wrote:Would anyone want to coach England? Really?

I would rather have the England football job - isn't that £6m a year with bonuses and compensation if sacked early thrown into the mix?

I'd take the England rugby job though. Still a very decent salary but not as obscene as the football equivalent.

My staff would include

Me - Head coach

Paul Gustard - Defence and forwards coach

Brian Ashton - Attack coach

Will Greenwood - Skills coach

But as we all know 'on their day Wales can beat anyone', such a shame their four defeats happened on days when it wasn't their day!

HERSH wrote:But as we all know 'on their day Wales can beat anyone', such a shame their four defeats happened on days when it wasn't their day!

Oh look, few days off and HERSH is on his OWN England article, but talking about Wales, again and again and again.

BTW Wales had their day 5 times so far this year...