Was Bruno washed up/shot/finished when he became World champion?.

I always wondered why Frank Bruno did not take a couple of gimmies before he fought Tyson. After beating Mcall Bruno realised his dream of becoming heavyweight champion but I wonder you know, if at that stage of his career, Bruno already knew he was finished. Bruno had a long and hard career before that fight with Oliver Mccall and decided to face Mike Tyson, recently released from prison, instead of milking his reign as champ.Did Bruno and his team have other options or was it purely for the money that they went for a re-match with Tyson? Did they believe that they Tyson was rusty and that it was the best opportunity to face him? Why not a potential big money fight with Lewis? Or why not take on some fringe contender?

He was just terrified.......plain and simple in Tyson 2..

No different a "fighter" than he always was...

If you say he was washed up then he would have had to have some talent to begin with........Hard if slow jab and decent power were his cornerstones....

Think he kept those throughout his career..

I think he was done. He just scraped through against Mccall and looked terrible.

I've often wondered if there was a fix in for Bruno v McCall.

McCall was a Don King man, and with his iron chin and intimate knowledge of Tyson garnered from his days as one of his principle sparring partners, King might just have figured that McCall would have been trickier for a comebacking Tyson than Bruno.

Funny how the little things stick in your mind. I read somewhere that King rang Tyson and said, words to the effect : " Yep, Bruno won it fair and square " Could be perfectly innocent, of course, but with Don King you never know.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I've often wondered if this one was really on the level.

Funnily enough Windy was speaking to a friends father some time ago who attended Bruno McCall and he was saying the same, swears to this day the fight was not above board. Like yourself am not a big one for conspiracies but when people not normally prone to such flights of fancy start saying the same things its food for thought.

Hello we'll have LBJ seeing off Kennedy next!!!

I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

Think that fight was a bit of a fluke tbh Lewis was not at his best I also think the ref should not have stopped it look at the rematch where Lewis won comfortably he was much much better than McCall. I think it was also similar with Rahman Lewis was far better but he was not at his best in the first fight and not focused but he destroyed him in their rematch that shows his quality.

Tyson would have far too much for McCall imo I dont think it would close. Yes McCall had a good chin but Tyson had huge power and skill and was far better overall cant see McCall winning.

alma wrote:Wasn't Tyson the WBC mandatory at that point?

I thought that was the case myself.

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

Think that fight was a bit of a fluke tbh Lewis was not at his best I also think the ref should not have stopped it look at the rematch where Lewis won comfortably he was much much better than McCall. I think it was also similar with Rahman Lewis was far better but he was not at his best in the first fight and not focused but he destroyed him in their rematch that shows his quality.

Tyson would have far too much for McCall imo I dont think it would close. Yes McCall had a good chin but Tyson had huge power and skill and was far better overall cant see McCall winning.

Tyson wasn't at his best, either.

There was nothing for Lewis to ' destroy ' second time out. Did you see the fight? How did Lewis show his quality in that farce?

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

Think that fight was a bit of a fluke tbh Lewis was not at his best I also think the ref should not have stopped it look at the rematch where Lewis won comfortably he was much much better than McCall. I think it was also similar with Rahman Lewis was far better but he was not at his best in the first fight and not focused but he destroyed him in their rematch that shows his quality.

Tyson would have far too much for McCall imo I dont think it would close. Yes McCall had a good chin but Tyson had huge power and skill and was far better overall cant see McCall winning.

Tyson wasn't at his best, either.

There was nothing for Lewis to ' destroy ' second time out. Did you see the fight? How did Lewis show his quality in that farce?

In the second fight with Rahman Lewis was unbelievable mate look at the knock out not sure where you are getting he was not quality from that was one of his best performances imo

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

Think that fight was a bit of a fluke tbh Lewis was not at his best I also think the ref should not have stopped it look at the rematch where Lewis won comfortably he was much much better than McCall. I think it was also similar with Rahman Lewis was far better but he was not at his best in the first fight and not focused but he destroyed him in their rematch that shows his quality.

Tyson would have far too much for McCall imo I dont think it would close. Yes McCall had a good chin but Tyson had huge power and skill and was far better overall cant see McCall winning.

I'd hardly say you can give Lewis much credit for the rematch since McCall never mentally turned up if anything Lewis was getting free punches during that fight and couldn't shift McCall, hell he didn't look troubled at all during that fight by anything Lewis was doing.

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

Think that fight was a bit of a fluke tbh Lewis was not at his best I also think the ref should not have stopped it look at the rematch where Lewis won comfortably he was much much better than McCall. I think it was also similar with Rahman Lewis was far better but he was not at his best in the first fight and not focused but he destroyed him in their rematch that shows his quality.

Tyson would have far too much for McCall imo I dont think it would close. Yes McCall had a good chin but Tyson had huge power and skill and was far better overall cant see McCall winning.

Tyson wasn't at his best, either.

There was nothing for Lewis to ' destroy ' second time out. Did you see the fight? How did Lewis show his quality in that farce?

In the second fight with Rahman Lewis was unbelievable mate look at the knock out not sure where you are getting he was not quality from that was one of his best performances imo

My apologies, Waingro. Completely misread that paragraph. I thought you were referring to the second McCall fight.

Sorry, mate.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

Think that fight was a bit of a fluke tbh Lewis was not at his best I also think the ref should not have stopped it look at the rematch where Lewis won comfortably he was much much better than McCall. I think it was also similar with Rahman Lewis was far better but he was not at his best in the first fight and not focused but he destroyed him in their rematch that shows his quality.

Tyson would have far too much for McCall imo I dont think it would close. Yes McCall had a good chin but Tyson had huge power and skill and was far better overall cant see McCall winning.

Tyson wasn't at his best, either.

There was nothing for Lewis to ' destroy ' second time out. Did you see the fight? How did Lewis show his quality in that farce?

In the second fight with Rahman Lewis was unbelievable mate look at the knock out not sure where you are getting he was not quality from that was one of his best performances imo

My apologies, Waingro. Completely misread that paragraph. I thought you were referring to the second McCall fight.

Sorry, mate.

You're not the only one.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

Think that fight was a bit of a fluke tbh Lewis was not at his best I also think the ref should not have stopped it look at the rematch where Lewis won comfortably he was much much better than McCall. I think it was also similar with Rahman Lewis was far better but he was not at his best in the first fight and not focused but he destroyed him in their rematch that shows his quality.

Tyson would have far too much for McCall imo I dont think it would close. Yes McCall had a good chin but Tyson had huge power and skill and was far better overall cant see McCall winning.

Tyson wasn't at his best, either.

There was nothing for Lewis to ' destroy ' second time out. Did you see the fight? How did Lewis show his quality in that farce?

In the second fight with Rahman Lewis was unbelievable mate look at the knock out not sure where you are getting he was not quality from that was one of his best performances imo

My apologies, Waingro. Completely misread that paragraph. I thought you were referring to the second McCall fight.

Sorry, mate.

No worries the second fight with McCall was weird who knows what McCall was thinking think he just lost it

Mccall wasn't a fluke!!! Steward trained him to wait for the lazy jab and to throw the right...

Lewis only became a good heavy after Correa....remember Bruno was outfoxing him for the first six rounds...

Let's just get it straight Lewis in them days wasn't that hot!!

Lewis was quality none of the American fighters wanted to face him imo lets not forget chicken Bowe threw his belt in a bin coz he did want to face Lewis who destroyed him in the amateurs and Tyson paid him a million dollars so he didnt have to face him trust me they knew how good he was and did not want to take the risk

Here we go again...

We are all cowards in America..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Here we go again...

We are all cowards in America..

You're just jealous Truss, having to muddle through with the likes of Dempsey, Johnson and Ali, you wish Lewis was one of yours

True Truss, Bruno was all over Lennox when they fought and was ahead on my card

You're joking aren't you Rowley!!!... they would have run a mile too!!!

Didn't you see how Lewis recovered from Akinwande decking him, Briggs staggering him and Mercer nearly beating him...I mean COME ON!!!

rowley wrote:You're just jealous Truss, having to muddle through with the likes of Dempsey, Johnson and Ali, you wish Lewis was one of yours

Ali was quality imo, knocked out Foreman who was a beast lol.

ali was quality no denying that imo he was the best of all time but Dempsey did not fight black boxers when he was champ and Johnson could well have been involved in fixes so imo these guys are not true champs you cannot be involved in stuff like fixing or not fighting black opponents and call yourself a true champ that would not be allowed today.

Ali is the best of all time because he fought all the best challengers and beat them all apart from when he was past it at the end that was not his fault. Can Dempsey and Johnson say the same? Im not sure they can how can you say fought the best if you do not fight black boxers or fix fights???

Scottrf wrote:Ali was quality imo, knocked out Foreman who was a beast lol.

Waingro wrote:ali was quality no denying that imo

Copying me

Lewis didn't fight the best either...Didn't fight Bowe....

Politics!!! Sure If you read around a little you might have more sympathy for the predicament of Dempsey and Johnson..

Bowe had Holy and more dollars...

Surely by your logic, waingro, Marciano is the best, because not only did he fight everyone and beat them all, but he also knew when to quit? He didn't fix fights and he fought black fighters too. What do we say? Hurray for Rocky? Or possibly not, depending on where your logic takes you.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Surely by your logic, waingro, Marciano is the best, because not only did he fight everyone and beat them all, but he also knew when to quit? He didn't fix fights and he fought black fighters too. What do we say? Hurray for Rocky? Or possibly not, depending on where your logic takes you.

Marciano was quality i rate him as the 4th best heavyweight only Ali, Lewis and Tyson are ahead of him imo. He never lost you cant deny that but i also think he would lose to Ali, Tyson and Lewis if he was around at the same time so you have to think about it in that way too even though he never lost. I would love to see those fights though i have to admit they would be very close except maybe Lewis against Marciano he would be far too big for Marciano i think so would win easily like he did against Tyson.

I was just checking.

captain carrantuohil wrote:I was just checking.

What, for signs of life?

I'm wondering If ...

This guy is either the dumbest guy on the planet..

Or Stephen Hawking on the wind up...

Truss, Hawking has already posited via an interpretation of the steady state theory that Marciano was, strictly on the basis of weight/power ratio, likely to thrash Lewis with one hand tied behind his back.

Far more likely that this gentleman is a direct descendant of Albert Einstein.

I think I just got a brain tumour from reading this thread.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Truss, Hawking has already posited via an interpretation of the steady state theory that Marciano was, strictly on the basis of weight/power ratio, likely to thrash Lewis with one hand tied behind his back.

Far more likely that this gentleman is a direct descendant of Albert Einstein.

It's quite possible your right Captain since he's certainly using a level of logic beyond any of us.

BALTIMORA wrote:I think I just got a brain rumour from reading this thread.

I think it will remain a rumour.

Scottrf wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:I think I just got a brain rumour from reading this thread.

I think it will remain a rumour.

Jesus nippletwisting Christ, stupid frotting autocorrect!!!

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:I do not think it was a fix Tyson would have absolutely destroyed McCall imo he had far too much quality for him lets tbh McCall was not that great

Neither was Tyson at that point.

You're a big Lewis fan, aren't you? How did he get on against McCall, first time out?

Good shot Windy, hats off to you.

Waingro wrote:ali was quality no denying that imo he was the best of all time but Dempsey did not fight black boxers when he was champ and Johnson could well have been involved in fixes so imo these guys are not true champs you cannot be involved in stuff like fixing or not fighting black opponents and call yourself a true champ that would not be allowed today.

Ali is the best of all time because he fought all the best challengers and beat them all apart from when he was past it at the end that was not his fault. Can Dempsey and Johnson say the same? Im not sure they can how can you say fought the best if you do not fight black boxers or fix fights???

Strange sense of deja vu with this.

well at least this didnt descend into nonsense.
starts with an interesting question then some interesting debate then ends with brain tumours and nippletwists...

To get back on topic I don't think that he was particularly washed up for the first fight just out of his depth and a little scared. The second fight he was clearly terrified, as highlighted by the 50 or so times he crossed himself.

Waingro I genuinely dont know whether to laugh or cry when I see you write things like Dempsey and Johnson were not true champions, yet are happy to parade a scamster like Haye as the bastion of credibility and all things hopeful in the heavyweight division. How I wish we had some more of your "not true champions" around today and less of the "al time great cruiserweights" like Haye.

Given that Bruno retired after he lost the title I think it's fair to say he was 'past-prime'.

BALTIMORA wrote:Given that Bruno retired after he lost the title I think it's fair to say he was 'past-prime'.

2could be wrong but wasnt it
partly to do with mental problems wasnt it?

AlexHuckerby wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Given that Bruno retired after he lost the title I think it's fair to say he was 'past-prime'.

2could be wrong but wasnt it
partly to do with mental problems wasnt it?

I thought that only came out after? Either way, my point was just that he'd had 45 fights, four of them title fights and had lost five times by the time he retired, although admittedly a quick check reveals he wasn't that old; only 34. Interestingly though, only two of his fights went the distance, and all his losses were by stoppage.

Simple answer-no . He won the first ten rounds against McCall boxing nicely behind the jab, and then ran out of steam and scrapped home, similar pattern to he fight against Smith all those years before, except this time he managed to hold on. His management did him no favours by agreeing to the second Tyson fight without having milked a few easier defences, and if I recall he didn't even get that well paid- Tyson got more than he did. His retirement was more down to him having achieved his goal- he was aworld champ. I don't think he coulld have ever really got himself fired up again having reached that goal.

Lets make waingro's head explode.

Bruno vs Haye! Who wins.

ShahenshahG wrote:Lets make waingro's head explode.

Bruno vs Haye! Who wins.

youre just being mean now i can imagine waingro curled up in a ball rocking backwards and forwards crying.

There simply was no option for Bruno to 'milk' the WBC belt once he'd won it. Let's remember that big Frank had done absolutely nothing to get his shot at McCall in the first place - when Warren eventually struck a deal with King to make the fight happen, it was under the condition that Bruno took on Tyson within 190 days if he were to win. Had Bruno earned his shot, he'd have had much more freedom (for a fight or two) to fight who he saw fit, but a fight no more than 190 days later against Tyson was the currency he paid for leapfrogging over the more deserving contenders (a certain Lennox Lewis being one of them).

Was he past his best by then? Well, it's not often that you see a thirty-four year old producing the best of their career, but if Bruno had slipped, it wasn't by much. As others have said, the McCall bout was typical Frank - strong at the start, establishing a lead with that jab and a few right crosses, before the inevitable dip in the latter rounds in which he always took punishment. Only difference is, this time he managed to cling on for dear life against a man who, oddly enough, didn't seem in the least bit bothered that his title was slipping away until around the ninth round.

ive always wondered when a fighter is clearly losing doing what hes doing why is it rare to see them change it up until near the end? makes no sense to me!

AlexHuckerby wrote:ive always wondered when a fighter is clearly losing doing what hes doing why is it rare to see them change it up until near the end? makes no sense to me!

Can't speak for them all, but I reckon you're wasting your time trying to figure it out in McCall's case, Alex! The man is just about as 'gone' in the head as it gets.