Who was the greatest Heavyweight to never become World Champion?

Lots of fighters we could pick here I guess

Must admit after reading a Ron Lyle tribute in Boxing Monthly and looking at his record he would be a good contender for it. Victories include Gerry Cooney, Joe Bugner, Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena. Was beating Ali on points when the stoppage happened

Who in your opinion do you think it is folks?


Regards

Steffan

Some of the early black fighters Jeanette, McVea, Langford and especially Wills would be decent contenders Id say.

Not going to be popular choices but Valdes and LaStarza would both figure highly for me as well as the aforementioned Jeanette, McVea and Langford. The number one has to be Harry Wills for me, a great heavyweight who would have given Dempsey a very stern test.

I know he was gifted the belt, but Ken Norton is one.

Going on those who I've seen I would say Norton or Quarry. Very tough one to pick. Something that isn't a problem nowadays given that if you don't have a title someone will create one for you.

Lyle, Young, Williams, Folley, Chuvalo, there's so many from the golden era that it's hard to remember them all.

Wills for me, if we're talking purely about Heavyweight exploits. Lyle would be right up there, though, as would Nino Valdes, perhaps the only really notable name missing from Marciano's title ledger.

Is a three way tie between either Langford, Wills or perennial favourite of Dave Peter Jackson, have to ask myself given who was title holder during their respective peaks which of these has the best chance of winning the title, as I have said many times view Langford Johnson as a genuine pick em, Wills I have never fancied to beat Dempsey but would have to give Jackson a genuine chance of beating either an ageing Sullivan or Corbett. Appreciate this is not really the question but really can't split em.

A bit off topic but does anyone know anything about a black fighter John W Haynes? Boxrec have him listed as Klondike. He mixed in good company losing twice to Sam Langford and was the first man to beat Jack Johnson. That's all I could find out from his record.

Any links or recommendations of where I could find out more would be hugely appreciated.

Well the unluckiest has to be Audley... just when he has David Haye dancing to his tune, he gets caught by a lucky shot.

The greatest? Richard Dunn

Moving to more recent times I think it is criminal that David Tua never won a belt and John Ruiz did. Unfortunate for David that he was around in Lewis' era.

In terms of talent perhaps not ecord Ike Ibeabuchi has a fair shout?

Cooper and Tua and Ibebuchi these guys were very unlucky not to world champs they were around when quality guys like Lewis and Ali were fighting I reckon if they were around now they could be champs. Too much power for Wlad and too much skill for Vitali who is old now and past his best.

Jesus how did I know you were going to say Cooper, I saw the name Waingro had last posted and I bet myself the first name he said would be Cooper, I owe myself a fiver.

Waingro you seem obsessed by this idea Cooper was a decent heavy, based it would appear on one punch, he was ordinary, euro level at best, we are talking about a guy who dumped decisions to the likes of Johannsen and Patterson, both of these are regarded as two of the weaker champions the heavyweight division has seen yet still had too much for Henry so I am afraid that this idea that if you take Ali out of the mix Cooper is the obvious man to fill the void simply does not stack up.

But he was quality, jeff! How can you argue with that?

rowley wrote:Waingro you seem obsessed by this idea Cooper was a decent heavy, based it would appear on one punch, he was ordinary, euro level at best, we are talking about a guy who dumped decisions to the likes of Johannsen and Patterson, both of these are regarded as two of the weaker champions the heavyweight division has seen yet still had too much for Henry so I am afraid that this idea that if you take Ali out of the mix Cooper is the obvious man to fill the void simply does not stack up.

Im not sure mate imo he came very close to knocking out Ali how many guys have done this?? Not even Foreman could hurt him who was a beast. This shows how quality Cooper was he lost to Ali on cuts but Ali after he had almost knocked him out so I think he is very underrated think about if he lands that punch on Wlad that would be fight over and if he lands it on Vitali he could stop him on cuts like Lewis did. Cooper would have too much skill for Vitali now who is slow and past it. Dont get me wrong Im not saying Cooper was better than guys like Lewis or Tyson or Ali these guys were a different class but Cooper was a quality heavyweight and nowadays there are not that many around. If Lewis or Tyson or Ali were still around then Cooper would not be champ.

Waingro genuine question but outside of the first Ali fight how many of Cooper's fights have you seen?

Coops was quality. FACT!!!!!

Waingro wrote:

Im not sure mate imo he came very close to knocking out Ali how many guys have done this??

Not many have but let's be realistic, Ali was basically messing about with him at that point, he was completely outboxing him.

Waingro wrote:
Not even Foreman could hurt him who was a beast.

I agree Ali was very good. As was Foreman.

Waingro wrote:
This shows how quality Cooper was

It doesn't... He landed a good punch.

Waingro wrote:
so I think he is very underrated think about if he lands that punch on Wlad that would be fight over and if he lands it on Vitali he could stop him on cuts like Lewis did.

Problem is he wouldn't land it on Wlad and definitely wouldn't touch Vitali, watch what happens to Danny Williams against Vitali who was around the level Cooper was, Cooper was maybe a little bit better in some than Williams but same outcome all the time.

Waingro wrote:
Cooper would have too much skill for Vitali now who is slow and past it.

He wouldn't because he never really had that good a skill level, I agree it would be a little bit closer than it would have been at when Vitali was in his prime, but it would be a much more punishing fight for Cooper who could be stopped from a cut at any time.

Waingro wrote:
Dont get me wrong Im not saying Cooper was better than guys like Lewis or Tyson or Ali

Thank God.

Waingro wrote:
If Lewis or Tyson or Ali were still around then Cooper would not be champ.

Thanks, Sherlock.

(This was havoc with the quote function)

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:Waingro you seem obsessed by this idea Cooper was a decent heavy, based it would appear on one punch, he was ordinary, euro level at best, we are talking about a guy who dumped decisions to the likes of Johannsen and Patterson, both of these are regarded as two of the weaker champions the heavyweight division has seen yet still had too much for Henry so I am afraid that this idea that if you take Ali out of the mix Cooper is the obvious man to fill the void simply does not stack up.

Im not sure mate imo he came very close to knocking out Ali how many guys have done this?? Not even Foreman could hurt him who was a beast. This shows how quality Cooper was he lost to Ali on cuts but Ali after he had almost knocked him out so I think he is very underrated think about if he lands that punch on Wlad that would be fight over and if he lands it on Vitali he could stop him on cuts like Lewis did. Cooper would have too much skill for Vitali now who is slow and past it. Dont get me wrong Im not saying Cooper was better than guys like Lewis or Tyson or Ali these guys were a different class but Cooper was a quality heavyweight and nowadays there are not that many around. If Lewis or Tyson or Ali were still around then Cooper would not be champ.

This is quite simply some of the finest wummery I have ever seen. It sticks rigidly to Waingro's familiar syntax and formula: mate, imo, underrated, beast, quality, "too much skill" and demonstrates his unique brand of bizarre reasoning that exploits a carefully crafted mixture of cherry picked premises and infuriating logic such that it demands a response.

As for who was the greatest never to win the title: it has to be a Wills or Langford, like Manos said. Personally, the only fighter I've seen in my days of watching boxing that I can think of is Ibeabuchi.

fearlessBamber wrote:
This is quite simply some of the finest wummery I have ever seen. It sticks rigidly to Waingro's familiar syntax and formula: mate, imo, underrated, beast, quality, "too much skill" and demonstrates his unique brand of bizarre reasoning that exploits a carefully crafted mixture of cherry picked premises and infuriating logic such that it demands a response.

It is brilliant isn't it, like all the true greats like Ralphy at his peak you are never quite sure if they are being serious or not.

Ralph, if you're out there somewhere reading this, come back mate. Jeff is still pining over you!

They do always say you never get over your first love Chris, suspect the same is true of your first Wum.

Waingro is by far the best WUM we've had on the board, he is infuriating at times, but other times you can't help but laugh at it, he is very good at what he does, just wonder why he does it?

AlexHuckerby wrote:Waingro is by far the best WUM we've had on the board, he is infuriating at times, but other times you can't help but laugh at it, he is very good at what he does, just wonder why he does it?

So he can provoke people in to writing comments like the one you've just posted Alex, I'd imagine!

rowley wrote:

fearlessBamber wrote:
This is quite simply some of the finest wummery I have ever seen. It sticks rigidly to Waingro's familiar syntax and formula: mate, imo, underrated, beast, quality, "too much skill" and demonstrates his unique brand of bizarre reasoning that exploits a carefully crafted mixture of cherry picked premises and infuriating logic such that it demands a response.

It is brilliant isn't it, like all the true greats like Ralphy at his peak you are never quite sure if they are being serious or not.

I'm always think it might be a regular who has gone of the radar of late, but you are never sure. It's the consistency that makes me suspicious.

Where has Scottrf gone?
Did he say he was going on holiday or something?

Scottrf has been quiet lately.

I think its hards to look past Langford and Wills for me. Personally I would give it to Wills.

superflyweight wrote:Scottrf has been quiet lately.

He's not posted at all since before Christmas.

I heard that Scott was banned (don't take that as gospel, mind) which would be a shame. Don't think he's Waingro though, I must say.

Why on earth would Scott get banned what did he do?

No idea, Alex. As I said, don't take it as gospel, was just implied to me by a couple of other posters a couple of weeks back. I wasn't posting all that much before Christmas / over New Year, so probably missed the thread which ended in a ban (if there was one).

Scottrf goes and davidemore arrives.. Didn't he claim to know him as well? Sets off a few alarm bells for me personally.

And Waingro appears to have a fixation with one punch in one round in one fight that's convinced him that Cooper would've been world champ... Seems to forget that while he was a decent British/Euro level fighter he was never anything above that.

wummery is an art form, and waingro is just a hockney... a cheap tabloid copy of the greats. Take the mighty spring who has taken the cubist wum movement to new levels with hamed barrerra and age fixations. He is years ahead of his time. Waingro's cooper fixation is but a clumsy pastiche. Spring is quality and schools waingro everytime imo.

D4 Pumps Waingro as far as wums go. D4 was quality imo lol!

Ralphy was from a gentler time. A time when Gary Glitter just made great music and WUM's had an air of moronic innocence. Waingro takes us back to that place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F11111444?thread=5854117&show=50

Never convinced that d4 was a true WUM. I think he made himself believe what he was saying.

The worrying thing is super that is one of the more lucid and reasonable threads he ever posted, a gaint amongst midgets in the WUM stakes

I only joined the old 606 just before this site popped up. What was the guys obsession with Richie Woodhall?

Shout out for Realmickster/ wheresmegold.

Sample some of his work here:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=wheresmegold+%7C+realmickster+site%3Abbc.co.uk

I'm going for Tom Sharkey.....Certainly in the Jeffries, Corbett, fitz group of fighters and the only one not to get the title....Some say he was robbed against James j and did hold a contentious win over Fitzy-baby!!! as well as other quality of the day..

jimmy young second for me.........beat Foreman and in many eyes Ali as well as having a quality cv.....Quality operator..

Jimmy Young and Chuvalo for me. Lyle was also very good.

Not for nothing, but wasn't Cooper ahead on the cards in both the Clay/Ali fights when they were stopped?

Not so sure Clay was just messing about, Cooper was giving him some problems.

Chuvalo???...There's an interesting call...always thought he was a slab of meat in the good ol Tex Cobb mould..

Roland Lastarza deserves a shout..

Sorry to nitpick, as this is genuinely interesting in it's subject, plus the lovely reminiscing, but in the OP you say Lyle beat Cooney? I thought a washed up version of Lyle got demolished and sunk out of the ropes via nasty left to the body in the 1st.

Lyle was definitely unfortunate to be around in such a tough era. I've never been so convinced by Tua, but whenever this subject comes up he always gets a mention. What is it about Tua that makes people think "Champion"? His style was exciting, but was he actually that good?

Cobb was the greatest actor in a Coen bros movie never to become heavyweight champion. Apart from John Goodman.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Chuvalo???...There's an interesting call...always thought he was a slab of meat in the good ol Tex Cobb mould..

Roland Lastarza deserves a shout..

Chuvalo did mix in some good company. As everyone knows, he gave Ali a decent fight, with Ali coming off worse, think he had kidney damage afterwards, and took Patterson to a close decision in a fight of the year.

He never ducked anyone, (wasn't he in negotiations to fight Liston ?), never got a shot at Cooper, who he would have beat IMO and had longevity going from mid 1950's to late 1970's. Think he beat Cleavland Williams as well, although that may have been after he was shot, literally.

After the golden trio of Ali, Frazier and Foreman, I reckon he was in with the best of the rest, probably below Norton, Ellis and Young but still a live contender.

BTW, now I think of it, Cleavland Williams never won the HW title did he, he'd be another decent shout.

NathanDB10 wrote:BTW, now I think of it, Cleavland Williams never won the HW title did he, he'd be another decent shout.

Certainly would, Nathan, as would his contemporary Eddie Machen.

Just discovered this article and would have to go for Peter Jackson (many thanks to Rowley for keeping his name alive in my absence)

Fleet of foot, great balance, defence, quick hands (his jab/cross combo was allegedly a thing of beauty) and he was widely regarded as the finest fighter of his generation. Fought Corbett whilst hampered with an ankle injury sustained a week earlier and went 61 rounds with him (even before it was declared a no-contest due to injury and exhaustion on both sides, they'd fought 25 highly competitive rounds).

Most believe Jackson would have overcome Sullivan...including many in Sullivan's camp hence the reason he was avoided like the plague.

Peter Jackson for me.

Thank god for that Dave, thought I was ploughing a lone furrow for the big man for a while, he is a genuinely good shout though, of all the contenders he is one of the few that you would have probably made a warm favourite to win the title had the opportunity arisen in his time, because like you have alluded to against the ageing, virtually alcoholic Sullivan he would have faced you would have had to fancy his chances.