The greatest of all time

First topic message reminder :

After watching this weeks edition of impact with flair, sting and hogan all involved in the main event it got me thinking if you added the undertaker to that trio you would probably have the four biggest draws and debatably the four greatest wrestlers of all time! I'm not implying that the four aforementioned competitors are still main event caliber or can still cut it at the top level because that is evidently not the case, but in terms of their track records, championship reigns and house hold name factor you would class them as top draw.

So my question to you is... Who would you class as the greatest of all time? Whats your top four and why? I don't wanna know about personal favourites as that was done a couple of weeks back but if you had to pick your top stars of all time who would they be and why?

Please try to evaluate:

Ability to draw
Championships
In ring ability
Promo skills
5 star matches

Peace

I disagree Brady, The 3 you mentioned need the matches to be able to pull. If the Rock for example just walked most of his matches, would he still have had the same pull? Though i suppose the promo comes into the equation, his matches were what put him up where he was.
And isn't this part of the problem with Cena, in that he has the other aspects but very rarely the matches.

tigerrobins wrote:I disagree Brady, The 3 you mentioned need the matches to be able to pull. If the Rock for example just walked most of his matches, would he still have had the same pull? Though i suppose the promo comes into the equation, his matches were what put him up where he was.
And isn't this part of the problem with Cena, in that he has the other aspects but very rarely the matches.

If you could only pick one factor is what I meant... I'd pick ability to draw, surely that's what it's all about? Hogan Andre for example was an awful match but is probably the greatest single spectacle in wrestling history

Mr H wrote:

How can you ask someone a question of who is the greatest of all time, then ask them not to say their personal favourite? It just doesnt make sense! I think Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time, but if someone else doesnt think so, does that make me wrong? Hence why every answer is down to personal preference.

Maybe its just me, but i dont see how you can answer the question without personal preference.



Maybe its just me!

I answered without (much) personal preference. Bret Hart was outside my Era, I grew up with the Attitude, the only thing I knew of Bret Hart growing up was the sharpshooter in the Malcolm in the Middle opening. HOWEVER, I put personal preference aside because I KNOW he's one of the greatest ever, and ticks all the boxes. If I went full blown personal preference I would have put Brock Lesnar in there, always was a favourite of mine.

You hit the nail on the end Samo!!!! If I relate this to football for example my team is spurs (cue the boo's) and I follow them passionately and are my favourite team above all others, however I am aware enough to realise that they are not the greatest club of all time. I think if you can be objective enough to look at all the areas then a non bias answer is achievable.

legendkillar wrote:

Mr H wrote:The Iron Man Match at Mania 12 was no way 5 star in my opinion.

5 star matches would surely have to go to Shawn Michaels. Razor Ramon, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, The Undertaker and Ric Flair all at Wrestlemania are all far more entertaining in ring matches than any of Bret Harts.

I didnt say Flair at Mania was 5 star did i, i just said i found it more entertaining than any of Bret Harts matches. The story and the emotion of it had me hooked. Dont get me wrong Bret Hart is technically sound and no doubt one of the best ever, but personally i found alot of his matches too methodical and i quickly got bored of his moveset.

So what did you say???

And you want to bang your head against the wall or shall I do it for you?[/quote]

Granted, perhaps my statement wasnt clear. My intention was to suggest that i found the matches with Razor, Angle, Jericho, Taker and Flair more entertaining than Bret's matches. Personally i'd only rate the matches with Razor and Taker as 5 star. At the end of the day, Shawn Michaels had two 5 star matches 15 years apart from eachother, that takes some doing.

No brick wall headbanging on my part, but thanks.

Mr H wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

Mr H wrote:The Iron Man Match at Mania 12 was no way 5 star in my opinion.

5 star matches would surely have to go to Shawn Michaels. Razor Ramon, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, The Undertaker and Ric Flair all at Wrestlemania are all far more entertaining in ring matches than any of Bret Harts.

I didnt say Flair at Mania was 5 star did i, i just said i found it more entertaining than any of Bret Harts matches. The story and the emotion of it had me hooked. Dont get me wrong Bret Hart is technically sound and no doubt one of the best ever, but personally i found alot of his matches too methodical and i quickly got bored of his moveset.

So what did you say???

And you want to bang your head against the wall or shall I do it for you?

Granted, perhaps my statement wasnt clear. My intention was to suggest that i found the matches with Razor, Angle, Jericho, Taker and Flair more entertaining than Bret's matches. Personally i'd only rate the matches with Razor and Taker as 5 star. At the end of the day, Shawn Michaels had two 5 star matches 15 years apart from eachother, that takes some doing.

No brick wall headbanging on my part, but thanks.[/quote]

The thing is this is objective. The OP was trying to get posters to cast aside personal preference. Bret Hart made Steve Austin, HBK and Owen Hart. The matches they were involved with Hart very much made their careers. Hart has had 5 star matches, more so than HBK. The tribute match to Owen against Benoit. Bret Hart put over some top talent and also some very lousey talent too. Hart made Nash look good in matches. I am not a massive Hart fan, but his ringwork by far is much cleaner than anyone I have seen.

Yes granted that HBK had some memorable matches, but given a lot of his great matches came towards the end of his career and against established talent. Imagine a prime Hart against Angle, Lesnar or Jericho. Would be a massive draw and the makings of a great match.

''Hart has had 5 star matches, more so than HBK''

Says who? You do. Therefore that is personal preference. Whereas i think HBK has had more 5 star matches, so thats my personal preference. Its IMPOSSIBLE to avoid.

''Given a lot of his great matches came towards the end of his career and against established talent''

Yes alot of his great matches came towards the end of his career, but alot of his great matches also came at the beginning. Razor Ramon at Wrestlemania 10, Undertaker at Badd Blood, Marty Jannetty on Raw, Steve Austin, and he also got a good match out of Diesel. There are plenty.

He also got decent matches out of Cena at Mania, and managed to get a great match out of Flair at Mania 24. Dont forget the match with Shelton Benjamin, who whilst was a great athelete he wasnt overly established.

I have no doubt that if Bret Hart wrestled Angle, Lesnar and Jericho in his prime they would be great matches, but we are dealing with facts here and the fact is he DIDNT wrestle them. Shawn Michaels whole career was his prime, he got 5 star matches at the beginning and 5 star matches at the end, which is the reason id say his career was greater than Bret Harts.

Mr H wrote:''Hart has had 5 star matches, more so than HBK''

Says who? You do. Therefore that is personal preference. Whereas i think HBK has had more 5 star matches, so thats my personal preference. Its IMPOSSIBLE to avoid.

''Given a lot of his great matches came towards the end of his career and against established talent''

Yes alot of his great matches came towards the end of his career, but alot of his great matches also came at the beginning. Razor Ramon at Wrestlemania 10, Undertaker at Badd Blood, Marty Jannetty on Raw, Steve Austin, and he also got a good match out of Diesel. There are plenty.

He also got decent matches out of Cena at Mania, and managed to get a great match out of Flair at Mania 24. Dont forget the match with Shelton Benjamin, who whilst was a great athelete he wasnt overly established.

I have no doubt that if Bret Hart wrestled Angle, Lesnar and Jericho in his prime they would be great matches, but we are dealing with facts here and the fact is he DIDNT wrestle them. Shawn Michaels whole career was his prime, he got 5 star matches at the beginning and 5 star matches at the end, which is the reason id say his career was greater than Bret Harts.

Given that Dave Meltzer has rated 2 matches by Bret Hart as 5 star and HBK doesn't put either above the other.

I disagree that HBK's career was his prime because from 2006-2008 he didn't have any memorable matches in the period.

If Bret Hart wasn't stricken by injury, I am sure his career would've matched and maybe eclipsed Michaels.

''Given that Dave Meltzer has rated 2 matches by Bret Hart as 5 star and HBK doesn't put either above the other.''

Sorry i dont quite understand that statement, could you explain please?

"Macho Man" Randy Savage
HBK
Kurt Angle
SCSA
Rock

Brady12 wrote:

tigerrobins wrote:I disagree Brady, The 3 you mentioned need the matches to be able to pull. If the Rock for example just walked most of his matches, would he still have had the same pull? Though i suppose the promo comes into the equation, his matches were what put him up where he was.
And isn't this part of the problem with Cena, in that he has the other aspects but very rarely the matches.

If you could only pick one factor is what I meant... I'd pick ability to draw, surely that's what it's all about? Hogan Andre for example was an awful match but is probably the greatest single spectacle in wrestling history

i see what you are saying, It's just that in my opinion the matches are what gets them there drawing ability. So i would say that both are as important as each other. Cena can draw but very rarely has high standard matches. HHH and Taker can draw, but because both have a high standard of match, people will want to watch there matches more. Well i do anyway, because i'm gaurented a good match, so increasing there drawing power.

The biggest star the WWE has ever produced is no doubt Hulk Hogan. Everyone knows who he is, he's the biggest household name ever to come out of professional wrestling. Hulk Hogan is more than just a wrestler, he's a celebrity known around the world. He is without doubt the greatest draw of all time.

if he's not I don't think to many would finish above him. I'm not sure he'd get 10/10 for any catagory but I'd say he'd not get lower than 8/10 which when added up would give him a very hard to beat total

Its gotta be Zach Gowen.

Mr H wrote:The biggest star the WWE has ever produced is no doubt Hulk Hogan. Everyone knows who he is, he's the biggest household name ever to come out of professional wrestling. Hulk Hogan is more than just a wrestler, he's a celebrity known around the world. He is without doubt the greatest draw of all time.

I think the only guy who remotely matches up to that is The Rock

legendkillar wrote:

Mr H wrote:''Hart has had 5 star matches, more so than HBK''

Says who? You do. Therefore that is personal preference. Whereas i think HBK has had more 5 star matches, so thats my personal preference. Its IMPOSSIBLE to avoid.

''Given a lot of his great matches came towards the end of his career and against established talent''

Yes alot of his great matches came towards the end of his career, but alot of his great matches also came at the beginning. Razor Ramon at Wrestlemania 10, Undertaker at Badd Blood, Marty Jannetty on Raw, Steve Austin, and he also got a good match out of Diesel. There are plenty.

He also got decent matches out of Cena at Mania, and managed to get a great match out of Flair at Mania 24. Dont forget the match with Shelton Benjamin, who whilst was a great athelete he wasnt overly established.

I have no doubt that if Bret Hart wrestled Angle, Lesnar and Jericho in his prime they would be great matches, but we are dealing with facts here and the fact is he DIDNT wrestle them. Shawn Michaels whole career was his prime, he got 5 star matches at the beginning and 5 star matches at the end, which is the reason id say his career was greater than Bret Harts.

Given that Dave Meltzer has rated 2 matches by Bret Hart as 5 star and HBK doesn't put either above the other.

I disagree that HBK's career was his prime because from 2006-2008 he didn't have any memorable matches in the period.

If Bret Hart wasn't stricken by injury, I am sure his career would've matched and maybe eclipsed Michaels.

I totally disagree with you in regards to Shawn Michaels between 06-08, while I wouldn't say it was his prime its so wrong to claim he had no memorable matches, in 06 he along with HHH had a good feud with Rated RKO, he had a top WM main event match with Cens in 07 and the broadway they had a week later on RAW, what about the HBK/Cena vs Batist/Undertaker match, how about the WWE title match vs Orton at 07 Survivor Series, Jeff Hardy, Ric Flair, Batista and feud of the year with Jericho, all in 08

As for Bret, he was hardly injury prone, he was always fit, by the time Goldberg kicked him in the head he was 42, Bret had planned to retire around that age anyway, of course, whose to say he wouldn't have carried on but with the way WCW was heading and his annimosity towards Vince I'd say that his best days where already well and truly behind him

Edit: Just realised I posted this in the wrong forum because im a goof.

the-gaffer wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

Mr H wrote:''Hart has had 5 star matches, more so than HBK''

Says who? You do. Therefore that is personal preference. Whereas i think HBK has had more 5 star matches, so thats my personal preference. Its IMPOSSIBLE to avoid.

''Given a lot of his great matches came towards the end of his career and against established talent''

Yes alot of his great matches came towards the end of his career, but alot of his great matches also came at the beginning. Razor Ramon at Wrestlemania 10, Undertaker at Badd Blood, Marty Jannetty on Raw, Steve Austin, and he also got a good match out of Diesel. There are plenty.

He also got decent matches out of Cena at Mania, and managed to get a great match out of Flair at Mania 24. Dont forget the match with Shelton Benjamin, who whilst was a great athelete he wasnt overly established.

I have no doubt that if Bret Hart wrestled Angle, Lesnar and Jericho in his prime they would be great matches, but we are dealing with facts here and the fact is he DIDNT wrestle them. Shawn Michaels whole career was his prime, he got 5 star matches at the beginning and 5 star matches at the end, which is the reason id say his career was greater than Bret Harts.

Given that Dave Meltzer has rated 2 matches by Bret Hart as 5 star and HBK doesn't put either above the other.

I disagree that HBK's career was his prime because from 2006-2008 he didn't have any memorable matches in the period.

If Bret Hart wasn't stricken by injury, I am sure his career would've matched and maybe eclipsed Michaels.

I totally disagree with you in regards to Shawn Michaels between 06-08, while I wouldn't say it was his prime its so wrong to claim he had no memorable matches, in 06 he along with HHH had a good feud with Rated RKO, he had a top WM main event match with Cens in 07 and the broadway they had a week later on RAW, what about the HBK/Cena vs Batist/Undertaker match, how about the WWE title match vs Orton at 07 Survivor Series, Jeff Hardy, Ric Flair, Batista and feud of the year with Jericho, all in 08

Again you are confusing feud with matches.

Sorry but his match Cena at 07 wasn't memorable in the slightest.

His match with Flair was memorable, granted.

The feud of 2008 was Edge and Taker!

I'm not confusing feuds with matches at all, his matches with Chris Jericho where brilliant, particularly the ladder match, his match on RAW with Jeff Hardy around Rumble time that year was awesome too and he was the first main eventer Hardy beat that didn't look like a fluke, Michaels also gave Dave Batista his best match in years against a smaller guy, I personally thought his 2 matches with Cena where good, his SS07 match with Orton was simply awesome, a submission masterclass

I'll give you Taker/Edge, I preferred HBK/Y2J but most would say Taker Edge.

When Shawn came back late 07 to cover for Cena getting injured he didn't have a bad feud and those feud's lead to great matches

I won't take anything away from HBK. I rate personally the greatest there has ever been given his career with his achievements and the vast array of matches he put on. That is why I rated him the best for ring skills because of rightly what you pointed out with submission matches, highflying matches, on the mat matches.

For me though Bret Hart seemed to be in the right place at the right time when Michaels broke out into his own and also with how he put Owen over and also the launched Austin.

The one match of Michaels that gets overlooked was against Vader at Summerslam 1996. I felt for sure Vader was a shoe in for the title and Michaels performed out of his skin.

I couldn't disagree with you on Bret, he was awesome, for me though for guy who had the lot was Randy Savage, he had every thing