Luke Fitz to leave Leinster - contract row with IRFU

First topic message reminder :

Irish Times's Gerry Thornley (aka the mouthpiece of the IRFU) writes today that there is deadlock in Luke Fitz's negotiations on a new central contract with the IRFU and that he may be heading to England or France (London Irish being mentioned as one possible destination). Fitz not very happy, it seems, at having his salary cut from 280k to 200k and IRFU not prepared to go higher for a player who at best is going to be a panel member and not part of a starting XV.

IT link - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0327/1224313955286.html

Injuries and loss of form means that Fitz has fallen well down the pecking order for Ireland and also down the pecking order for Leinster. Good form by new young players like Zebo, D Kearney, Gilroy as well as Bowe and Trimble established as Ireland's starting wings means Fitz isn't exactly in a good negotiating position and I would have thought a 200k a year two-year contract is bloody good for a player who's going to be on the fringes for Ireland in the next two years.

I feel sorry for Fitz, it's that long ago since he was the starting wing for the Lions, but injuries have hit him hard and his form as he tried to work his way back in was not great. Maybe best thing for him might be a period outside Ireland.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Mickado wrote:
Leamy is just an example, the same could be said for Paddy Wallace or Jamie Heaslip.

Have you watched Paddy lately? He's the opposite...was rubbish now he's awesome, whereas the other two were awesome now they're rubbish......

Leamy was carrying a long term injury, not rubbish. Paddy Wallace has also been injured a lot.

Nope he was injury free last season in the build up to the RWC and he still wasn't up to much. Agreed he had a good spell in 2008 but this is 2012 and hes nowhere near international standard. Hes been getting a leg up by the IRFU into the squads for years in an area where there are better players.

Its not Leamy's fault, because he was top class a few years ago, but he's a perfect example of whats wrong about the central contracts.

O'Callaghan is the same now. The IRFU are squeezing their moneys worth out of him when there are at least 3 better performing second rows available - Ryan, Tuohy, Toner and possibly McCarthy too.

Your wrong (as usual) Rods. Since his shoulder op when he was out for nearly a year, he had a knee/achilles? injury (picked up in an awesome turnover against Perp. down there) which had him out for another couple of months. Then he had a neck injury and his hip has been troubling him for some time. Said at the end of last season he couldn't play more than 25 mins without pain, but the summer break did him good.

If there were better players around, Heislip would have been dropped at this stage.

I keep telling you, Tuohy is too short for an international 2nd row now as is McCarthy. Toner is getting there and hopefully we will see him get plenty of gametime in the next few weeks.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

By telling them that if they do that then their funding will be cut,the IRFU can put very strict conditions on any money they give out.

Sin é wrote:We'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks what happens with Leo's injury cover

asoreleftshoulder wrote:What does that mean?We don't have any injury cover for Leo Cullen seeing as he's fit.

Listening to the sports news on rte last night, Brad Thorn was described as Leo Cullen's injury cover

Okay so RTE made a mistake but you already knew that.I still don't see how your reply to my statement about how the IRFU could ensure the provinces don't use the central contract money on foreigners makes any sense.What does how Brad Thorn gets on over the next few weeks have anything to do with this.

Stay on topic lads. Don't reply to snide comments and the thread won't go off on rediculous tangents that we've all been bored by in the past.

Mickado wrote:I have Rodders, but that’s not the point. He, like any other player, should have to play his way into the Irish team on merit. Not be picked because he’s the 3rd choice out half.

I concur, my point is that if he was selected on current form it would be merited. Was that always the case? Maybe, maybe not.... but right now hes arguably the best inside centre.

In terms of 3rd choice 10, I agree IHumph, Keatley and Madigan at various times have all been more deserving in that respect.

Sin é wrote:
If there were better players around, Heislip would have been dropped at this stage.

It hasn't happened with DoC or D'Arcy so why would Deccie make an exception with Heaslip

Mick, it might suit the provinces to have the big bad IRFU do the negotiations for the top players who would attract interest from abroad.

roddersm wrote:

Mickado wrote:I have Rodders, but that’s not the point. He, like any other player, should have to play his way into the Irish team on merit. Not be picked because he’s the 3rd choice out half.

I concur, my point is that if he was selected on current form it would be merited. Was that always the case? Maybe, maybe not.... but right now hes arguably the best inside centre.

In terms of 3rd choice 10, I agree IHumph, Keatley and Madigan at various times have all been more deserving in that respect.

Absolutely, he can't be playing any worse than Darce so if he was picked at 12 I wouldn't have batted an eyelid.

Sin é wrote:
Your wrong (as usual) Rods. Since his shoulder op when he was out for nearly a year, he had a knee/achilles? injury (picked up in an awesome turnover against Perp. down there) which had him out for another couple of months. Then he had a neck injury and his hip has been troubling him for some time. Said at the end of last season he couldn't play more than 25 mins without pain, but the summer break did him good.

If hes in that bad of state he shouldn't be near any squad let alone the international one. All the more reason he shouldn't be on the IRFU payroll when there are fit and better players.

If Tuohy is too short then what about POC, Ryan, Doc and Cullen none of whom is more than 1" taller according to official biogs ?

Sin é wrote:Mick, it might suit the provinces to have the big bad IRFU do the negotiations for the top players who would attract interest from abroad.

What? What has that got to do with anything? What makes you think the IRFU are any better at staving off offers on Irish players from abroad than any of the provinces. Would POC be more tempted to move to Perpignan if he had to negotiate with Munster instead of the IRFU?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

By telling them that if they do that then their funding will be cut,the IRFU can put very strict conditions on any money they give out.

Sin é wrote:We'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks what happens with Leo's injury cover

asoreleftshoulder wrote:What does that mean?We don't have any injury cover for Leo Cullen seeing as he's fit.

Listening to the sports news on rte last night, Brad Thorn was described as Leo Cullen's injury cover

Okay so RTE made a mistake but you already knew that.I still don't see how your reply to my statement about how the IRFU could ensure the provinces don't use the central contract money on foreigners makes any sense.What does how Brad Thorn gets on over the next few weeks have anything to do with this.

Not like RTE to make a statement like that unless that is what they were told at some stage - why say whose cover he is?
My point is that if Toner was on central contract, it wouldn't be so easy for Leinster to overlook him and pick Thorn ahead of him.

I just think its an interesting situation and depending on what happens, will explain why the IRFU operate the central contract system the way they do.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:Mick, it might suit the provinces to have the big bad IRFU do the negotiations for the top players who would attract interest from abroad.

What? What has that got to do with anything? What makes you think the IRFU are any better at staving off offers on Irish players from abroad than any of the provinces. Would POC be more tempted to move to Perpignan if he had to negotiate with Munster instead of the IRFU?

Easier for the IRFU to play hardball. Take Luke, Leinster are in the position to say Luke we really want you to stay and when he does hopefully, he won't be hurt by being told that he aint worth the money he is looking for.

As for POC, he could hold Munster up to ransom and create a lot of ill feeling etc in the process. Think its good to have the negotiations slightly removed and probably why players use agents as well.

Sin é wrote:
Not like RTE to make a statement like that unless that is what they were told at some stage - why say whose cover he is?
My point is that if Toner was on central contract, it wouldn't be so easy for Leinster to overlook him and pick Thorn ahead of him.

I just think its an interesting situation and depending on what happens, will explain why the IRFU operate the central contract system the way they do.

You obviously missed the libelling of Fr.Kevin Reynolds http://www.herald.ie/news/our-darkest-day-says-rte-as-investigators-are-sent-in-2942666.html

RTE don't check every single word they broadcast

geoff998rugby wrote:If Tuohy is too short then what about POC, Ryan, Doc and Cullen none of whom is more than 1" taller according to official biogs ?

POC is particularly dynamic and Ryan is 5'7" (interview in the Irish Times a few weeks ago mentioned him going over to Northampton to get measured properly).

From comments here, DOC & Cullen are not international class now anyway. All young 2nd rows seem to be giants now.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:Mick, it might suit the provinces to have the big bad IRFU do the negotiations for the top players who would attract interest from abroad.

What? What has that got to do with anything? What makes you think the IRFU are any better at staving off offers on Irish players from abroad than any of the provinces. Would POC be more tempted to move to Perpignan if he had to negotiate with Munster instead of the IRFU?

Easier for the IRFU to play hardball. Take Luke, Leinster are in the position to say Luke we really want you to stay and when he does hopefully, he won't be hurt by being told that he aint worth the money he is looking for.

As for POC, he could hold Munster up to ransom and create a lot of ill feeling etc in the process. Think its good to have the negotiations slightly removed and probably why players use agents as well.

That's absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep central contracts. If my boss told me that i will have to negotiate a pay rise with a senior director rather than with him because the senior director can play hardball, I'd leave my job. If that's the only reason things are done this way then the idea of central contracting is held together with selotape. I suspect there's more to it than that, but nobody seems to know what it is.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Not like RTE to make a statement like that unless that is what they were told at some stage - why say whose cover he is?
My point is that if Toner was on central contract, it wouldn't be so easy for Leinster to overlook him and pick Thorn ahead of him.

I just think its an interesting situation and depending on what happens, will explain why the IRFU operate the central contract system the way they do.

You obviously missed the libelling of Fr.Kevin Reynolds http://www.herald.ie/news/our-darkest-day-says-rte-as-investigators-are-sent-in-2942666.html

RTE don't check every single word they broadcast

Have I hit a nerve here ?

geoff998rugby wrote:If Tuohy is too short then what about POC, Ryan, Doc and Cullen none of whom is more than 1" taller according to official biogs ?

Or the likes of Brad Thorn and Pascal Pape who actually are 6 foot 5.

What about Mick O'Driscoll Sin?

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:If Tuohy is too short then what about POC, Ryan, Doc and Cullen none of whom is more than 1" taller according to official biogs ?

POC is particularly dynamic and Ryan is 5'7" (interview in the Irish Times a few weeks ago mentioned him going over to Northampton to get measured properly).

From comments here, DOC & Cullen are not international class now anyway. All young 2nd rows seem to be giants now.

5'7 is way to short....besides don't they have tape measures at Munster?

"POC is particularly dynamic"

And Tuohy is not?

Correct me if I'm wrong but all the players are paid by the provinces and then those on central contracts receive money from the IRFU on top of that is that right?

Then could they not have their contracts with the provinces as usual then have the central contracts only a year long so players like leamy who haven't been involved for a while aren't on them?

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:Mick, it might suit the provinces to have the big bad IRFU do the negotiations for the top players who would attract interest from abroad.

What? What has that got to do with anything? What makes you think the IRFU are any better at staving off offers on Irish players from abroad than any of the provinces. Would POC be more tempted to move to Perpignan if he had to negotiate with Munster instead of the IRFU?

Easier for the IRFU to play hardball. Take Luke, Leinster are in the position to say Luke we really want you to stay and when he does hopefully, he won't be hurt by being told that he aint worth the money he is looking for.

As for POC, he could hold Munster up to ransom and create a lot of ill feeling etc in the process. Think its good to have the negotiations slightly removed and probably why players use agents as well.

That's absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep central contracts. If my boss told me that i will have to negotiate a pay rise with a senior director rather than with him because the senior director can play hardball, I'd leave my job. If that's the only reason things are done this way then the idea of central contracting is held together with selotape. I suspect there's more to it than that, but nobody seems to know what it is.

Sport is different to business though. And rugby is the 'ultimate' team sport. Your boss is in a better position anyway to tell you move on as he knows there are plenty of workers willing to take your job. Not the same with someone like BOD (think of his commercial value as well), POC etc.

Munster might also think that they could let one of Ryan/DOC/POC go as Mick O'Driscoll is more than adequate at provincial level.

Contract negotiations with the province would OBVIOUSLY have input from the coaching staff (on your rugby playing ability) and the executive staff (on your commercial value). Happens now with the IRFU, why would it be any different with the provinces. I’m not suggesting Joe Schmidt is the only man in the room playing players that he starts week in week out.

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:If Tuohy is too short then what about POC, Ryan, Doc and Cullen none of whom is more than 1" taller according to official biogs ?

Or the likes of Brad Thorn and Pascal Pape who actually are 6 foot 5.

What about Mick O'Driscoll Sin?

You'll find that there are a few exceptions to every rule. Brad Thorn seems to have managed all of them.

Pape is no Fabian Pelous.

And Mick O'Driscoll is a fine club player, like tuohy and a few others who will get a few international caps.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:If Tuohy is too short then what about POC, Ryan, Doc and Cullen none of whom is more than 1" taller according to official biogs ?

POC is particularly dynamic and Ryan is 5'7" (interview in the Irish Times a few weeks ago mentioned him going over to Northampton to get measured properly).

From comments here, DOC & Cullen are not international class now anyway. All young 2nd rows seem to be giants now.

5'7 is way to short....besides don't they have tape measures at Munster?

Munster have measuring tapes - just they put up misinformation to keep other clubs paws off their players

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Not like RTE to make a statement like that unless that is what they were told at some stage - why say whose cover he is?
My point is that if Toner was on central contract, it wouldn't be so easy for Leinster to overlook him and pick Thorn ahead of him.

I just think its an interesting situation and depending on what happens, will explain why the IRFU operate the central contract system the way they do.

You obviously missed the libelling of Fr.Kevin Reynolds http://www.herald.ie/news/our-darkest-day-says-rte-as-investigators-are-sent-in-2942666.html

RTE don't check every single word they broadcast

Have I hit a nerve here ?

No you've made a comment with no basis in fact and now you're trying to get away from justifing it.

Mickado wrote:Contract negotiations with the province would OBVIOUSLY have input from the coaching staff (on your rugby playing ability) and the executive staff (on your commercial value). Happens now with the IRFU, why would it be any different with the provinces. I’m not suggesting Joe Schmidt is the only man in the room playing players that he starts week in week out.

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

That's his default position,if he can't make a relevant point he interprets statements in a way which suits his arguments then when he's called out for twisting the facts he makes an inflammatory comment or starts a Rog v Sexton debate to avoid answering the original question

Mickado wrote:Contract negotiations with the province would OBVIOUSLY have input from the coaching staff (on your rugby playing ability) and the executive staff (on your commercial value). Happens now with the IRFU, why would it be any different with the provinces. I’m not suggesting Joe Schmidt is the only man in the room playing players that he starts week in week out.

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

I'm sorry if I can't explain it better. I'm not trying to be deliberately anything. It sometimes helps if the negotiations are slightly distant from the parties involved.

First conflict between country & province: Ireland use BOD, Sexton & POC in the O2 ad. O2 are probably paying exclusive rights for those three, which would mean that the provinces could use them, even though they are paying them.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:If Tuohy is too short then what about POC, Ryan, Doc and Cullen none of whom is more than 1" taller according to official biogs ?

Or the likes of Brad Thorn and Pascal Pape who actually are 6 foot 5.

What about Mick O'Driscoll Sin?

You'll find that there are a few exceptions to every rule. Brad Thorn seems to have managed all of them.

Pape is no Fabian Pelous.

And Mick O'Driscoll is a fine club player, like tuohy and a few others who will get a few international caps.

Yeah he is no Fabian Pelous.. He is Pascal Pape..

Why would Tuohy's height affect him internationally? Is being an inch smaller than the rest going to affect his confidence or something?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Not like RTE to make a statement like that unless that is what they were told at some stage - why say whose cover he is?
My point is that if Toner was on central contract, it wouldn't be so easy for Leinster to overlook him and pick Thorn ahead of him.

I just think its an interesting situation and depending on what happens, will explain why the IRFU operate the central contract system the way they do.

You obviously missed the libelling of Fr.Kevin Reynolds http://www.herald.ie/news/our-darkest-day-says-rte-as-investigators-are-sent-in-2942666.html

RTE don't check every single word they broadcast

Have I hit a nerve here ?

No you've made a comment with no basis in fact and now you're trying to get away from justifing it.

Its a fact that RTE described Brad Thorn as cover for Leo Cullen.

Its not a fact that RTE don't check every single word that it broadcasts.

Its hilarious that you would intimate that its libelous to say that describing Brad Thorn is Leo Cullen's cover.

Sin é wrote:

No you've made a comment with no basis in fact and now you're trying to get away from justifing it.

Sin é wrote:Its a fact that RTE described Brad Thorn as cover for Leo Cullen.

Its not a fact that RTE don't check every single word that it broadcasts.

Its hilarious that you would intimate that its libelous to say that describing Brad Thorn is Leo Cullen's cover.

I'm amazed that you would think I was saying that it's libelous to describe Brad Thorn as Leo Cullen's cover.

Anyone who wasn't being deliberately obtuse would realise that I was merely pointing out that RTE have prior history of broadcasting something that turned out to be incorrect,so we can then say their is a chance that RTE decribing Thorn in that way is also incorrect.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:If Tuohy is too short then what about POC, Ryan, Doc and Cullen none of whom is more than 1" taller according to official biogs ?

Or the likes of Brad Thorn and Pascal Pape who actually are 6 foot 5.

What about Mick O'Driscoll Sin?

You'll find that there are a few exceptions to every rule. Brad Thorn seems to have managed all of them.

Pape is no Fabian Pelous.

And Mick O'Driscoll is a fine club player, like tuohy and a few others who will get a few international caps.

Yeah he is no Fabian Pelous.. He is Pascal Pape..

Why would Tuohy's height affect him internationally? Is being an inch smaller than the rest going to affect his confidence or something?

Wouldn't have the same stretch as guys taller than him (he may have long arms though )

The average height of an international 2nd row is about 6'7/6'8" now. 6'6" is really the minimum for an international 2nd row. ie, good young 2nd rows like Richie Grey: 6'10", Courtney Lawes: 6'7"

ASLS must be losing the argument yet again. Given he has started insulting people....tut tut... insult removed

DOD wrote:ASLS must be losing the argument yet again. Given he has started insulting people....tut tut...very juvenile.

Lol nice try,how about contradicting my points with actual debate.You've yet to try that approach.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No you've made a comment with no basis in fact and now you're trying to get away from justifing it.

Sin é wrote:Its a fact that RTE described Brad Thorn as cover for Leo Cullen.

Its not a fact that RTE don't check every single word that it broadcasts.

Its hilarious that you would intimate that its libelous to say that describing Brad Thorn is Leo Cullen's cover.

Its retarded that you would think I was saying that it's libelous to describe Brad Thorn as Leo Cullen's cover.

Anyone who wasn't being deliberately obtuse would realise that I was merely pointing out that RTE have prior history of broadcasting something that turned out to be incorrect,so we can then say their is a chance that RTE decribing Thorn in that way is also incorrect.

I thought your libel example a bit extreme to be honest.

Sorry for finding it remarkable that RTE would say that Brad Thorn (described as Leo Cullen's cover) could be starting with Leo Cullen

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Contract negotiations with the province would OBVIOUSLY have input from the coaching staff (on your rugby playing ability) and the executive staff (on your commercial value). Happens now with the IRFU, why would it be any different with the provinces. I’m not suggesting Joe Schmidt is the only man in the room playing players that he starts week in week out.

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

I'm sorry if I can't explain it better. I'm not trying to be deliberately anything. It sometimes helps if the negotiations are slightly distant from the parties involved.

First conflict between country & province: Ireland use BOD, Sexton & POC in the O2 ad. O2 are probably paying exclusive rights for those three, which would mean that the provinces could use them, even though they are paying them.

Simple fix for that. The IRFU are indirectly paying players wages, therefore they must agree to any use of the players image for commercial purposes. If they believe there will be a conflict of interests i.e. Ronan O’Gara wants to flog newbridge silver but the IRFU has a sponsorship deal with their competitor then the deal cannot be sanctioned by them.

These are challenges to the proposal of letting the provinces pay their players what they want. They’re not obstacles.

Sin é wrote:
I thought your libel example a bit extreme to be honest.

Sorry for finding it remarkable that RTE would say that Brad Thorn (described as Leo Cullen's cover) could be starting with Leo Cullen

You're doing it again,what does the fact that RTE called Brad Thorn LEo Cullens injury cover have to do with my statement that the IRFU could stop Munster bring ing in Brad Thorn and leaving ryan and DoC on the bench " By telling them that if they do that then their funding will be cut,the IRFU can put very strict conditions on any money they give out."

DOD wrote:ASLS must be losing the argument yet again. Given he has started insulting people....tut tut...very juvenile.

On the international thread about Ireland it says under your post "insult removed".

You really are something else.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

DOD wrote:ASLS must be losing the argument yet again. Given he has started insulting people....tut tut...very juvenile.

On the international thread about Ireland it says under your post "insult removed".

You really are something else.

DOD never lets insult removed get in the way of his ranting.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Contract negotiations with the province would OBVIOUSLY have input from the coaching staff (on your rugby playing ability) and the executive staff (on your commercial value). Happens now with the IRFU, why would it be any different with the provinces. I’m not suggesting Joe Schmidt is the only man in the room playing players that he starts week in week out.

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

I'm sorry if I can't explain it better. I'm not trying to be deliberately anything. It sometimes helps if the negotiations are slightly distant from the parties involved.

First conflict between country & province: Ireland use BOD, Sexton & POC in the O2 ad. O2 are probably paying exclusive rights for those three, which would mean that the provinces could use them, even though they are paying them.

Simple fix for that. The IRFU are indirectly paying players wages, therefore they must agree to any use of the players image for commercial purposes. If they believe there will be a conflict of interests i.e. Ronan O’Gara wants to flog newbridge silver but the IRFU has a sponsorship deal with their competitor then the deal cannot be sanctioned by them.

These are challenges to the proposal of letting the provinces pay their players what they want. They’re not obstacles.

The more I read this thread, the more I understand why the IRFU want to keep tight control of the core of the internationals. They want everyone's loyalty (supporters & players) to be to Ireland first of all (it pays the bills remember). Players need to know who they have to impress and that is who signs the cheques. Rugby here is becoming a little bit like soccer, with club team's now getting the loyalty.

O2 may have exclusive rights over BOD, Sexton & BOD (don't see them appear in any other ads). POC used to do the Milk ad and BOD the credit union. I see Healy is doing some bars recently.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Contract negotiations with the province would OBVIOUSLY have input from the coaching staff (on your rugby playing ability) and the executive staff (on your commercial value). Happens now with the IRFU, why would it be any different with the provinces. I’m not suggesting Joe Schmidt is the only man in the room playing players that he starts week in week out.

You’re being deliberately obtuse.

I'm sorry if I can't explain it better. I'm not trying to be deliberately anything. It sometimes helps if the negotiations are slightly distant from the parties involved.

First conflict between country & province: Ireland use BOD, Sexton & POC in the O2 ad. O2 are probably paying exclusive rights for those three, which would mean that the provinces could use them, even though they are paying them.

Simple fix for that. The IRFU are indirectly paying players wages, therefore they must agree to any use of the players image for commercial purposes. If they believe there will be a conflict of interests i.e. Ronan O’Gara wants to flog newbridge silver but the IRFU has a sponsorship deal with their competitor then the deal cannot be sanctioned by them.

These are challenges to the proposal of letting the provinces pay their players what they want. They’re not obstacles.

The more I read this thread, the more I understand why the IRFU want to keep tight control of the core of the internationals. They want everyone's loyalty (supporters & players) to be to Ireland first of all (it pays the bills remember). Players need to know who they have to impress and that is who signs the cheques. Rugby here is becoming a little bit like soccer, with club team's now getting the loyalty.

O2 may have exclusive rights over BOD, Sexton & BOD (don't see them appear in any other ads). POC used to do the Milk ad and BOD the credit union. I see Healy is doing some bars recently.

Chunky Mars Bars?

The IRFU own the provinces and have exclusive rights to all the players regardless of whether they are on central contracts or not.

The purpose of the contracts is to keep certain players deemed key to the national side playing in Ireland.

The problem is that the players who are most important can change very quickly based on form and fitness and the national coaches need to be able to select the best players without pressure to utilise the central contracted players to get a return on the IRFUs investment.

If that’s the case then why aren’t all Irish eligible players contracted centrally?

Look, as I’ve pointed out already, the problem with central contracting is that it locks in a hierarchy of players for the duration of their contract.

Either
Everyone is centrally contracted (with the provinces giving their entire wage bill to the IRFU to pay everyone)
Or
Nobody is centrally contracted (with the IRFU giving their entire wage bill to the provinces to pay everyone)

Picking 20 or so players, signing them for 2 or 3 years and basically saying that these are the players for Ireland is incredibly short sighted and reduces the atmosphere of meritocracy. All it does is give players who have the contracts a cushie number where they are more likely to get picked because they’re in the “golden circle”.

roddersm wrote:The IRFU own the provinces and have exclusive rights to all the players regardless of whether they are on central contracts or not.

The purpose of the contracts is to keep certain players deemed key to the national side playing in Ireland.

The problem is that the players who are most important can change very quickly based on form and fitness and the national coaches need to be able to select the best players without pressure to utilise the central contracted players to get a return on the IRFUs investment.

That's what i've been trying to say. Well put.

Mickado wrote:If that’s the case then why aren’t all Irish eligible players contracted centrally?

Look, as I’ve pointed out already, the problem with central contracting is that it locks in a hierarchy of players for the duration of their contract.

Either
Everyone is centrally contracted (with the provinces giving their entire wage bill to the IRFU to pay everyone)
Or
Nobody is centrally contracted (with the IRFU giving their entire wage bill to the provinces to pay everyone)

Picking 20 or so players, signing them for 2 or 3 years and basically saying that these are the players for Ireland is incredibly short sighted and reduces the atmosphere of meritocracy. All it does is give players who have the contracts a cushie number where they are more likely to get picked because they’re in the “golden circle”.

Giving the elite group of players a contract also helps the clubs as it enables the club to plan for certain players to be away for different amounts of time of the year. For instance, Munster will hang onto 6 locks as 3 of them can be missing at some times during the year.

And it didn't stop Fergus McFadden going to the world cup instead of Luke Fitz. or Murray from being ahead of the rest of the senior players (Murray is on his first contract with Munster so is probably on peanuts in comparison to the rest of them). Sean O'Brien has been starting ahead of Leamy and D'Arcy ahead of Wallace.

That's madness Sin, Munster keep 6 locks because 3 of them can be missing time during the year. The Ireland squad only needs 4 locks so what do the rest of the provinces do? Doesn't that send a message that the 3 players in Munster are in favour, and will be in favour until their contract is up? Is that the right message to send players in a supposed meritocracy?

What if the entire Leinster backrow were centrally contracted, would that not send a message to the likes of O'Mahoney or Henry that you'll have to do more than play better than your peirs to make the team?

Mickado wrote:That's madness Sin, Munster keep 6 locks because 3 of them can be missing time during the year. The Ireland squad only needs 4 locks so what do the rest of the provinces do? Doesn't that send a message that the 3 players in Munster are in favour, and will be in favour until their contract is up? Is that the right message to send players in a supposed meritocracy?

Its not just being away a lot, its injury as well. When it comes to the Magners, POC or BOD rarely play games.
This season so far in the Magners:
POC = 3 games (6 games in the HCup)
D Ryan = 5 magners + 6 HCup
MOD = 15 games (+ 1 HCup as sub)
Billy Holland = 15 games.

By the time Nagle or O'Callaghan are ready two or three of them will be coming up to retirement.

What if the entire Leinster backrow were centrally contracted, would that not send a message to the likes of O'Mahoney or Henry that you'll have to do more than play better than your peirs to make the team?

Its worked for Sean O'Brien and Gordon D'Arcy. The important thing is that O'Mahony & Henry know they have to perform and the Ireland backrow know that there are a few young lads who want their spot.

I believe, as Ive said in an article on it, that the IRFU will have to loosen their control of the provinces in the next 5/10 years. They will still have to contribute, by paying the players who play for, or are released to - the Irish squad. And/or, by paying the provinces for their services on a pay-by-play basis. Far more equitable and logical business-wise, than tying up individual players for one or 2 years - some, who are well past their international sell-by date. I can mention 4. Its ridiculous.

They will still have to help or fully-finance, our 4 academies. Its what feeds their whole show. I think this nut can be cracked by common and agreeable business negotiation. There is no one fix. It has to thought through and implemented, by a top Sports Management Consultancy, the IRFU and with the provinces themselves.

I just think the likes of Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Connacht, should be enabled to get more sponsorship from outside - unfettered by the IRFU. Be more autonomous. Sell their product European-wide and Worldwide, as it grows in popularity. Doesn't have to be a complete break. Just be less reliant on the IRFU. The IRFU is styming that and wants total control. Feck this Socialistic body. Let my province FREE.

It will happen anyway. Its just a matter of time. What form it will take, no one knows yet. But it would be far better to discuss it now, at Provincial & National level, rather than having provincial CEOs and coaches, do their nut in frustration at being shackled in the future.

Luke Fitz - sponsored by Nivea. Paul O Connell - sponsored by McEnerny Tractors. BOD, sponsored by the Angels...

Damn, i am always too late for the insults

eirebilly wrote:Damn, i am always too late for the insults

Ah Billy mo chara.. Ok...

Feic off ya Cloggie-bogger!