WELSH SALARY CAP?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/default.stm

Updated -

BBC Sport Wales understands Regional Rugby Wales, which represents
the four regions, have consulted the Welsh Rugby Union over the move.

Wales props Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are among those linked with moves to France.

Luke Charteris could play there next season while James Hook, Lee Byrne and Mike Phillips are already in France.

The cap has yet to be announced, but clubs in England's
Premiership operate their squads on a total salary budget of £4m per
season.

Senior figures at the regions - Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent
Dragons, the Ospreys and Scarlets - have expressed their views over the
issue.

And they have made calls for the WRU to provide extra cash in
a bid to persuade star players not to move to any French Top 14 and
English clubs or further afield.

Dragons lock Charteris is the latest player to announce he is
leaving Wales and could line up alongside Hook at Perpignan next
season.

Scrum-half Phillips left the Ospreys for Bayonne at the end
of last season while Lee Byrne went from the Swansea-based region to
Clermont Auvergne.

Hook, Phillips and Byrne linked up with their clubs after the
World Cup in which the stock of many leading Welsh players rose as they
reached the semi-finals and then finished fourth following defeat by
Australia.

Since then Ospreys prop Jones and fellow British and Irish Lion Jenkins, of the Blues, have been linked with moves to France.

Dragons wing Aled Brew is also reportedly a Perpignan target
while the Scarlets fear young stars such as fly-half Rhys Priestland,
wing George North and centres Jonathan Davies and Scott Williams could
also fall prey to foreign clubs.
Original BBC article:

"Wales' four regions will announce a salary cap on Tuesday amid fears of a mass player exodus to France.

BBC Sport Wales understands Regional Rugby Wales, which
represents the four regions, have consulted the Welsh Rugby Union over
the move.

Wales props Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are among those linked with moves to France.

Luke Charteris will play there next season while James Hook, Lee Byrne and Mike Phillips are already in France.

The cap has yet to be announced, but clubs in England's
Premiership operate their squads on a total salary budget of £4m per
season.

More to follow."

I thought they had one already?

Not sure that a cap will help matters! When I think about salary caps it is generally to do with reducing salary expenditure in the rich clubs to create a more level playing field in the league. As I understand it in Wales we don't have enough money in any of the regions, and that is why players are leaving.

The only thing I can think is that, say the regions currently have enough money for £3m per year, maybe the salary cap is going to be £4m and the WRU is going to give them extra money to top up salaries? That's probably not very well thought out, but is off the top of my head!

HERSH wrote:I thought they had one already?

Nope. No salary cap as the salary expenditure is not very high apparently (compared to other leagues anyway). I've heard the Dragons salary expenditure is around £2m???

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I think your right it won't make any difference whatsoever as there isn't any money in the game in Wales.

Griff wrote:Not sure that a cap will help matters! When I think about salary caps it is generally to do with reducing salary expenditure in the rich clubs to create a more level playing field in the league. As I understand it in Wales we don't have enough money in any of the regions, and that is why players are leaving.

The only thing I can think is that, say the regions currently have enough money for £3m per year, maybe the salary cap is going to be £4m and the WRU is going to give them extra money to top up salaries? That's probably not very well thought out, but is off the top of my head!

I have two takes on this:

Regarding the Welsh: The Os have tried the Galacticos route and failed. And you'd have to join the Rabo attendances article to explain that.

" When I think about salary caps it is generally to do with reducing
salary expenditure in the rich clubs to create a more level playing
field in the league."

Regarding England this is true.

And it will come as no surprise to anyone that it's not a cap so much as to hamstring any side with national interests at heart. For that debate you'd have to refer to my post on What's the purpose of the Jeff?

Theres plenty of money in the International game - not in the regional games.

My point really Portnoy was that for a cap to be imposed in Wales there really needs to be rich clubs buying up all of the Welsh quality leaving the poor clubs scratching about for scraps. In reality, yes some players have been 'poached' but plenty have gone the other way too. The clubs actually need more money for players, not less. Setting a cap that clubs don't get near reaching seems pointless. Similarly, setting a low cap on clubs that already have low expenditure (in comparision with other teams) will further reduce their ability to compete. Even more players will f off to France.

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Griff wrote:My point really Portnoy was that for a cap to be imposed in Wales there really needs to be rich clubs buying up all of the Welsh quality leaving the poor clubs scratching about for scraps. In reality, yes some players have been 'poached' but plenty have gone the other way. The clubs actually need more money for players, not less. Setting a cap that clubs don't get near reaching seems pointless. Similarly, setting a low cap on clubs that already have low expenditure (in comparision with other teams) will further reduce their ability to compete. Even more players will f off to France.

But my point Grirff is that the Welsh public have been spoon-fed free-to-air rugby and have not turned up in person for manufactured X-Factor-style boy bands.

Interesting point, Portnoy. It's made me think about the problem constructively and .... well maybe they crowds should be allowed phone vote for which side they want to win? Maybe that's a goer? If Munster turn up looking dangerous, the Welsh side fans just get on their phones and vote for their side to win. And that takes the cheating ref out of the equation completely...

Portnoy, exactly. A salary cap may have been needed in Wales when one of the regions with lots of money was operating at a much higher level than the rest. A salary cap would have brought the Ospreys back down to the level of the others (perhpas the Blues were spending high too). However, since Cuddy's well documented financial troubles/wranglings the Ospreys have been recruiting far less from abroad and have been promoting more from within. All the regions are picking more home grown players now. Therefore, is there really a need for a cap? Who are we trying to bring in line with a cap? Who is overspending to the detriment of the others? No-one.

This is a bid to get more leverage over the WRU regarding funding. If they impose a salary cap and struggle, they'll look to the WRU for player bonus fees towards wales squad members to free up cap room.

Surely central contracts would of been a much better option??

I cant see a salary cap doing anything to stop Welsh players going to France or anywhere else. This all seems a bit bizarre to me.

Too many regions, too few players, too few spectators and not enough money. I commented on a different thread, but the reality is that this isn't about salary caps - a new long term strategy is needed. The WRU need to get their heads out the sand before pro rugby collapses. We cant rely on Hazell, Cudy etc propping up the regions whilst we fail to compete.

I'm probably in the minority but what Wales needs is fewer regions, centrally funded and not affiliated to any club. We could then have a thriving club scene underpinning the pro regions and developing talent.

From Wales Online:

"Regional rugby in Wales is set to announce a salary cap today amid fears of a mass player exodus to France.

The organisation which represents the four regions have consulted the Welsh Rugby Union over the move and are set to announce it at 2.30pm in a statement which will also address other issues.

The deal is designed to protect a level playing field and it is understood to cap each regional squad at £3.5m to cover 38 players. This works out an average salary of £92,000.

These figures are in comparison to £4.2m for each club in England.

The regions have also made calls for the WRU to provide extra cash in a bid to persuade star players not to move to any French Top 14 and English clubs or further afield.

Dragons lock Luke Charteris is the latest player to announce he is leaving Wales and could line up alongside James Hook at Perpignan next season, while Mike Phillips and Lee Byrne are already in France.

Scrum-half Phillips left the Ospreys for Bayonne at the end of last season while Byrne went from the Swansea-based region to Clermont Auvergne.

Lions Test prop pair Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones and Dragons wing Aled Brew is a Perpignan target while the Scarlets fear young stars such as fly-half Rhys Priestland, wing George North and centres Jonathan Davies and Scott Williams could also fall prey to foreign clubs.

Wales coach Warren Gatland has warned players their Test careers could suffer if they move to clubs outside Wales.

He has urged any players doing so to ensure their contracts allow them to fulfil all Wales' playing and training commitments.

Two weeks before the 2012 Six Nations Wales will travel to Poland for a training camp and Gatland has said players unavailable for it may not be considered for the tournament."

The interesting thing is the average salary of "£92,000". Now, I realise that some younger playes will be on less so senior players will be on more, that really is pittance. To put in in perspective James Hook is on £750,000 a year in Perpignan. This will drive more players away, not persuade them to stay!

£92,000 average salary at the regions???

They must be having a laugh - by the way Hook getting £750k basic is the biggest load of balls. Only Walesonline claim that - everywhere else says he's getting about £500k

The only thing I can think of is if the regions and WRU agree to a salary cap, that they bring it to the Celtic League board to try and impose it across the whole league, the Italian Union and Scottish Unions may agree to it as it'll allow there teams to grow better, but it'll really effect the IRFU.

It would limit Leinster, Munster and Ulster but I'm not sure if this would help the Welsh regions? It won't help them keep players in Wales. but it may be aimed to increase attendances by trying to make Leinster and Muster beatable (or something like that).

Hook - I thought the 750k figure was over the 3 years he's there?

Hey, at least the WRU are taking some action, and relatively quickly, for them, this discussion would usually go on for years, we'd forget about it, then it'd happen, and be too late to even force central contracts on the regions to save them.

So yeah, at least somethings happening now, perhaps if it goes wrong the WRU will still have time to act.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16267538.stm

Comfort wrote:Hook - I thought the 750k figure was over the 3 years he's there?

Hey, at least the WRU are taking some action, and relatively quickly, for them, this discussion would usually go on for years, we'd forget about it, then it'd happen, and be too late to even force central contracts on the regions to save them.

So yeah, at least somethings happening now, perhaps if it goes wrong the WRU will still have time to act.

That sounds more sensible. £750k would represent nearly 10% even of a French side's budget. And we all know the price of props...

There is another slant on this aswell possibly - we'll use Charteris as an example - he will be leaving the Dragons because they are unable and don't want to match a French/English club salary - this creates some friction with the club and the player can feel unwanted - if there is a cap the region can simply say we are not allowed to pay as much - takes away the friction and perhaps some loyalty can shine through - this combined with international incentives may convince players to stay?

Walesonline are claiming he's getting 750k a year - they really are full of it.

The Western Mail understands French aces Perpignan are dangling a bumper £750,000-a-year contract in front of the mercurial Wales star.


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2010/11/04/hook-can-be-highest-paid-club-player-in-world-rugby-at-perpignan-91466-27596755/

It shows the financial gulf between some clubs when the Dragons are asking the WRU for money and Mallinder at the Saints is saying the salary cap is a burden i.e they can afford to keep people aren't allowed to.

any idea what it will be?

Will be interesting to see if it matches the aviva.

Remember that £92,000 is the average.

The blues gave Bradley Davies a 2 year deal worth £100,000 a year. This is offset by player like Czekaj probably on no more than £40/50k

How is a salary cap going to retain talent in Wales? I thought players were leaving to make more money? The article didn't explain this, though it cited the player emmigration to France as justification for the salary cap.

Yeah just saw it on bbc!

Not sure how it will work have to wait and see

the western mail, eurgh.

Also some of the junior guys will be on development contracts of about £20k.

So there should be plenty in the pot to pay your top guys say £150k plus on top of that staying in Wales means they can be selected for Wales and get appearance money and bonus's for that.

he will be leaving the Dragons because they are unable and don't want to match a French/English club salary

Sadly gone are the days the English clubs could turn round and out bid everybody else. The English clubs are tied into a £4.2m salary cap and don't receive the same hand outs as the Wales regions do. Nor do they benefit from the player pool control the Welsh regions have. Then again there are less NEQ restrictions and a larger population on the English side but that doesn't help when competing against the French.

Is this salary cap a WRU generated idea? Agree financial stability measures with the clubs and agree to provide a percentage (an increase on what the already provide?) of the funds in order to guarentee a reduction in the number of NWQ players?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16267538.stm

According to the BBC theyve 90years before it takes affect

Surely the best way to handle it is for Gatland not to pick those playing abroad it worked in the early days or centrally contract players to the WRU

I find it so strange to see RRW and WRU in agreement over something.

£3.5M cap for a European squad should be sufficient to cover the regions. Remember the WRU then provide extra funding for the academies and development players.

The £4.2M for the England clubs cover everything not just the european squad.

Worth keeping an eye on, can't really see clearly the politics behind it, but at least RRW seems to be doing something to try and protect the squads. Not sure how it's all going to pan out though.

marty2086 wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16267538.stm

According to the BBC theyve 90years before it takes affect

Surely the best way to handle it is for Gatland not to pick those playing abroad it worked in the early days or centrally contract players to the WRU

Where did you get 90 years from ? Unless BBC have ammended a mistake ?

It comes into affect summer 2012 and it will be reviewed each year.

Hopefully it won't include young Welsh talent, only established and import players. Not sure how it will help in retaining players when someone like Adam Jones can reportedly earn 3 times his current salary playing in France?

there is an article about this already in the club section if you guys want to look there (and I'll merge them later when I have time)

I too had a hard time understanding exactly how this would help in retaining players. The most I could guess is, as far as ethics go, this puts the writing on the wall and clears up the issue of what every player knows he can hope to earn in Wales. Now those who do decide to jump ship can be set aside as undoubtedly having the big £'s as primary motivation and not their country first.

Please excuse my ignorance on two accounts:

1 How does this amount compare with the salary cap in Englnad?

2 How will this stop players going to France, I didn't think France had a cap so if Perpignan for example still offers a player more to play for them then he could go.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Please excuse my ignorance on two accounts:

1 How does this amount compare with the salary cap in Englnad?

2 How will this stop players going to France, I didn't think France had a cap so if Perpignan for example still offers a player more to play for them then he could go.

1. English cap is £4.5m I think. Though with WRU finding for academy players etc it's not too far off the English one.

2. The French cap is around 8 million yoyos, though I don't know how well enforced it is

The salary cap in England is £4.2M but that includes the european squad, development palyer and academies etc.

Wales will have £3.5M for just their european squad. At least that's how I read it. We get additional funding from the WRU for the academies and development players seperately.

Not sure how it will stop players going to France, but at least it will give a clear indication to regions and players alike what it is they can spend. Must work out as an average of £100K per player which isn't exactly bad (when you consider some will be on much less, and others on much more then that).

As I posted on the club section, I don't see how this will stop the drain due to fact that French teams don't have a cap.

So if Perpignan for eg still comes in and offers a player more than his Region then he could well be tempted and take the money.

Also what is the salary cap in England compared to what ours is going to be (3.5million) I think was quoted.

bedfordwelsh wrote:As I posted on the club section, I don't see how this will stop the drain due to fact that French teams don't have a cap.

So if Perpignan for eg still comes in and offers a player more than his Region then he could well be tempted and take the money.

Also what is the salary cap in England compared to what ours is going to be (3.5million) I think was quoted.

I think the English cap is around £4-£4.5m - say 20% higher.

France does technically have a cap, but it's about double England's one.

Would you not agree that salary caps are the last aspiration of a league that needs to hang together or hang separately?

Define 'hang'

not really sure what you mean Portnoy??

Knowsit17 wrote:I too had a hard time understanding exactly how this would help in retaining players. The most I could guess is, as far as ethics go, this puts the writing on the wall and clears up the issue of what every player knows he can hope to earn in Wales. Now those who do decide to jump ship can be set aside as undoubtedly having the big £'s as primary motivation and not their country first.

You know what, i really hate the common attitude that players should stay in their country, otherwise they are money grabbing mercenaries etc. After all this is their job and one that can end any day due to injury and is a short career any way.

Why should the Union effectively hold the player to ransom - if you want to play for your country then you have to accept below market rate salaries. It can be beneficial to player and country if they play abroad for a bit. Player will usually improve while cash is freed up to develop more young players.