Sassenachs, Saes, Rosbifs, Poms, Limeys etc. - I'm not offended...

So long as the national epithet is not followed by an expletive or sexual act I couldn't give a [word redacted]

So taking a short random tour around the rugby world - Micks, Taffs, Jocks, Frogs, Convicts, Yanks, (can't immediately think of a non-rugby term for Kiwis)

I think that you'd have to have a skin as fragile as a dry autumn leaf to get upset.

Meanwhile down on the street 'Black', Pakistani and Jewish kids are reclaiming the N, P and Y-words...

My boss calls me 'jock' all the time - some liberal pansy in the office complained about it, and I had to state categorically that I didn't, do not, and will not have a problem with being called that.

IN any case, my boss decides whether to re-hire me, so he can call me whatever he wants, so long as he keeps paying me the big ones.

Portnoy you left off "Pom", "Saes/Sais" and the J-word for Saffas*


*Note, I'm aware that in SA that's not considered a friendly term so I haven't used it - in NZ it's used as a generic term for "South African", in rather the same way as "Pom" for an Englishman.

This subject isn't totally on-topic, but if people want to discuss how they feel about the various nicknames used without it delving into rancour and bickering* please feel free.


*Note, if anyone wants to take it down the typical England vs Wales bickering route I will bin the thread

We need to stop the pc brigade taking over the world. If anyone wants to call me Taff that's fine by me. I'll pretty much accept most would be insults in the right context. I give out a bit of stick so it would be unfair not to be gracious in receipt.

Sweaty sock or Soap dodger - both make me laugh!

This is a discussion about what is acceptable Kiwi.

Kiwireddevil wrote:Portnoy you left off "Pom", "Saes/Sais" and the J-word for Saffas*


*Note, I'm aware that in SA that's not considered a friendly term so I haven't used it - in NZ it's used as a generic term for "South African", in rather the same way as "Pom" for an Englishman.

This subject isn't totally on-topic, but if people want to discuss how they feel about the various nicknames used without it delving into rancour and bickering* please feel free.


*Note, if anyone wants to take it down the typical England vs Wales bickering route I will bin the thread

The Pom etc. bit is in the article title and as for the J-word I haven't a clue what you are talking about. Tom Sharpe in his Wilt novels written in the unreconstructed Saffa days described the Boers as 'hairy backs'.

Now that I would consider as being on the borderline of offensive, but maybe Biltong would have a rational view.

In my view, it's all about treating people as you'd expect to be treated yourself and exercising a bit sensitivity and diplomacy. The term "political correctness" has actually given ammunition to the far right as far as I can see cause they use it the most to justify their own ignorance and inconsideration.

IanBru wrote:My boss calls me 'jock' all the time - some liberal pansy in the office complained about it.

Oh the irony...

Cari wrote:In my view, it's all about treating people as you'd expect to be treated yourself and exercising a bit sensitivity and diplomacy. The term "political correctness" has actually given ammunition to the far right as far as I can see cause they use it the most to justify their own ignorance and inconsideration.

So true Cari,

So is it not right to delineate the line?

Some people on a post to day were getting tetchy about Saes and Taffs (so that's more grist to Kiwi's mill of moderation).

But you can't clear the air without discussing it can you?

I've never had a problem being called a Taff - Sometime I wear it as a badge of honour (as in you're just jealous and wish you were a Taff) - and I call English people Saes all the time, but not in a malicious way (except when talking about the rugby team) and I have lots of good friends who are English and don't think that they get upset by it. It's just banter.

There are obviously some names that aren't banter and are outright insults but I'd say Yank, Kiwi, Pom, Taff, Jock, Mick and Limeys are in pretty common usage and are pretty common. So is Frogs but you can see why that might be taken a bit more insultingly.

I can't really see the problem with what ever you call someone, as long as it is clear it aint meant offensive. I have no problems with being called Taff, even though realistically a Teff is from Cardiff way, where as I am more of a tight-fisted, slow witted, sheep lover as I am from the west.

Also I believe that the work Yank was originally an American nickname for the british (mainly english), and was later re-aimed to the confederates (Northeners) to insult them, but over time has had its meaning changed to just an america

Yeah, most of the terms aren't really offensive in themselves and it's more the way in which they are intended.

Pom/limey are actually terms to describe Brits rather than just English aren't they?

I thought Limey was a term to describe English people but that the Americans (and others) had used it to include all Brits (as they can't distinguish between us). But as far as I'm aware Pom is a Brit thing.

(If you'd prefer I could create another nickname for the English )

Pardon my ignorance but what does Saes meant to be? The description below doesn't really explain it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_names_for_the_British

Wiki's take on alternatives names for the British.

I personally don't mind them as long as there isn't too much malice behind them.

In a weird sort of way I quite like the French nicknames for us - Les goddams and les rosbif.

I always assumed the term Saes came from the Welsh word Saesneg, meaning English.

beshocked wrote:In a weird sort of way I quite like the French nicknames for us - Les goddams and les rosbif.

Yeah, same here. Apparently we swear a lot of eat roast beef

It's funny how 'French leave' refers to going AWOL when the English say it and it's 'English leave' from their viewpoint.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

beshocked wrote:In a weird sort of way I quite like the French nicknames for us - Les goddams and les rosbif.

Yeah, same here. Apparently we swear a lot of eat roast beef

It's funny how 'French leave' refers to going AWOL when the English say it and it's 'English leave' from their viewpoint.

Let's not get started on the respective English and French Poxes

Portnoy, apologies for my Poms/Limeys dig earlier, busy day at work and I didn't really read the title of the post, just the text.

CurlyOsp wrote:I always assumed the term Saes came from the Welsh word Saesneg, meaning English.

I think it does CurlyOsp, and Saeson means English man, so it's just shortened to Saes.

All to do with how it was meant and how it was taken.

Me and my mates started calling the saffas “squareheads” after the 95 WC. You only need to look at Kobus Weisse to understand why

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also I believe that the work Yank was originally an American nickname for the british (mainly english), and was later re-aimed to the confederates (Northeners) to insult them, but over time has had its meaning changed to just an america

Try telling that to someone from the Southern States!

The thing is Saes is derived from the word Saesneg which means English in Welsh( direct translation is saxon) as does the scotts use of Saasanach again with the same origin.

Taff however is an insult that has been aimed at the welsh for over 400 years. Taff comes from a nursery rhyme where all welshman are described as thieves untrustworthy and dishonest. It has been used by the political right wing to attack welsh politicians on the national stage. It was thrown at Kinnock and at DLG and is an insult whether my countrymen realise it or not.

If you are going to refer to my nationality in a rugby debate then Im welsh, Im not a taffy, to refer to me like that is insulting and discriminatory.

Mainly these national epithets derive from externally perceived national traits, culture, diet, culture etc, e.g. Paddies (St Patrick), Taffs (R. Taff), Krauts, Rosbifs, and Frogs.

Or linguistically based e.g. Saes, Sassenach (?) etc. or abbreviations thereof e.g. the P-word. Ityes, Argies etc. In America I believe that Polak comes under the same category. In the nineteenth century GB as classical education spread, blacks were referred to by their Latin direct translation (c.f. Nigeria, Niger).

Not many national sobriquets are seemingly initially derived as offensive, but the tone of voice and the manner of delivery suddenly tips the epithet into the abyss of non-PC.

Or

An an unfortunate combination of the above - e.g. Nips (Nippon or stature?)

TycroesOsprey wrote:The thing is Saes is derived from the word Saesneg which means English in Welsh( direct translation is saxon) as does the scotts use of Saasanach again with the same origin.

Taff however is an insult that has been aimed at the welsh for over 400 years. Taff comes from a nursery rhyme where all welshman are described as thieves untrustworthy and dishonest. It has been used by the political right wing to attack welsh politicians on the national stage. It was thrown at Kinnock and at DLG and is an insult whether my countrymen realise it or not.

If you are going to refer to my nationality in a rugby debate then Im welsh, Im not a taffy, to refer to me like that is insulting and discriminatory.

Oh behave......you're obviously far too sensitive. Only time I ever drew the line was in Cardiff after we'd been turned over by wales. Stood 'splashing my boots' in some sports bar near the center when some little fella wobbles in, takes up the one hand against the wall for support position, looks at me in my england shirt and says: 'Sorry mate but I hate all you english (insert word that rhymes with punts)'
Got a little agrieved at that in fairness but the odds of 5 white shirts amidst 500 red disuaded me from my preffered course of action. But only just.

ultra wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:The thing is Saes is derived from the word Saesneg which means English in Welsh( direct translation is saxon) as does the scotts use of Saasanach again with the same origin.

Taff however is an insult that has been aimed at the welsh for over 400 years. Taff comes from a nursery rhyme where all welshman are described as thieves untrustworthy and dishonest. It has been used by the political right wing to attack welsh politicians on the national stage. It was thrown at Kinnock and at DLG and is an insult whether my countrymen realise it or not.

If you are going to refer to my nationality in a rugby debate then Im welsh, Im not a taffy, to refer to me like that is insulting and discriminatory.

Oh behave......you're obviously far too sensitive. Only time I ever drew the line was in Cardiff after we'd been turned over by wales. Stood 'splashing my boots' in some sports bar near the center when some little fella wobbles in, takes up the one hand against the wall for support position, looks at me in my england shirt and says: 'Sorry mate but I hate all you english (insert word that rhymes with punts)'
Got a little agrieved at that in fairness but the odds of 5 white shirts amidst 500 red disuaded me from my preffered course of action. But only just.

Please don't go down the retaliatory route.

This is a discussion about national 'nicknames' - not the stuff we have been offended by on international away trips.

Good job people who get offended by these nicknames aren't in the forces. Welsh= Taff. Scottish = Jock. N Ireland = Paddy. Unless you had a surname identical to someone in/famous, you were automatically given those nicknames! Living and working in Wales, getting called a saes Barstool, especially around 6 nations time, is just a laugh. Peeps get to sensitive nowadays...

Funny, oversensitive is a word that is always used to defend offensive language. It was used in the seventies when people complained about the black and white minstrel show or Bernard mannings humour(if you can call it that). Whenever you refer to sombody by a derogatory term linked to their nationality you are being discrimanatory and biggotted, whether you like that or not. As for the forces, whilst I admire the work that is done on behalf of Britain it can hardly be held up as a paragon of virtue in the race relations stakes. Look at how many times the Army has had to pay out in compensation after racist abuse. It was named along with the RN and RAF after the Lawrence report as institutionally racist.

Simple way to avoid these issues, dont use derogatory terms linked to someones nationality and you dont offend people by being an ignorant bigot.

Also, Saes is a direct translation of the word Englishman, Saesneg refers to teh english language, Saeson refers to the English people.

Thats very different to taff or kraut or frog etc. It is a real word not a monicker.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Funny, oversensitive is a word that is always used to defend offensive language. It was used in the seventies when people complained about the black and white minstrel show or Bernard mannings humour(if you can call it that). Whenever you refer to sombody by a derogatory term linked to their nationality you are being discrimanatory and biggotted, whether you like that or not. As for the forces, whilst I admire the work that is done on behalf of Britain it can hardly be held up as a paragon of virtue in the race relations stakes. Look at how many times the Army has had to pay out in compensation after racist abuse. It was named along with the RN and RAF after the Lawrence report as institutionally racist.

Simple way to avoid these issues, dont use derogatory terms linked to someones nationality and you dont offend people by being an ignorant bigot.

I don;t disagree, but by that measure i wouldn't be defending Saes if i was you. It isn't used as an affectionate term is it. As you say, there's a perfectly good word for the Welsh...Welsh, ditto the English.

To be honest, i don;t see how it's so hard. It's just about manners isn't it? I know no-one is going to be offended by the term welsh, so that's my default saying. Krauts, convicts, frogs etc. Fine, hilarious, but the obsession with 'banter' is basically childishness. If you know someone well, fine, if you don't, be polite and don't be a d***.

Fair enough that sounds really precious, but when i hear someone talking about political correctness going mad etc my heart sinks. I don't think people shouldn't be able to say these terms, but just exercise some common sense, not everyone will find them funny or charming.

I see your point and agree Hood but, Saes is a literal translation of the word Englishman. Welsh is my first language not English. It is therefore entirely natural for me to refer to an englishman as Saes. It is not a derogatory term it is a word in the welsh language. Is Englander offensive when a german uses it or Angl when used by a frenchman?

The word welsh is an english word. Not a word in my language, I dont get offended when you refer to me as welsh because in the English language that is the word you should use. The perfectly good word to describe me is cymro not welsh but Ill take welsh, I hate taffy or any of its derivatives though.

Portnoy wrote:So long as the national epithet is not followed by an expletive or sexual act I couldn't give a [word redacted]

So taking a short random tour around the rugby world - Micks, Taffs, Jocks, Frogs, Convicts, Yanks, (can't immediately think of a non-rugby term for Kiwis)

I think that you'd have to have a skin as fragile as a dry autumn leaf to get upset.

Meanwhile down on the street 'Black', Pakistani and Jewish kids are reclaiming the N, P and Y-words...

Why did you use the "N, P and Y-words" instead of the full words? If you have that much courage of your convictions then surely you should have.

Nobody but me gets to decide what does or does not offend me.

iso wrote:

Portnoy wrote:So long as the national epithet is not followed by an expletive or sexual act I couldn't give a [word redacted]

So taking a short random tour around the rugby world - Micks, Taffs, Jocks, Frogs, Convicts, Yanks, (can't immediately think of a non-rugby term for Kiwis)

I think that you'd have to have a skin as fragile as a dry autumn leaf to get upset.

Meanwhile down on the street 'Black', Pakistani and Jewish kids are reclaiming the N, P and Y-words...

Why did you use the "N, P and Y-words" instead of the full words? If you have that much courage of your convictions then surely you should have.

Simple iso.

The N, P and Y-words are fully tainted and are generally considered as offensive and unacceptable in any context. My use of them would have brought down the article at a stroke.

Portnoy wrote:

iso wrote:

Portnoy wrote:So long as the national epithet is not followed by an expletive or sexual act I couldn't give a [word redacted]

So taking a short random tour around the rugby world - Micks, Taffs, Jocks, Frogs, Convicts, Yanks, (can't immediately think of a non-rugby term for Kiwis)

I think that you'd have to have a skin as fragile as a dry autumn leaf to get upset.

Meanwhile down on the street 'Black', Pakistani and Jewish kids are reclaiming the N, P and Y-words...

Why did you use the "N, P and Y-words" instead of the full words? If you have that much courage of your convictions then surely you should have.

Simple iso.

The N, P and Y-words are fully tainted and are generally considered as offensive and unacceptable in any context. My use of them would have brought down the article at a stroke.

Thought they were being reclaimed? So acceptable in certain contexts? Get your story straight.

They are reclaiming the insult for themselves. It'll take time (or an eternity) before they become universally acceptable.

In Golf, Steve Williams (Tiger Woods' ex-caddie) is currently in deep, hot water for breaking (essentially) the first line of my OP.

If he'd refrained from describing the colour of his back passage, then he'd be exempted from all charges of racism.

TycroesOsprey wrote:I see your point and agree Hood but, Saes is a literal translation of the word Englishman. Welsh is my first language not English. It is therefore entirely natural for me to refer to an englishman as Saes. It is not a derogatory term it is a word in the welsh language. Is Englander offensive when a german uses it or Angl when used by a frenchman?

The word welsh is an english word. Not a word in my language, I dont get offended when you refer to me as welsh because in the English language that is the word you should use. The perfectly good word to describe me is cymro not welsh but Ill take welsh, I hate taffy or any of its derivatives though.

Just because it's a literal translation doesn't mean it's not used as a derogatory term! But get the point that it's your first language and frankly you know better than i do on this so fair enough. I've never thought taff was a particularly friendly term, as i say, Welsh seems perfectly good to me, or as you say, cymro - even better i guess. I like the idea of using the language of those you are talking about to describe them.

Wasn't taff originally used for people from Cardiff ?

Why bother calling people anything other than their name. There's a thought. If an Englishman called me paddy or mick i would deck them..in fact i had the pleasure of doing that while watching the england v Argentina game of the 95 world cup.

[quote="DOD"]Why bother calling people anything other than their name. There's a thought. If an Englishman called me paddy or mick i would deck them..in fact i had the pleasure of doing that while watching the england v Argentina game of the 95 world cup. [/quot

That's a fair and reasoned response...

Maybe I can offer a little extreme perspective from my own sick experience:

As a young doctor, I was serving with peacekeepers in Yugoslavia in the mid-1990s. My group consisted of Scots, Welsh, English, Canadians and some from the Western Isles. Some of the local gentry in one of the villages where we were assigned insisted we were all Irish (we all look alike, you see). Initially we took it as a bit of a bad joke. However, we were not always dealing with some of God's gentlest individuals. And, after a short amount of time the real nasty adjectives started to precede their other adjectives about we Irish. Eventually we realised the only course of action before this escalated in the way of all ethno-fights in that country at that time was for us to employ a bit of peacable and gentle re-education.

The insults had crossed the line, even by the standards of their sick and peverted environment. And the insults lead to more insults and eventually, violence. The funny part was that we always referred to each other as Saes, Taffs, Pommybastards, Lumberjack, Primatives, and more (MFs, of course). And we never gave it a second thought. But when the words were used by the locals with increasingly bad intent (and outright threatening with weapons in hand) that changed everything and we had to react.

I guess the moral of my rampling flashback is that sometimes words may not be so bad, but it is the intent with which they are used and the sensitivity of those to whom the comments are directed. Its up to us to judge and do what we think is right.

And, by the way, I think the "N" word, and the "Y" word, along with their alternate and synonyms will always be miles beyond the Pale. Forever.

Isn't Taff from the River Taff? The rhyme mentioned above by Tycroes is certainly objectionable, but wouldn't be improved by substituting Taffy with Cymro. It's the intent that counts, and that can get associated with certain words depending on the cultural/social context. "Jap" is considered extremely offensive by the Japanese becasue of the legacy of american racism in the 1920s and beyond. The word itself is simply the short version of Japanese, so has no intrinsically insutling meaning.

TycroesOsprey - You need to get that chip off your shoulder mate!!

The actual meaning of the word is irrelevant. What is offensive is the history and past experience that it connotes. For instance, from a South African perspective, a word like 'kaffir', which literally means 'someone who does not believe in Islam', has come to be regarded by black people as deeply offensive because it was used in conjuction with widespread discrimination and oppression. Anyword that the oppressor uses to describe you will be considered offensive for the rest of your life.
This is why English people (in the British context) and white people (in a global context) struggle to understand why people get so uptight about such un-PC language: - because they have not been the victims of real oppression and discrimination for millenia, and hence any word, no matter how rude, can be considered merely banter, because it doesn't bring up a history of past painful experiences!

wrfc1980 wrote:TycroesOsprey - You need to get that chip off your shoulder mate!!

Ah that would be the chip salted with a bit of national socialism and covered in the vinegar of apartheid and ignorance?

The red hills may be fine but clearly us in the black mountains dont count!

Mr Fishpaste wrote:The actual meaning of the word is irrelevant. What is offensive is the history and past experience that it connotes. For instance, from a South African perspective, a word like 'kaffir', which literally means 'someone who does not believe in Islam', has come to be regarded by black people as deeply offensive because it was used in conjuction with widespread discrimination and oppression. Anyword that the oppressor uses to describe you will be considered offensive for the rest of your life.
This is why English people (in the British context) and white people (in a global context) struggle to understand why people get so uptight about such un-PC language: - because they have not been the victims of real oppression and discrimination for millenia, and hence any word, no matter how rude, can be considered merely banter, because it doesn't bring up a history of past painful experiences!

I'm sorry mate, but I completely disagree with your premise that white people, and Brits in particular, cannot understand inflammatory, near-racist, and racist comments and discrimination. In these isles alone there are many examples. Just for one, why are Jews still inexplicably on the butt end of bad jokes? Northerners? And let's not start with the Troubles? None of those have been on the bad end of what you refer to as 'real discrimination'? And in the larger world there are many, many more. In other words, everyone, regardless of background knows good language from bad, and what is acceptable in different places and times.

And it is OK to discuss these things. That's where understanding comes from.

No, mate, the real point is to have good, rock solid, common sense regarding what one says and where. Combine that with a bit of sense of humour, tolerance and respect. There you have it: life.

Thus endeth the sermon.

Portnoy wrote:
The N, P and Y-words are fully tainted and are generally considered as offensive and unacceptable in any context. My use of them would have brought down the article at a stroke.

Guys what's the Y-word used to describe Jews? I've heard of the K-word, but not a Y-word.

Mr fishpaste makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Just to end this particular debate I bid all you wall, jumpin', sheep lovin' cucumber sandwich eatin', garlic stinkin', potato cookin' wanabees goodnight.

Rugby anyone?

lol good thread.

in regards to the taff thing

get over it will ya welshies. what would you rather taff or sheep shagger. we see taff as a friendly thing these days- probally due to dads army and doesnt someone on here call himself taff in his username.