Ireland v New Zealand Tour 2012

First topic message reminder :

It's gonna be a great tour and I think we can finally beat the Kiwis (even if we win 3-0 in third test) after a few heavy losses

We play New Zealand in Auckland on 9th June

Then in Christchurch (which is amazing for the city) on the 16th June

And the third test against New Zealand in in Hamilton on 23rd June

I'm surprised that Dunedin didn't get it as that was hotly tipped. Details of our midweek games against Super 15 and Maori teams still to be announced. Delighted to see a return to old fashioned tours. This is the tour on which I'll be judging Kidney not the Six Nations.

I think with Hansen as coach Ireland have got a great chance of getting 2/3. Hopefully he'll be gone by end of 2013 so we have time to sort our selves out before defending the world cup.

The tour co-incides with a break in the super 15 competion,3 tests plus two other matches a S15 Franchise [to be annouced]and possibly versus NZ Maori a proper old fashioned tour.

Rava wrote:I don't really care who plays 13 as long as Paddy Wallace is playing at 12.

Oh, and Rory Best for Captain!

Paddy Wallace yer arse! Spence and Cave all the way

Best is a good shout as captain but I think it will be O'Connell. Sexton would be a real bold and positive choice to captain us through to 2015 IMO.

Heaslip looked like a future captain two seasons ago but he's lost the run of himself.

I genuinely think there's about 3-4 people who could be captain.

Sexton, Best, O'Connell, Heaslip

Stag O'Connell is the obvious choice followed by Best. However O'Connell will be 35 and Best 33 come the next RWC.

Sexton is the only one who jumps out for me. He really took a leadership role for Leinster and for Ireland in the 6N. He's got an aura about him and will still be at his peak in 2015.

Someone else like POM or Nagle may come into the picture later on but there aren't many standout candidates right now.

I'm sure it'll be POC. He's still one of the first names on the team sheet. A definite starter. A natural leader. Locks don't normally start to show their age till around 35. POC may even last longer (like Shaw or Thorn) after his long injury layoff gave him a year away from rugby.

I don't like the idea of the flyhalf being the captain. He's responsible for kicking points. Don't give him more responsibilities. The captain should be in the pack or maybe the scrumhalf. And for some reason a lot of the best captains I can think of are second rows. McBride, Johnson, Eales etc.

emack2 wrote:The tour co-incides with a break in the super 15 competion,3 tests plus two other matches a S15 Franchise [to be annouced]and possibly versus NZ Maori a proper old fashioned tour.

What stage of the S15 is the break set for and will your guys get much time together before the first match.

I hope that even though BOD is injured McFadden replaces Darcy as 12 at Leinster although with BOD gone I can see this as being harder as O'Malley, Mackin or Fitzgerald will have to step up now.

With Darcy playing 12 for Leinster I can see him starting there for Ireland in the 6n unless he loses form further or gets injured. He played well against Munster though in all fairness.

Can see the centre partnership for the 6N being

12:Darcy
13:McFadden/Cave

Just going back a fair bit, Boss has been lively in the last two games but his standard of passing has been poor, he doesn't play the ball infront of Sexton, or rather he hasn't been playing the ball in front of sexton for the last 2 games.

His play around the ruck has been good though.

Pete I disagree about Boss. His passing has improved a lot. Unlike any other scrum half we have he is a brilliant at playing a high tempo game. People wrongly think it is a flaw when the scrum half takes quick ball on and runs at the defence rather than passing a la stringer but those two 3 steps take the play over the gainline and then the other players are coming onto front foot ball. It ties in the defence too and creates space out wide.

It is not always the way to play but it is very hard to defend against. Justin Marshall played like this too. The key is knowing when not to take the ball on and I think Boss has got a lot better at this.

Feckless O'Connell has had a lot of injuries so I wouldn't be confident of him lasting as long as Thorn or Shaw. I think he is at his peak now though and has at least 2 more seasons at the top. It's hard to say though.

SOB for captain lads he has captained leinster a few times, although he can be a bit too aggressive some times, but paulie isnt scared to get dirty either.

I'd say POC will captain the 6nations and BOD will be back to lead us out for one last time down under.

roddersm wrote:Pete I disagree about Boss. His passing has improved a lot. Unlike any other scrum half we have he is a brilliant at playing a high tempo game. People wrongly think it is a flaw when the scrum half takes quick ball on and runs at the defence rather than passing a la stringer but those two 3 steps take the play over the gainline and then the other players are coming onto front foot ball. It ties in the defence too and creates space out wide.

It is not always the way to play but it is very hard to defend against. Justin Marshall played like this too. The key is knowing when not to take the ball on and I think Boss has got a lot better at this.

Feckless O'Connell has had a lot of injuries so I wouldn't be confident of him lasting as long as Thorn or Shaw. I think he is at his peak now though and has at least 2 more seasons at the top. It's hard to say though.

I agree that it fixes the fringe defence and the second man out but it means that the 13 and outside defenders can come up and cut off outside passes. It is good when attacking the fringes and 10 channel but not when you want to go wide.

I like how he does it and how well he links with our carriers.

just look at the last two games he played and his standard of pass to sexton is quite poor.

Tomas O'Leary to have displaced Conor Murray for Munster and earned his Ireland place back by then . . . . . .discuss!

red_stag wrote:Tomas O'Leary to have displaced Conor Murray for Munster and earned his Ireland place back by then . . . . . .discuss!

Haha good luck to the guy! He made some nice breaks on Friday in all fairness but the guy isn't an actual scrumhalf he is an excellent athlete who decided to play rugby, he is missing so many skills needed for a 9 but has so many skills needed in other positions.

Conor Murray to kick on and become Ireland's best ever scrumhalf????

Thats a more likely one to be fair Pete

I'd actually love to see Munster play O'Leary at centre in a Pro 12 game. His distribution is slow for a 9 but would be good for centre.

Link him up with Barnes.

It’s folly with a season of Super XV ahead, but here’s what team I’d like to see put out there…

1 T Woodcock
2 K Mealamu
3 O Franks
4 A Boric
5 S Whitelock
6 J Kaino
7 M Todd
8 K Read ©
9 P Weeu
10 D Carter
11 C Jane
12 M Nonu
13 C Smith
14 H Gear
15 I Dagg

16 B Franks
17 H Elliott
18 A Williams
19 A Thompson
20 A Ellis
21 A Cruden
22 SB Williams

On the midweek games, kudos for bringing those back into play. I wouldn’t want it to be against a Super XV franchise though. Too early for ITM Cup teams also. What about a Lochore/Meads Cup XV? Amateurs v Irish dirt trackers would be a good pull, play it in either Nelson, Whangarei, Napier, Rotorua etc….

Read as captain is an interesting one.

No place for Kahui? Will Mealamu still be best hooker?

I foresee another injury for Kahui! think the way that Hansen has been talking also suggests more use of SBW....will wait and see on that one.

Not sure about Mealamu or Hore. Out of the two, I'd pick Kevvy and I think Hore has one more year before heading back to the farm. ANyway, it's time to bring on Elliott.

On another note, I see this as a cracking series. I feel Ireland have the goods to at least get monkey of their backs in this one....

I think its gonna be fantastic. Not peddling my wares but I work for a rugby touring company and we put together a tour package for it over last few days - its gonna be a great tour - almost Lionsesque (without those pesky Brits)

I am very excited for it and a little bit terrified of how strong NZ will look in the backs. You guys will be looking mighty strong there but perhaps a little less so in the pack.

I like how it will be somewhat Lion-esque also and yet more personable as we won't have to pretend we like Lawes or Lee Byrne etc!!

I like that we play the BaaBaa's too, is that one in Ireland.
Buzzing now more excited about that than the 6N.

red_stag wrote:Tomas O'Leary to have displaced Conor Murray for Munster and earned his Ireland place back by then . . . . . .discuss!

I actually think this may well happen. Seriously!

Murray wasn't great against Leinster and there was noticible lift in tempo when O'Leary came on.

If O'Leary can stay fit then he'll come right back into the frame.....he's no Isaac Boss though !

BaaBaas game hasn't been announced but it won't be in NZ.

Really hope it isn't in England. Love seeing the BaaBaa's play.

I know our World Cup ended up being a disappointment but we did have one big achievement. Australia are the next best team in the world after New Zealand. And we beat them in the southern hemisphere. And it was our pack that won it. Convincingly. We have a very good pack. The problem is our attack is nowhere near as good as it was in the mid noughties. If we can get our attacking game right this year we have a chance of catching out New Zealand if they're in any way rusty or complacent. A few changes in our backs could be a good thing. And the linking between forwards and backs has to be better.

I'd like to see

09. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. McFadden (maybe BOD if fit and on form)
13. Bowe
14. Trimble
15. Jones

That's a lot of changes from at 9 to 15 from the Welsh game. But in my opinion that's a better backline. And a new backs coach with new ideas is necessary. Any word on a backs coach? Or is Kidney gonna be the backs coach? I really hope not.

It depends on injuries of course,but Ritchie Mc Caw,should be fit to start.
Matt Todd on the bench,like to see a lot of fringe players get game time.
Zac Guildford for example,Wyatt Crockett,Slade /Crudon starting a new scrum half maybe Mathewson or Leonard.
NOT expecting anything but a major battle the short tours were very fiercly fought in the past.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I know our World Cup ended up being a disappointment but we did have one big achievement. Australia are the next best team in the world after New Zealand. And we beat them in the southern hemisphere. And it was our pack that won it. Convincingly. We have a very good pack. The problem is our attack is nowhere near as good as it was in the mid noughties. If we can get our attacking game right this year we have a chance of catching out New Zealand if they're in any way rusty or complacent. A few changes in our backs could be a good thing. And the linking between forwards and backs has to be better.

I'd like to see

09. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. McFadden (maybe BOD if fit and on form)
13. Bowe
14. Trimble
15. Jones

That's a lot of changes from at 9 to 15 from the Welsh game. But in my opinion that's a better backline. And a new backs coach with new ideas is necessary. Any word on a backs coach? Or is Kidney gonna be the backs coach? I really hope not.

Feckless-
That is exactly the backline I'd choose, and I'd have BOD in there if fit and on form for bowe and move Bowe to the wing and take out which ever of Trimble or Earls was on less form.
Agree that our attack has been our main problem, our backs rarely make clean linebreaks anymore and when they do there isn't a certainty that they are going to finish it off.

I think BOD's career will end playing 12, or at least it should. We should keep D'Arcy at 12 for the 6 nations and blood a new 13 (hopefully Spence).

If BOD's shoulders are busted I'm not sure 12 is the place for him. I don't think he'd thank DK if his 1st task back is stopping Nonu or SBW in their tracks .

If his shoulders are busted I don't think the rugby pitch is the place for him for much longer to me he should either play 12 or not play. He just doesn't have the pace at 13 and we will have the same problems we had at the RWC.

I agree with Rory, when he is injured as well he won't be able to sprint for the guts of 3-4 months his pace, acceleration and agility are only going to go down in that time and he will find it hard to get them back

This is my team for the 6N, the tour to NZ and then a year from now.

1) Healy/Healy/Healy
2) Best/Best/Best
3) Ross/Ross/Ross
4) O'Callaghan/Ryan/Ryan
5) O'Connell/O'Connell/O'Connell
6) Ferris/Ferris/Ferris (please do not get injured)
7) O'Brien/O'Brien/O'Brien
8) Heaslip/Heaslip/O'Mahoney (unless Heaslip discovers his old form)
9) Murray/Murray/Murray
10) Sexton/Sexton/Keatley (I think Keatley could overtake Sexton in the future)
11) Earls/Earls/Kearney Jr (I think one of the leinster wings will come through at this point and I am impressed with Kearney Jr)
12) D'Arcy/BOD/McFadden
13) Spence/Spence/Spence
14) Bowe/Bowe/Gilroy (Bowe will be getting on a bit in a year)
15) Kearney/Jones/Jones

As you can see, I think our pack needs very little changes and was our strength during the RWC. The real changes need to be made in the backs. I think 12 is going to change a great deal over the next while so we should pick a 13 for the 6 nations and stick to him.

Bowe will be getting on a bit in a year

He'll be 28 in a years time

I'm interested to hear why you think in 12 months Ireland should replace Sexton, Earls, Darcy, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney - thats simply overkill I would say.

It isn't just to do with age Stag.. his form hasn't been very good for a while now while Gilroy has been improving and is very talented. I think he could overtake him. Most wingers are also young, 28 is quite old for a winger.

You are asking why we should replace D'Arcy/BOD? Watch the world cup again mate. And the previous 6 nations.

I think Earls will be under pressure for his spot a lot more in a years time, and I think Jones is better than Kearney (if not for injury Jones possibly would be our starting fullback). A lot of teams will be making a lot more changes than the ones I just mentioned by the 6 nations. It is hardly that many.

Also, stag that is the exact backline we played during the RWC where our backs were weak and lacking creativity and just generally poor! Do you really want to continue with the exact same backline?? The pack could stay the same for all I care, it is the backs that need these changes.

red_stag wrote:

Bowe will be getting on a bit in a year

He'll be 28 in a years time

...well I don't think I'll be making a comeback then

I like Rory's thinking in the midfield but Sexton Earls and Bowe should stay.
I agree re: Jones also

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also, stag that is the exact backline we played during the RWC where our backs were weak and lacking creativity and just generally poor! Do you really want to continue with the exact same backline?? The pack could stay the same for all I care, it is the backs that need these changes.

No I want changes to SOME positions and a new attacking coach. Changing all your backs (most of them are in early and mid 20s) simplly because you did badly is a knee jerk reaction.

Why not change the midfield - thats where the issue is.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also, stag that is the exact backline we played during the RWC where our backs were weak and lacking creativity and just generally poor! Do you really want to continue with the exact same backline?? The pack could stay the same for all I care, it is the backs that need these changes.

No I want changes to SOME positions and a new attacking coach. Changing all your backs (most of them are in early and mid 20s) simplly because you did badly is a knee jerk reaction.

Why not change the midfield - thats where the issue is.

I did change the midfield.. I didn't change it for the sake of it either. I think Gilroy will overtake either Bowe or Earls in the future, that is why I put him there. I prefer Jones over Kearney, who could have been starting had he not got injured. I think Earls will be under more pressure in a years time, but easily could be starting. As far as Sexton and Keatley is concerned, I personally like the look of Keatley and hope he continues to grow in the 10 shirt, replacing O'Gara in the not too distant future. I would love to see him challenge Sexton.

Fair enough Rory, to me though it still just smacks of a completely extreme reaction.

But where is the extreme reaction Stag? There is none. The reaction I have from the world cup is our backs lacked creativity, and the weakness was in the midfield. So I changed the midfield. That is the main change in that team. Then Jones over Kearney because he is the better player IMO. Bowe and Earls will be starting for a while yet, but I suggested that they will be under pressure for their places in a years time which can only be good. Same with Sexton under pressure from Keatley. They may win over the competition, but I was just suggesting options.

This is in a YEARS time from now. For the 6 nations as you can see I have changed very little.

The extreme reaction is that your have dropped your flyhalf, your inside centre, your outside centre, your left winger, your right winger and your fullback as well as a new attacking coach in 1 single season.

Its completely excessive.

Where did I change the attacking coach? The extreme reaction seems to be coming from you putting words into peoples mouths. I changed both centres. They need changed. Everyone who watched Ireland over the past season knows that.

I mentioned players who are competing for the back 3 positions. How is that a bad thing? I wasn't saying they are replacing them, I was suggesting players who will challenge to start. Same goes for Keatley, who will challenge Sexton for the 10 shirt. These are GOOD things.

You seem to misunderstand a lot of things you read, stag. You are making things up that I have apparently said. I suggested a possible team for next year, players who will challenge the current crop.

I think dropping Bowe and Sexton for Gilroy and Keatley by the Autumn Internationals 2012 or the 6n in 2013 is just too far. I want them both to come into the team in the summer tour with the dirt trackers and I may want them on the bench in the AI's (the big tests not just against Samoa or something) depending on how they got on between now and then.

Backs coach and new centres are however on the to do list I think.

They are the first things that should be looked into and we should try have some sort of stability around them as they come in.

I wasn't dropping them I was suggesting players who will challenge for their positions.

Sigh.. personally I don't see the problem with strength in depth.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:This is my team for the 6N, the tour to NZ and then a year from now.
1) Healy/Healy/Healy
2) Best/Best/Best
3) Ross/Ross/Ross
4) O'Callaghan/Ryan/Ryan
5) O'Connell/O'Connell/O'Connell
6) Ferris/Ferris/Ferris (please do not get injured)
7) O'Brien/O'Brien/O'Brien
8) Heaslip/Heaslip/O'Mahoney (unless Heaslip discovers his old form)
9) Murray/Murray/Murray
10) Sexton/Sexton/Keatley (I think Keatley could overtake Sexton in the future)
11) Earls/Earls/Kearney Jr (I think one of the leinster wings will come through at this point and I am impressed with Kearney Jr)
12) D'Arcy/BOD/McFadden
13) Spence/Spence/Spence
14) Bowe/Bowe/Gilroy (Bowe will be getting on a bit in a year)
15) Kearney/Jones/Jones

As you can see, I think our pack needs very little changes and was our strength during the RWC. The real changes need to be made in the backs. I think 12 is going to change a great deal over the next while so we should pick a 13 for the 6 nations and stick to him.

No you didn't say they were just going to be challenging for places.
I agree that they will be challenging for bench spots by then possibly quite successfully.

Centres first though please before any of this shinnaigans!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Where did I change the attacking coach?

He is changing automatically Gaffney has not been kept on. I would suggest to change the midfield and see how the team does under the new management.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You said yourself that this time 12 months you want Tommy Bowe, Jonathan Sexton, Keith Earls, Rob Kearney, Gordon Darcy and Brian O'Driscoll all replaced.

That means the most experienced player in our backs would be Conor Murray. How many caps does he have again?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think dropping Bowe and Sexton for Gilroy and Keatley by the Autumn Internationals 2012 or the 6n in 2013 is just too far. I want them both to come into the team in the summer tour with the dirt trackers and I may want them on the bench in the AI's (the big tests not just against Samoa or something) depending on how they got on between now and then.

Backs coach and new centres are however on the to do list I think.

They are the first things that should be looked into and we should try have some sort of stability around them as they come in.

+1

I'd definatly like to see Cave/Spence involved in the 6N at some point.

Whether it be starting or on the bench.

See how D'Arcy gets on in the next couple of months, if not playing well.

McFadden involved to.

Of course(and I hope not) but injuries may occur before the 6N.

I agree Westisbest - we don't have BOD. These guys are doing the business for Ulster. Lets put them in at 13.

I suggested a team for Ireland in a year. That does not mean it will be the team, or that the players I "replaced" are just suddenly removed from the team. I wanted to put down different options to look at in a years time.

I did not say that. You are putting words in my mouth and read what you want to read. I suggested a team for the 6N, a team for NZ and a team for in a years time. I suggested players who could be starting. You would think I said something terrible, suggesting players who may come through for Ireland. You are being very narrow-minded about what you read stag.