Wales TH options

First topic message reminder :

I am not one of those who is even worrying about the pragmatic, attritional manner of the GS. The style it was won in places us in a far better place going forward that the swashbuckling slams of the past. This championship win represents a sizeable building block for the next 3 years. The style will come Mr Barnes!!!
The strength is there in considerable depth - except - probably the most important position on the park.
On sat we saw a decent English scrum absolutely destroy Ireland especially after Mike Ross went off. So the lack of depth in just one position can be crucial.

Where is the next Adam Jones? At the moment we are relying on his fitness and someday he will be hanging up his considerable boots and taking a well deserved rest. We are unlikely to find anothe phenomenon in the principality like him but there doesn't seem to be any backup who could even do just a decent job at international level. Without that I don't think we can realistically put up a sustained long term challenge to the big 3

Suprised no one has mentioned Buck.

Nathan Buck
DOB 17/08/1989 (22)
Height 1.91 m (6' 3")
Weight 124 kg (19 st 7 lb)
Position Tighthead Prop

Rees is probably still the long term front runner but at least Buck is a mainstay in the Dragons side at the moment so hes getting experience. Needs to get fitter though.

rugbydreamer wrote:The 4 hookers at the Scarlets: 3 have been away on Wales duty, if the WRU had moved our other one, we wouldn't have had any hookers at all!

Tis a dangerous road to take players from regions and dish them out, solely just down to call ups and injury cover.

I know what you are saying regarding Regions needing cover. But the whole point should be that the burden is shared between the 4 Regions. Currently the Dragons supply just 2 with the Blues & Scarlets making up a majority of the senior international side.

Wales generally release the players outside of the 22 back to the Regions for gametime so essentially each region should only lose 5/6 players which should be managable. The system does not work well if one or two sides significanly get burdened during call ups.

Peter Thomas (Blues owner) is the one grumbeling the most about this. He wants to see the WRU fund the best players. I dont think he's thought this through because if I was the WRU I would take centrally contracted players and distribute them evenly amongst the 4 sides. So that would see both the Scarlets and Blues lose quality not gain it. For example given that Rees and Owens both are in the starting lineup (ie 22) its safe to assume both would not be at the Scarlets.

Welshmushroom wrote:Suprised no one has mentioned Buck.

Nathan Buck
DOB 17/08/1989 (22)
Height 1.91 m (6' 3")
Weight 124 kg (19 st 7 lb)
Position Tighthead Prop

Rees is probably still the long term front runner but at least Buck is a mainstay in the Dragons side at the moment so hes getting experience. Needs to get fitter though.

I am sorry to forget a man there Mushroom but yes Nathan is in the running. Not been overly impressed with him as yet. But he has size and being a regular at the Dragons much in his favour.

Welshmushroom wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:The 4 hookers at the Scarlets: 3 have been away on Wales duty, if the WRU had moved our other one, we wouldn't have had any hookers at all!

Tis a dangerous road to take players from regions and dish them out, solely just down to call ups and injury cover.

I know what you are saying regarding Regions needing cover. But the whole point should be that the burden is shared between the 4 Regions. Currently the Dragons supply just 2 with the Blues & Scarlets making up a majority of the senior international side.

Wales generally release the players outside of the 22 back to the Regions for gametime so essentially each region should only lose 5/6 players which should be managable. The system does not work well if one or two sides significanly get burdened during call ups.

Peter Thomas (Blues owner) is the one grumbeling the most about this. He wants to see the WRU fund the best players. I dont think he's thought this through because if I was the WRU I would take centrally contracted players and distribute them evenly amongst the 4 sides. So that would see both the Scarlets and Blues lose quality not gain it. For example given that Rees and Owens both are in the starting lineup (ie 22) its safe to assume both would not be at the Scarlets.

Exactly, say Kirby and ken went to the Dragons, that would mean more time for both players and less international strain on the Scarlets missing their international players.

So the Scarlets should be put at a big disadvantage at hooker, just because their academy is doing what it's supposed to and actually producing players?

If I were a region like the Dragons, I would be looking at my own academy and comparing it to the likes of the O's and Scarlets, and wondering why on earth their academy isn't even close to matching them in the players being developed.

Scarlets had another hooker on their books last year, a really good prospect called Rhys Lawrence, he ended up going to Bristol. Where were the other 3 Welsh regions then?

And you want Kirby AND Ken to go. So that leaves us with Smiler and Phillips. Smiler away on internationl duty, we are stuck with one hooker and no injury cover. Great scenario right there. Not.

I don't quite get this moving players around to other regions so they can be better utilised. Surely that decision should be up tot the player. There are other things to consider when taking a job other than future job prospects. For example a player who could/should reach international level, but is currently playing second fiddle, may not actually reach their peek else where as it may be that they enjoy playing and get along witht heir team mates where they are, but in the team they get moved to they may well find that they can't tolerate some of their team mates etc. Also by moving a player from one side to another for game time, is it not possible that the play would then end up bloking someone elses progression.

So looking at current players etc would people prefer to see the regions looking something like this (as their first teams)

Blues - Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Scott Williams, Beck, North, Tovey, Knoyle; Delve, Navidi, Petorious, Charteris, B Davies, Mitchell, Owens, James

Dragons - Thomas, Brew, Maule, Smith, Stoddart, Priestland, Phillips; Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, Sidoli, A Jones, R Thomas, Burns, Gill

Ospreys - Byrne, T James , Hook, Henson, MUstoe , Biggar, Webb; R Jones, Tipuric, L Evans, I Evans, AW Jones, A Jones, Rees, Jenkins

Scarlets - Williams, Robinson, Davies, Roberts, E Walker, Jones, Knoyle; Murphy, Turnbull, McCusker, Reed, Day, Buck , Myhill, R Jones

After all the best partnerships would need to spend time together, (front row, locks, back row, halfbacks, centres, back three), and the strength would have to be distributed evenly in order to not show any favouritism.

rugbydreamer wrote:So the Scarlets should be put at a big disadvantage at hooker, just because their academy is doing what it's supposed to and actually producing players?

If I were a region like the Dragons, I would be looking at my own academy and comparing it to the likes of the O's and Scarlets, and wondering why on earth their academy isn't even close to matching them in the players being developed.

Scarlets had another hooker on their books last year, a really good prospect called Rhys Lawrence, he ended up going to Bristol. Where were the other 3 Welsh regions then?

And you want Kirby AND Ken to go. So that leaves us with Smiler and Phillips. Smiler away on internationl duty, we are stuck with one hooker and no injury cover. Great scenario right there. Not.

Well I think the Dragons probably are being quite retrospective....!

If there was a player share agreement introduced to boost the playing time of the best players, which is the aim, then it should probably be on a loan system and may be encouraged by the WRU and sponsored by them too.

If for hypothetical example the Scarlets loaned two hookers to Dragons, the Dragons in turn maybe loaned a winger, (hypothetically that the Scarlets were lacking Wing resources due to another bizarre injury bout in the same position) then the WRU could attribute a little cash towards the Scarlets for their wonderful services to Welsh Rugby.

It would strengthen teams that need it, improve the coffers of the regions, and hopefully encourage more from the academies by the regions seeing a healthy academy as a profitable enterprise funded by the powers that be.

There could be positives.

maesteg your forgetting buck at the dragons, has shored up what has been a suspect dragons scrum in recent seasons

GavinDragon wrote:maesteg your forgetting buck at the dragons, has shored up what has been a suspect dragons scrum in recent seasons

I acknowledged your post re Buck earlier and apologised for forgetting him. A good lad and getting plenty of game time.

I am just making suggestions for a brighter future, Welsh rugby is in a period of reinvention and has been for ten very positive years. Forward thinking and antipodean influence has changed so much for the better but we would be silly to not look into greater options for future progress.

'and has been for ten very positive years'

totally agree, and yet there are still people there who want the old club system back

maestegmafia wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:So the Scarlets should be put at a big disadvantage at hooker, just because their academy is doing what it's supposed to and actually producing players?

If I were a region like the Dragons, I would be looking at my own academy and comparing it to the likes of the O's and Scarlets, and wondering why on earth their academy isn't even close to matching them in the players being developed.

Scarlets had another hooker on their books last year, a really good prospect called Rhys Lawrence, he ended up going to Bristol. Where were the other 3 Welsh regions then?

And you want Kirby AND Ken to go. So that leaves us with Smiler and Phillips. Smiler away on internationl duty, we are stuck with one hooker and no injury cover. Great scenario right there. Not.

Well I think the Dragons probably are being quite retrospective....!

If there was a player share agreement introduced to boost the playing time of the best players, which is the aim, then it should probably be on a loan system and may be encouraged by the WRU and sponsored by them too.

If for hypothetical example the Scarlets loaned two hookers to Dragons, the Dragons in turn maybe loaned a winger, (hypothetically that the Scarlets were lacking Wing resources due to another bizarre injury bout in the same position) then the WRU could attribute a little cash towards the Scarlets for their wonderful services to Welsh Rugby.

It would strengthen teams that need it, improve the coffers of the regions, and hopefully encourage more from the academies by the regions seeing a healthy academy as a profitable enterprise funded by the powers that be.

There could be positives.

But why, even for financial rewards, would a region want to invest a lot more time and money and see that said very talanted acadamy player then go and play for an apposing side? That's like shooting yourself in the foot. You spend all that time developing someone, only to send them to a side where they then have a chance of beating you.

If we were in the same situation as say Ireland, where they've got too many NIQ playing in a key position (TH) then I would agree, if one team had 4 home qualified TH then sure, dish them out. That isn't happening in Wales though. Every region has a WQ hooker, many of whom are very talented. I actually can't think of a position except perhaps 8, where we would have any trouble.

Fair point Dreamer, a good counter argument.

As ever the connoisseur pundit you raised another very good point though regarding the number eight position and the number of players in contention or lack of them.

Sam Lewis (Ospreys)
Kieran Murphy (Scarlets)
Mathew Gilbert (Scarlets)
Lewis Evans (Dragons)

"But why, even for financial rewards, would a region want to invest a lot more time and money and see that said very talanted acadamy player then go and play for an apposing side? That's like shooting yourself in the foot. You spend all that time developing someone, only to send them to a side where they then have a chance of beating you."

It boils down to what is the regions purpose, to be successful in their own right or to produce players that can play for wales? by having the best players in the country competing against each other by getting game time week in week out at the highest level

maestegmafia wrote:Fair point Dreamer, a good counter argument.

As ever the connoisseur pundit you raised another very good point though regarding the number eight position and the number of players in contention or lack of them.

Sam Lewis (Ospreys)
Kieran Murphy (Scarlets)
Mathew Gilbert (Scarlets)
Lewis Evans (Dragons)

Ain't there some other kid at the Ospreys (Morgan Allen?) that is meant to look pretty promising at Number 8?

GavinDragon wrote:"But why, even for financial rewards, would a region want to invest a lot more time and money and see that said very talanted acadamy player then go and play for an apposing side? That's like shooting yourself in the foot. You spend all that time developing someone, only to send them to a side where they then have a chance of beating you."

It boils down to what is the regions purpose, to be successful in their own right or to produce players that can play for wales? by having the best players in the country competing against each other by getting game time week in week out at the highest level

The Scarlets are doing exactly that already. Is their acadamy now supposed to feed themselves AND the Dragons, or any other region?

I shouldn't think so.

Both the O's and Scarlets have proved that the academy system works, it's time for the Blues and Dragons to join them in that. That way we'll have a load of talent coming through at all regions.

Like I said, a problem is only going to arise if we have one position that is blocked in all regions by a NWQ player. That isn't happening, hence I don't see the problem.

Although feel free to argue against me, I've no doubt there's a point I'm over looking!

maestegmafia wrote:Fair point Dreamer, a good counter argument.

As ever the connoisseur pundit you raised another very good point though regarding the number eight position and the number of players in contention or lack of them.

Sam Lewis (Ospreys)
Kieran Murphy (Scarlets)
Mathew Gilbert (Scarlets)
Lewis Evans (Dragons)

Gilbert is a NWQ spot too.

So you'll have Faletau at the Dragons and Murphy at the Scarlets as 1st choice players next season.

Don't the O's and Blues have NWQ there? Or will Rush be leaving?

For now, I really can only see that as being our only problem position in terms of depth across all the regions, as other positons we have plenty of youngsters lined up to play and get experience.

The Blues do need to pull their fingers out. They have the most NWQ or Project Players in their first team.

They have encouraged some great young players like Warburton, Roberts, Williams, Cuthbert, Cook etc but they have also bought in talent from other academies, Tovey, Halfpenny.

im not arguing against you

The dragons have had to turn to their academy out of neccessity before the scarlets had to and have done so with varying degrees of success. This will continue next season

i was talking in the larger context of the regions performance against the backdrop of the poor attendance etc....are the main goals of the regions to provide players to wales or to win silverware in their own right

Obviously to win silverware in their own right

GavinDragon wrote:

i was talking in the larger context of the regions performance against the backdrop of the poor attendance etc....are the main goals of the regions to provide players to wales or to win silverware in their own right

Both

Aye I agree with Maes, tis both.

Also as another point, people are saying shift Ken Owens to a different region.

That guy is a Carmarthen lad, and a fiercly proud Scarlet, and it's great for fans that we get to see a local guy playing. If he were to go to a different region, that's already less of a pull at the Scarlets, as we'll have one less local player to go and watch.

It's a pretty complex situation really, but I don't think at the minute that moving palyers around is what's needed.

I think coaching/academy development at each individual region is far more important.

For instance, why on earth did the Dragons ever let Maule go? He was one of the Scarlets' best players last season.

I think tis more how the regions conduct themselves that is more important, than shifting all the academy players around.

Obviously if there is say a major surplus of players at 9 in one region, like 5 or 6, and only 2 at another, then in cases like that, I would say yeah it would make sense perhaps for that player to go and play for a different region.

Don't think you can make it a blanket situation though like what Ireland are going to be doing, reckon tis a case by case thing.

GavinDragon wrote:i was talking in the larger context of the regions performance against the backdrop of the poor attendance etc....are the main goals of the regions to provide players to wales or to win silverware in their own right

The regions can provide players and also have success on the feild. It is all about ballence. If a team were to dip into their cheque book and look around the other regions and cherry pick the best players then that would not be beneficial to the national side. And to a point it doesn't really impove the situation with regards to the crowd, as next season the cheque book needs to come out to purchase the signature of the next load of breakthrough international players. If you don't then you find that the 'fans' who turn up to watch the stars stop coming as there are not enough big names in the team to appeal to them

However if a team were to bring through a group of local lads, and instil into them a team spirit, and develope them into international players then that is different. Also that does tend to increase attendances as people are not going to see the stars they are going to see the lad from down the road turn out in their regional colours.

maestegmafia wrote:The Blues do need to pull their fingers out. They have the most NWQ or Project Players in their first team.

They have encouraged some great young players like Warburton, Roberts, Williams, Cuthbert, Cook etc but they have also bought in talent from other academies, Tovey, Halfpenny.

They also contributed most of the players in the Wales squad for the 6Ns

They provided 3/7 of the Welsh backline (the Scarlet's backs being 3/7 aswell)

They also provided 2-3/8 of the forwards


Halfpenny wasn't brought in from an academy - he was released by the O's for being too short, the Blues "developed" him

Andrews, Davies, Warburton, Williams, Cuthbert, Robinson, Halfpenny and Roberts have all been in the Wales squad after being "developed" by the Blues in the last 5 years.

wales606, no one is saying that they haven't brought players through, just that they need to be better at it. THey still have a heck of a lot of NWQ players on their books.

rugbydreamer wrote:wales606, no one is saying that they haven't brought players through, just that they need to be better at it. THey still have a heck of a lot of NWQ players on their books.

Yes, I am sorry if my post was misconstrued there W606. The Players the Blues have developed are a fantastic benefit to Wales. I was as RD Eludes to above referencing the quantity of NWQs and project players still first team players.