Big Bad Courtney Lawes

by Guest Mon 07 Nov 2011, 7:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is this lads problem? all he ever does is talk big off the pitch and steal the odd line out on it!
Nothing more, but his recent comments to BBC Northampton are border line comedy material, and i quote------

"It's a big part of my game I can add a little bit of fear from the opposition."

and to do this a week before Saints face Munster in Europe is just plain stupid! he might as well just paint a great big bulls eye on his back.

Courtney your not an enforcer your just a clumsy lanky cheap shot merchant nothing more,your only coming in 17st at 6ft7" , a 6ft 14st back would put you on your back side.

If i was his head coach i would be telling him to shut up and focus on carrying ball , hitting rucks and defending not getting yellow carded all the time.

Honestly the lad infuriates me,who does he think he is?
As Brian Moore once said when a player late shoulder charged his opponent "it's not big and it's not clever,any idiot could do that,i could throw my 15st of fat into somebody when they are not looking or expecting it"

by belovedfrosties Wed 09 Nov 2011, 5:07 pm

DOD wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhB31tI-qlg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxGzuIl7-xs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF2IzMVgC5k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=7zG9f-dMFJ0

Seems like Courtney likes to rough up the small guys...especially when they arent prepared...

Not pleasant as this one shows..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALgtYUkUgv4

So DOD, by your logic rugby players should stop tackling players that are smaller than they are and when they aren't prepared? Everyone of those tackles was perfectly legal, the knee to ledezema was reckless but i've seen very similar in pretty much every game go unpunished. Not sure why you showed the Rush tackle on him, which could have been a good hard tackle but instead it was high and dangerous and he rightly got carded for it.

by ME-109 Wed 09 Nov 2011, 5:43 pm

I didnt say anything at all about players tackling smaller players etc. I just noted that lots of Lawes so called "big hits" have been on smaller players and on three of them it has been on players unprepared (one newspaper columnist called it cowardly I think).

The Rush hit shows what can happen when someone is unprepared. Its illegal but three of Lawes ones are (Ledesman, The Centre and Parra)....

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 09 Nov 2011, 5:55 pm

DOD wrote:I didnt say anything at all about players tackling smaller players etc. I just noted that lots of Lawes so called "big hits" have been on smaller players and on three of them it has been on players unprepared (one newspaper columnist called it cowardly I think).

The Rush hit shows what can happen when someone is unprepared. Its illegal but three of Lawes ones are (Ledesman, The Centre and Parra)....

DOD, most players on a rugby field would be 'smaller' than the second rows.

by stlowe Wed 09 Nov 2011, 5:57 pm

DOD wrote:
Seems like Courtney likes to rough up the small guys...especially when they arent prepared...

Not pleasant as this one shows..

I know that a lot of people are small compared to Lawes, but describing Tiesi and Ledesma as small is a bit of a stretch. If you are in control of the ball or in the process of getting it away you have to realise you are likely to get tackled.

Worth pointing out that unlike Xavier's (a 6'1" player smashing a 6'7" player's head, not neck, takes some doing), the three Lawes' tackles weren't adjudged to be illegal in terms of timing or technique.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Okay. I'll concede that Ledesma wasn't in touch when Courtney Lawes got to him, but using his knees to 'tackle' a player already on the deck qualifies as a cheap shot in my book. It should in yours too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=7zG9f-dMFJ0

Reckless my @rse, he knew what he was doing.

The first photo I posted clearly shows that Ledesma wasn't already on the deck when Lawes was dipping for the hit. In the short timeframe that followed when he had to pull out, if you think he has time to purposefully line up his knee, you're attributing him some serious abilities.

There's a big difference to watching that incident slowed down compared to full speed (see end of the below link). If you're pulling out of contact whilst already going dipping down for the hit as Lawes was, the natural thing to do is slide to your knees, if he hadn't he would have ended up flopping on top of him, smashing into him head first or trying to stumble over the top of him with his boots, which would likely have been worse. As already poined out, Lawes' knee hits Ledesma on the chest and it's his junk and thigh that collide with Ledesma's head. The damage seems more to be as a result of his head being rocked back by the collision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwe63WX0Xlo&feature=player_embedded

by stlowe Wed 09 Nov 2011, 6:10 pm

DOD wrote:I just noted that lots of Lawes so called "big hits" have been on smaller players

That's because the bigger hits that get put up are always going to be from him getting a good run at the halfbacks or fullbacks following setpieces or chasing kicks. You're also being selective, as you could have put up the videos of his tackles on the likes of Scott Hamilton, Nicky Robinson, Hugo Southwell etc...

DOD wrote:The Rush hit shows what can happen when someone is unprepared. Its illegal but three of Lawes ones are (Ledesman, The Centre and Parra)....

He would have been prepared for a tackle, just not a shoulder/arm to the head. There's a difference between that and making yourself prone because you're kicking or passing the ball. As a defending player you commit yourself to the tackle because a player shaping to do so could easily be about to dummy, so once you're committed and only a step away, that is it (in league I believe 2 steps away is the legal limit). The tackles on Parra and Tiesi were not illegal. Not adjudged to be during the game and not cited for after.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 09 Nov 2011, 6:17 pm

stlowe, I can't be bothered to argue about intent and all that, let's just say we have different views on the incident. I'll just say that I think Courtney Lawes is a great young player and I hope he isn't playing when Wales come to Twickenham in the new year!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 09 Nov 2011, 6:18 pm

stlowe wrote:
DOD wrote:
Seems like Courtney likes to rough up the small guys...especially when they arent prepared...

Not pleasant as this one shows..

I know that a lot of people are small compared to Lawes, but describing Tiesi and Ledesma as small is a bit of a stretch. If you are in control of the ball or in the process of getting it away you have to realise you are likely to get tackled.

Worth pointing out that unlike Xavier's (a 6'1" player smashing a 6'7" player's head, not neck, takes some doing), the three Lawes' tackles weren't adjudged to be illegal in terms of timing or technique.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Okay. I'll concede that Ledesma wasn't in touch when Courtney Lawes got to him, but using his knees to 'tackle' a player already on the deck qualifies as a cheap shot in my book. It should in yours too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=7zG9f-dMFJ0

Reckless my @rse, he knew what he was doing.

The first photo I posted clearly shows that Ledesma wasn't already on the deck when Lawes was dipping for the hit. In the short timeframe that followed when he had to pull out, if you think he has time to purposefully line up his knee, you're attributing him some serious abilities.

There's a big difference to watching that incident slowed down compared to full speed (see end of the below link). If you're pulling out of contact whilst already going dipping down for the hit as Lawes was, the natural thing to do is slide to your knees, if he hadn't he would have ended up flopping on top of him, smashing into him head first or trying to stumble over the top of him with his boots, which would likely have been worse. As already poined out, Lawes' knee hits Ledesma on the chest and it's his junk and thigh that collide with Ledesma's head. The damage seems more to be as a result of his head being rocked back by the collision.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwe63WX0Xlo&feature=player_embedded

Yet the citing panel took a different view? Perhaps not so innocent?

by stlowe Wed 09 Nov 2011, 6:40 pm

He was cited for "recklessly striking an opponent with his knee", it wasn't stated where or with what intent.

The reckless charge can and has frequently been applied to incidents that were also deemed accidental (citings for close call high tackles often qualify as such).

I agree it was reckless, but there is a big difference between that and having intent for a cheap shot. The difference between players like Lawes and Armitage in my book.

by stlowe Wed 09 Nov 2011, 6:52 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:stlowe, I can't be bothered to argue about intent and all that, let's just say we have different views on the incident. I'll just say that I think Courtney Lawes is a great young player and I hope he isn't playing when Wales come to Twickenham in the new year!

Fair enough lucklees. I don't like cheap shot players and won't defend national ones that I feel have that inclination and intent (Armitage for instance), but will those I feel are occasionally reckless because they play close to the edge in giving their all for their team (I'm not a Northampton supporter by the way).

by ME-109 Wed 09 Nov 2011, 7:43 pm

On reflection the tackle on tiesi is a cheap shot as is the one on ledesma. For the parra one it is slightly obscured. So you think that tackling someone without the ball is ok especially when they are turned away...sems to me he has all the hallmarks of being a cheapshot merchant

by stlowe Wed 09 Nov 2011, 8:46 pm

DOD wrote:On reflection the tackle on tiesi is a cheap shot as is the one on ledesma. For the parra one it is slightly obscured. So you think that tackling someone without the ball is ok especially when they are turned away...sems to me he has all the hallmarks of being a cheapshot merchant

Are you suggesting that you should only tackle someone if they are looking directly at you?

All the tackles were committed to whilst the player was still in control of the ball. You don't pull out of a tackle because someone is looking like they might pass or kick, otherwise every attempt at a dummy would succeed. Something the referees and citing panels all agreed with.

by PJHolybloke Wed 09 Nov 2011, 9:04 pm

DOD, have you considered showing an interest in a less physical game?

Or are you just on the wind-up?

by hawalsh Wed 09 Nov 2011, 9:40 pm

It seems a few posters are happy for their national bias to shape their view and are on a bit of a WUM.

The independent citing officials clearly didn't think the incident with Ledesma was intentional or a "cheap shot", otherwise Lawes would have been charged with 'intentionally striking' with the knee rather than 'recklessly striking'. Further emphasised by the fact that at the hearing it was decided to be low-end within the 'recklessly striking' charge. Basically, an unintentional but clumsy accident.

by PJHolybloke Wed 09 Nov 2011, 10:36 pm

Check this out DOD, you'll find the cheap shot at 2.35 - just so you know the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3_RCvTjv2zs

by Guest Wed 09 Nov 2011, 10:36 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:View, you're a proper sausage.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "

Theodore Roosevelt.

Seriously, get over yourself view.
wow you talk some serious sh.it

by PJHolybloke Wed 09 Nov 2011, 10:47 pm

viewtothegym wrote:
PJHolybloke wrote:View, you're a proper sausage.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "

Theodore Roosevelt.

Seriously, get over yourself view.
wow you talk some serious sh.it

It's a quote, the words are by Theodore Roosevelt, it's generally known as the "man in the arena" speech, he made it in 1910 and it stands up under scrutiny today, not bad for 101 years of a changing world full of critics like your good self.

So, according to you, view, Roosevelt "talks some serious sh.it".....?

That's a pretty big ego you got yourself there, I wonder what it's hiding?

by HammerofThunor Thu 10 Nov 2011, 10:49 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Yet the citing panel took a different view? Perhaps not so innocent?

The citing panel took the view that he didn't attempt to tackle and instead used is body to push the player into touch (they felt he had committed to the tackle before he Ledesma was in touch). He didn't attempt to use his arms in the tackle and therefore it was considered dangerous. And so they gave him a low entry ban that was reduced due to his excellent discipline record. It would have been no different than any one of the numourous shoulder barges that are put in all the time on players going in for tries. If any one was cited (as techincally they should) it would result in a ban of a few of weeks depending on the player. Most of the time they're no commented on. Very similar situation with Botha in the last Lions tour. Banned for charging into the ruck without binding (technically a correct ban) but exactly the same thing goes on in most games and doesn't get picked up.

by Guest Thu 10 Nov 2011, 9:29 pm

Im more than aware of that but you quoting him is just nauseating and the context your quoting him in is like talking sh!t

by PJHolybloke Thu 10 Nov 2011, 9:46 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Im more than aware of that but you quoting him is just nauseating and the context your quoting him in is like talking sh!t

Well I thought it was pretty spot on actually, given that Courtney Lawes is a successful Test-playing professional who gets out there and does his business in "the arena", whilst you criticise him from no-mark land in between your visits to the gym in a vain attempt to sort out your weight problem.

I just thought Roosevelt said it far better than I ever could, mainly because I don't have an ego like yours, I won't bother with the semantics.....

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