LOCKS- Greatest ever XV as voted by 606v2

Argh! I've deleted this topic twice now!

Same rules as before, Richard Hill was our Blindside giving a team of

15- Cullen/JPR
14- Lomu
13- O'Driscoll/Sella
12- Horan/ O'Driscoll
11- Campese
10- Carter
9- Edwards
8- Brooke
7- Jones
6- Hill

Subs = JPR/Cullen/Shane, Sella/Horan/John, vd Westhuizen, McCaw/Dallalgio

So now onto locks. Pick 2 please, unless you really can't decide. I haven't split the list into enforcers/lineout experts or 1st/2nd jumpers, but feel free to take the balance into account when you vote. Please post Other and state your choice if your choice is not available.

Difficult one this one. You have lifting in the lineouts now so natural jumpers like Ian Jones don´t count for much.

I´d go for between John Eales and Victor Matfield for the athletic locks and MJ and Pine Tree for grunt.

John Eales but only because his goalkicking was a lot better and Pine Tree because he did things that were before his time and watching him run with the ball in one hand and make it look like a coconut are forever etched in my mind.

I've gone for MJ as an enforcer type, but am torn between Du Preez and Eales as my lineout jumper, as both were pretty complete players. I'd like Du Preez on the bench though as back row cover!

I bet you a hundred to one victor Matfield won't get this.

biltongbek wrote:I bet you a hundred to one victor Matfield won't get this.

I don't take that bet. I'm guessing you want him to?

I don't really care too much, i am really being facecious.

So far not a South african in sight of the "all time best ever"

Bit hard to believe though.

Second name John Eales. The guy had it all

Well, with only 2 Saffers on the forum it is always going to be a bit harder for them to get in!

Who did you pick CJ?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Well, with only 2 Saffers on the forum it is always going to be a bit harder for them to get in!

without a doubt, that is why I say these lists are subjective.

Du Preez to cheer up Biltong

Really, you are so kind

It's not like I didn't put any Saffers on the lists, to be fair!

Well i am sure biltong appreciated it

ChequeredJersey wrote:It's not like I didn't put any Saffers on the lists, to be fair!

nothing wrong with your list, CJ.

Actually, CJ has made some very good lists

For me Eales and Matfield by a street.
Id say Matfield in my mind is the greatest Bok in the pro era.
Meads is always voted no.1 in kiwi polls as the greatest AB and once again confirmed in a nz herald poll last week. I still rate Jones Fitzy Lomu and McCaw ahead of him. He never gets anywhere on these though.
Its certainly subjective and just a bit of fun really. The polls seem to reflect our posters as a collective intelligence more than the players themselves.

Taylorman wrote:For me Eales and Matfield by a street.
Id say Matfield in my mind is the greatest Bok in the pro era.
Meads is always voted no.1 in kiwi polls as the greatest AB and once again confirmed in a nz herald poll last week. I still rate Jones Fitzy Lomu and McCaw ahead of him. He never gets anywhere on these though.
Its certainly subjective and just a bit of fun really. The polls seem to reflect our posters as a collective intelligence more than the players themselves.

What do you mean

I've gone for Eales and Du preez. I have seen clips of Du preez and he looks like a force. Eales is just brilliant

eirebilly wrote:Actually, CJ has made some very good lists

Yes the lists are very good. Me suspects a fair bit of effort is going into picking them so well done CJ. Havnt seen C Lamertons name for a while. Captain of that horrid lions tour here in 66.

Hee hee, how dumb am i? Only just realised you could pick two.

Victor Matfield was my second choice

Taylorman wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Actually, CJ has made some very good lists

Yes the lists are very good. Me suspects a fair bit of effort is going into picking them so well done CJ. Havnt seen C Lamertons name for a while. Captain of that horrid lions tour here in 66.

A hell of alot of thought, CJ has done a very good job.

Thanks guys, it's been an education frankly, and a good procrastinator between the work I am actually meant to be doing!

That place next to Eales is looking very up for grabs!

Matfield and Eales for me, with Johnson a close third.

Fair play,CJ has done a mighty fine job.Looking back and picking out standout players.All apart from Mike Cambell-Lamberton who was a fair to rubbish player,to be honest.

Saffers might be a bit handicapped by the fact that 'greatest evers' tend to be the top players from their own country's long history of players over good times and bad, then mix it with the best from other country's. That SA only re-entered the international fold quite recently just makes it a bit harder to say that x or y Saffer was an all time great.

Johnson and Eales for me by a distance....with Matfield and Botha next.

I wouldnt normally pick someone up so highly but if hes lucky to keep going in 15 years Ritchie Gray could surpass the lot....

SimonofSurrey wrote:Saffers might be a bit handicapped by the fact that 'greatest evers' tend to be the top players from their own country's long history of players over good times and bad, then mix it with the best from other country's. That SA only re-entered the international fold quite recently just makes it a bit harder to say that x or y Saffer was an all time great.

Simon, that is not a very good argument.

SA was out for 10 years.

But as CJ said earlier, the lack of South Africans on the forum will never favour a Springbok player.

Which is fine.

I look at that list and smile,where are Johan Claasaen or Avril Malan?very few names pre-Pro Era from NZ or SA.Just a few All Blacks not mentioned in there day rated World number one or near it.
Bob Duff,TinyWhite,Tiny Hill,Stan Meads[considered by some better than Colin].,Alan Stewart,Chris Jack,Pole Whiting,Andy Haden to name a few.
ColinMeads from about 1957/8-1971 was rated THE Worlds number one.In
1971 he played with virtually one arm versus the Lions.Had he toured in1972-3
to UK.THAT tour would probably have been better than it was.
Crittle and Rob Heming were both highly rated OZ locks.Frik DuPreez and Brian Lochore were great players,Neither were great Locks they were "In betweeners",utility men at Lock/6/8.
Most of the NH names on that list would`nt rate as Worlds best or anywhere near it.They were just good by NH standards.
I have`nt voted for any one but Matfield and Botha are probably the best of the
current pair.Martin Johnson for most of his career,Ali Williams in 2008,Chris Jack 2005/6.Brad Thorn THE best grunt Lock of the last few years.
John Eales in his time,Tiny White and Claasans in there period,Colin Meads,Peter Whiting,and Andy Haden in theres.
I don`y know if Whiting and Haden ever played together at test level,if they did in the 1970`s I would have gone for them.

Willie John and Jonno for me

My choice is in no paticualy order.

Martin Johnson, John Eales, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha.

Their shoukld also be room for Chris Jack, Ali Williams.

majesticimperialman

Ali Williams would get on the list of best in professional era... but not Chris Jack (journeyman).

Jack was displaced from the Saracens team by no other than Steve Borthwick. Then came down to the Cape where he played Currie Cup and was well below average.

... anyhow

Eales & Johnson for me... the perfect combination of brains and brawn.

Surprised there is no Mark Andrews on the list though... his combinations with Weise were the precursor to Bakkies & Matfield.

Obviously going to be unfair on the older players, from talking to some elder statesmen in the past, Gordon Brown would be way up on the list and was very well respected.... and I ain't talking about the man who in his own words in 2008 'saved the world uh I mean the banks'.

Fa0019 Chris Jack was very good before going to NH postRWC 2007,was at his best 2005-6.Played for Western Province in the Currie Cup,and often won man of the match awards.They wanted to sign him up for a longer contract but he was NZ bound[so he was`nt that bad].I agree he never regained his 2005/6 level.Also agree with you about Mark Andrews.

Colin Meads for me primarily cos he was voted as the greatest ever All Black.
Never saw him play but Sir Colin was, and still is, held in the highest regard by all NZ fans.
Out of the players i have seen play John Eales would get my vote.
In todays parlance the man had perhaps the best "skill set" for a lock that you would ever want. U name it he could do it. The injury time penalty he kicked to retain the Bledisloe Cup in wellington 2000 showed the man could do anything.

Very surprised Meads and Matfield aren't near Eales and Johnson.

It is the nature of the geography of posters disney.

I should have put Andrews in there. Other than that, any list on a modern, NH website is going to have a modern NH bias, emack. Any of those in particular you would like added?

Also if it makes Biltong feel better, if we consider the quality of team that just SA could put out- something roughly like this

15- Montgomery/Andre Joubert
14- Chester Williams/Ray Mordt
13- Danie Gerber/Roux
12-John Gainsford/Fourie
11- Habana/Gerrie Germishuys
10- Naas Botha/ Bennie Osler
9- vd Westhuizen/Craven
8- du Plessis/
7- Pienaar/Smith
6- Kruger/Ellis
5- Matfield/du Preez
4- Botha/Andrews

I'm pretty sure it could run the 606 team for its money, as could a best of team of most other big nations. It's pretty close margins in terms of the very top players

What about Phil May who was in the great Wales team that won the triple crown in 1988. Also how about the Scottish locks Damian Cronin and Chris Gray who played in the 1990 Grand Slam season, the tall Australian ball winning forward Steve Cutler, New Zealander Murray Pierce and Welshman Allan Martin.

Perhaps...but not without a front row it wouldnt...

On that... Bismarck was huge today. The try through the middle was awesome and he's one of those who just have that presence around the field.

Taylorman wrote:Perhaps...but not without a front row it wouldnt...

On that... Bismarck was huge today. The try through the middle was awesome and he's one of those who just have that presence around the field.

Well, this team doesn't have a front row yet either, and I suspect at least 1 if not more of that front row will be South African!

CJ, I appreciate your efforts mate, but don't hold your breath though.

It is fine, once the team has been announced I will have all my South Africans available for a virtual match off.

So let this run along niclely, I'll put the likes of Matfield and Du Preez against MJ and J Eales anyday.

biltongbek wrote:CJ, I appreciate your efforts mate, but don't hold your breath though.

It is fine, once the team has been announced I will have all my South Africans available for a virtual match off.

So let this run along niclely, I'll put the likes of Matfield and Du Preez against MJ and J Eales anyday.

South Africa had excellent locks during the apartheid era of the 1980's with guys such as Louis Moolman, Hennie Bekker, Schalk Burger, de Villliers Visser any of whom could give the likes of MJ and Eales a run for their money any day of the week.

Willy John for his ability and as a captain.

To me, as i have said before, John Eales was the greatest rugby player ever so he is a shoe in.

I'll have him and Willy John then

Pinetree and du Preez for me - they scared the shoite out of everyone and that's what locks are supposed to do.

Feel very bad leaving out Nobody though. First name on the bench.

Some brilliant players there. Can't really chose between Willie John, Johnson, Eales, Matfield and O'Connell and for different reasons Brad Thorn.

Does anyone else think that Paul O'Connell is a better player than Martin Johnson was? I think he is a better athlete and better all round second row than Johnson in his pomp. Johnson was a better captain though for me.

I'll go with O'Connell and Matfield, mainly because Willie John was before my time and I've watched more of them than the others.

roddersm

If Johnson was 10 years younger and hadn't started his game in the amateur era he would have been more athletic too... its a different game these days.

Johnson is certainly a class above IMO... a lot of players in that ENG era get well deserved kudos but Johnson was the key player. Whenever he didn't play... ENG lost, they could replicate him as a player but not as a captain.