The Official Sexton V O'Gara - NO DISCUSSION - thread (READ INSTRUCTIONS!)

by Nos na Gaoithe Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:43 pm

Alright let's try an experimental NO discussion thread. censored

There's no doubt that Sexton's performance against Australia is the one big puzzling head-wrecker for all Irish fans. On the one hand Ireland appear to be more solid, fluid and aggressive with him dictating the plays. But then again, is that all for nought if you're in a game that's all about scoring penalties and he's missing more than 50%?

Now we all know that this topic is far too controversial and circular and tribal to be debated and discussed rationally by most Irish fans. So here goes: Let's make this is a special no discussion, non-tribal, non-dialogical thread!! Do not snipe at others opinions or make claims relating back to the poster's previous tribal bias. Please just use the following format:

(1) Start by stating in brackets at the beginning of your post if you support Leinster or Munster or Other
(2a) State who you think our first choice No 10/Playmaker should be for the rest of the tournament.
(2b) State who you think should start for our match against Italy.
(3) State your reasons as rationally and succinctly as possible regarding Ireland's needs and tactics.

Again. Just for this thread, please do not snipe at others expressed preferences. (And I hope the moderators will be extra strict in that sense.) I really would just like to see what the broad balance of opinion is from each individual poster beyond the circular tribal bickering. Hug

I'll start us off below.

by Nos na Gaoithe Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:44 pm

1) Leinster (through and through)

2a) Sexton (for the tournament)

2b) Sexton (for Italy - with ROG playing full 2nd half)

3) I think Sexton has to be our first choice for the tournament. Ireland play a better all-round game with him in charge. And not just in a small way. From our defence to our attack everything looks more solid and “on the front foot” with Sexton at 10. Like everyone else I’m frustrated at his goal-kicking. All Leinster fans know what he can do. And that means it’s psychological. Which is even more disappointing. But then again other top kickers are missing too. And ROG’s kicks were hardly challenging when he took them against the Oz.

For Italy, I originally wanted to see ROG to start. But now, after the Oz match, I’d like to see Sexton start for two main reasons: First, to settle his kicking nerves as much as possible by reassuring his position as first No 10. And second, to try and build our attacking game in the first half and then have ROG close out the game in the 2nd. This for me is a world-class strategy and we should develop it as best we can. I do want to see ROG get a full half to bring him up to pace however.

by eirebilly Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:54 pm

Munster man here. I thought that Sexton did well today (kicking aside). A very talented player and he should start all matches for Ireland from now.

I do love the ROG Sexton partnership though

by **rodders** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:01 pm

1) Ulster
2a) Sexton
2b) Sexton
3) I think Sexton played well today and dictated the pace of the game. His place kicking is a worry and if he can't improve then he'll have to be dropped for ROG but I think it would be a bad move to change our 10 mid tournament without a very good reason.

I think that the impact sub role is really bringing out the best in ROG too. He's able to analyse the game from the bench and come on and really make an impact.

We've just pulled off maybe the greatest victory in the history of Irish rugby so what we need is to stick with what we are doing and hope Sexton finds his kicking boots because the rest of his game is coming together.

by **Notch** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:17 pm

1) Ulster
2a) O'Gara
2b) O'Gara
3) I feel he's the more consistent player under pressure, and I feel our game is suited to territory and pressure more than running the ball. We are still struggling to create. Let's play some tournament rugby. Hit the corners and hit the rucks even harder!

by aucklandlaurie Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:24 pm

from reading the the Irish postings over the last couple of months I have got the feeling that there are long running issues in the Sexton/o'gara debate, and as a kiwi i am ignorant to 99 % of it.
Being at the game last night I do not know what you guys saw on TV, but I wouldn't have liked to have Sexton in some of those discussions he had with Brien O'Driscoll during breaks in play.

by eirebilly Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:31 pm

I guess you are disappointed aucklandlaurie, didnt you go to see Ireland get given 'a long awaited lesson in rugby'?

by **rodders** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:34 pm

Aukland sorry I am not sure I understand what you are saying?

Yes there are long running issues between the fans. A lot of it because ROG is a Munster legend and Sexton is the Leinster golden boy.

Notch don't forget that O'Gara's kicking out of hand was not great today and put us under pressure at times. Both played well today but didn't have perfect games. No way would I drop Sexton after today though. If he continues to struggle with his place kicking then I would make the change but not now.

by Nos na Gaoithe Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:39 pm

For god's sake lads... five posts in and people are

(a) already dragging up disputes from opinions expressed in earlier threads
(b) needlessly restating their opinions in order to contradict others personal OPINIONS which is what this thread was about! Not the usual fruitless bickering.

Take it to another thread. There's so many to choose from!

by aucklandlaurie Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:39 pm

Eirebilly
Yes I was disappointed that I didn't see the type of rugby which I will any day applaud that the Aussies play.
The complete opposite happened,and I congratulate the game and victory that the Irish played and achieved, it was a great occasion and I am indebted to the Irish for putting on such stunning game and big night..
there's definitely plenty of legs left in this world Cup.

by Gatts Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:42 pm

Other
O Gara
O Gara

Aside form the provincial rivalry it was providence that brought ROG, a shame for GD. Didn't Sexton miss 3? In such a tight game, and they will just get tighter, you need to be kicking your goals. ROG slotted 6 points in half an hour putting Ireland out of touch, made the Aussies play catch up which played into irish hands. Clearly ROG is no replacement for sexton but with 1000 point splus he is exactly what was needed. Steadied the ship, hit his goals.

by Taylorman Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:43 pm

Good way to post. Not being Irish I havnt done the a, b, c thing but I like the idea- might help with getting some answers in some of our posts...

For me Sexton's kicking style lacks technique and consistency based purely on last night. His run up is uncoordinated and jerky- something that under pressure will falter. Don't know what he's like at home but O'Gara to me looked great when he came on.

Clearly a superior exponent with the boot- the 2 or 3 up and under's were the best of the tournament I have seen next to those of Steyn so far- perfectly timed and weighted -so I don't understand the comment above about his kicking out of hand- perhaps a couple of missed touch finders was it?

I'm assuming Sexton is there for his running abilities

by **rodders** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:46 pm

Sorry Nos na Gaoithe I didn't read the instructions!

Taylorman the up and under directly into touch is the main example I am thinking of but a couple of touch finders didn't quite have the range either.

by aucklandlaurie Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:48 pm

Rodders
There were a couple of instances,when O'Driscoll took Sexton aside and absolutely gave it to him, one incident was in the in goal area whilst Australia were taking a penalty,and it was only about 20 metres in front of me,I dont know what he was saying but it definitely didn't look complimentary.
I doubt very much whether it was just about missing a couple of penalties,as there seemed to be much bigger points being made.The people i was with were somewhat surprised after witnessing it that it took so long befora the interchange appeared.
I just didnt know if these incidents were covered by tv.

by eirebilly Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:50 pm

aucklandlaurie, Ireland played very well today and nullified that Aussie attack. Not a try fest but good rugby. Nice responce though Very Happy

For me, Sexton is still learning the trade but he is the starter and is standing tall.

by Feagh McHugh Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:51 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote: Rodders
There were a couple of instances,when O'Driscoll took Sexton aside and absolutely gave it to him, one incident was in the in goal area whilst Australia were taking a penalty,and it was only about 20 metres in front of me,I dont know what he was saying but it definitely didn't look complimentary.
I doubt very much whether it was just about missing a couple of penalties,as there seemed to be much bigger points being made.The people i was with were somewhat surprised after witnessing it that it took so long befora the interchange appeared.
I just didnt know if these incidents were covered by tv.

Saw that on Tv (or one of them anyway) it seemed like a bit of a gee up to me.

Think you are mistaken, that is not Bods style.

by **rodders** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:53 pm

Thanks auklandlaurie. I can't comment on that because I didn't see it. I still think Sexton had a good game, place kicking aside. Irish people are gumpy feckers so I wouldn't read too much into O'Driscoll eating the head off Sexton Wink

.

by **Notch** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:54 pm

It very much is, remember him bitching out Earls? And Stringer last World Cup?

He will let his teammates know if they are not up to his very high standards. That's why I believe O'Connell is the better Captain in some ways.

by aucklandlaurie Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:55 pm

Eirebilly
Fair plays M8, I know we have had our differences in the past (cant remember what on) but I know you Irish guys are very proud of youre team this morning,and deservedly so.
I bet you guys would have loved to have been in Auckalnd last night it went right off. I didnt know so many Maoris, samoans,Tongans etc were of Irish extraction.

by Feagh McHugh Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:57 pm

Good idea for a thread, but.............

Darcy looked like he was under pressure with his hamstring today so I thought people might be debating a Rog at 10 and Sexton at 12 scenario v Russia to see will this work going forward.

Did any see the interview on RTE where Rog pretty much said this tournament will be his last in the green????

Pretty amazed to hear it, and would remind posters what a legend this man has been for Ireland before this thread cranks up (which it will).

A) Leinster

B) One game at a time

C) lets try Rog and Sexton V Russia

by **rodders** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:59 pm

Jeebus christ! We pull off maybe the greatest win in Irish rugby history and not only do people want to drop our fly half, we're now on about changing our captain!

by Feagh McHugh Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:00 am

Notch wrote:It very much is, remember him bitching out Earls? And Stringer last World Cup?

He will let his teammates know if they are not up to his very high standards. That's why I believe O'Connell is the better Captain in some ways.

That I do remember and it was the first time I ever saw him doing so - it was the exception and not the rule.
Care to name another occasion Notch???

by **Notch** Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:02 am

Christ, you can;t make one innocent comment without people jumping on your back around here! How many times is significant? laughing

I didn't say I want to change our Captain or that BOD is a bad Captain. I said I think O'Connell is the better Captain!

by Nos na Gaoithe Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:05 am

Jaysus... yiz are all useless!! Laugh

Tis like herdin cats! The "no discussion" thread has somehow morphed into the "discuss whatever crazy thoughts you've been holding back on over the last few years" thread!

by Feagh McHugh Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:09 am

[quote="Notch"]It very much is, remember him bitching out Earls? And Stringer last World Cup?

He will let his teammates know if they are not up to his very high standards. That's why I believe O'Connell is the better Captain in some ways.[/quote]

You tell me?
Im not jumping down your throat by the way.

by **rodders** Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:10 am

You're a hard man to please Notch! Very Happy

I'm all for analysing performance and being critcical but I think sometimes us Irish have a tendency to create problems were there aren't any. There are always areas to improve but remember were we have come from.

You don't beat the Tri-nations champions without doing more right than wrong. I think we need a bit of continuity now, bar the Russia game were we should give some of the squad guys a run.

The two best Irish performances by a mile in the past 18 months have come with Reddan and Sexton at half back so I can't understand why some people are so keen to break up a winning formula.

by Taylorman Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:10 am

Yeah I saw that Laurie. BOD was certainly saying something other than 'gidday mate'.

I was rapt for the Irish too. A lot has been said on these boards over the ensuing weeks and on the night Ireland came through in the end. Would have loved to have been in Auckland last night.

O'Connel was inspirational. In the same way Horwill was against the AB's O'Connell was last night. Every little positive that came out of the Irish forwards effort he kept patting them on the back, driving them on. I think he spent half his time doing that alone! Its not something us Kiwi's do a lot and sometimes it looks like chest pumping but his efforts were genuine. You could see his very heart and soul in it through the entire match. One of the best performances I've seen so far.

Oz have showed yet again their inconsistency- high one week low the next. Injuries and the Irish back row exposed their lack of depth terribly and they'll be walking on eggshells to avoid getting any more.

Cooper confirmed Eden Parks continuing to be a jinxed ground for him so I don't fancy their chances should they play a big one there again. Still early days.

by **Notch** Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:12 am

I don't think we should start with them both against Russia at all. Too much risk of injury. Start with Wallace or McFadden. They won't let us down.

Neither of them have any gametime so massive points to prove and it will give us more options if D'Arcy is out. I'd say we should make a few changes anyway. Forwards must be wrecked. Got to trust the squad here to get it done. Go into the last game fresh.

by **Notch** Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:14 am

Notch wrote:]It very much is, remember him bitching out Earls? And Stringer last World Cup?

He will let his teammates know if they are not up to his very high standards. That's why I believe O'Connell is the better Captain in some ways.

Feagh McHugh wrote:You tell me?
Im not jumping down your throat by the way.

Hey, all I'm pointing out is it's not a one-off. I've seen it happen before. Rarely on TV- TV puts replays on while players are sorting things out in breaks of play.

by Taylorman Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:14 am

Apologies Nos... I'm guilty of that...applaud the formula then break the rules... Doh

by Nos na Gaoithe Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:16 am

Taylorman wrote:Apologies Nos... I'm guilty of that...applaud the formula then break the rules...

Ah well... t'was a bit crazy to try and curb the blarney on a night like this I spose!!

guinness

by **rodders** Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:18 am

Taylorman O'Connell is massively respected in Irish rugby, right up there with BOD. Where he leads others follow and everything about that guy is understated and genuine.

Notch it's great we have an 8 day break to get our heads together for a tough game against Russia. I agree we need to give the tight 5 a rest to be fresh for Italy and get Wallace, McFadden etc in there.

I'd be tempted to start with Sexton to see if he can sort his place kicking out in a lower pressure game.

by Feagh McHugh Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:20 am

Fair enough Notch I do remember both incidents but Bod is a great captain (in a team full of many good leaders).

I would like to see Wallace and McFadden get game time too.... hmmm

by debaters1 Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:05 am

(1) Munster.
(2a) Sexton* I've more to say here.
(2b) Sexton.
(3) This will answer 2. Sexton needs the game time against Russia and we kick everything as he needs game-time pressure to be kicking.

However, the 10-12 ROG-Sexton axis will feature again in the tournament and the deeper we go the more important it will become. And it will start against NZ in the Final. Now, Nonu, Read, Thorn, insert Kiwi player here, will run down his throat at every opportunity, but I give us a chance. Any given Sunday though.....

by Cari Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:40 am

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

(1) Start by stating in brackets at the beginning of your post if you support Leinster or Munster or Other
(2a) State who you think our first choice No 10/Playmaker should be for the rest of the tournament.
(2b) State who you think should start for our match against Italy.
(3) State your reasons as rationally and succinctly as possible regarding Ireland's needs and tactics.

Ospreys/Wales/Tommy Bowe Wink

Sexton.
Sexton.
If it aint broke...things seem to be working the way that they are for Ireland.

by wales606 Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:01 am

(1) Other (Blues Sad

)
(2a) Sexton
(2b) Sexotn
(3) You just beat Australia with Sexton at 10, confidence will be high and he plays better with confidence.

by dubh_linn Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:02 am

1: leinster
2a: sexton
2b: sexton
3: i would like to see rog start v russia and sexton come on for a run out last twenty mins and to practice his goal kicking ina match environment with the match won already...then reverse this for yhe italy game with instruvtions to play prrcentages for forsy twenty then gtadually open it up...rog coming on for last twenty to close out match...
Also v russia give boss,wallace..jennings mc fadden trimble ryan etc a run out with a strong bench featuring sexton sob ferris bod etc....we shoud be good enough to win this with our second team and all players need game time especialy if we get injuries or suspensions later on in tournament.

by disneychilly Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:57 am

I would have picked Sexton but for one thing: the ball. With everyone having problems I think O'Gara has an advantage over the others. The ball has a smaller sweet spot and deviates more than previous balls, and O'Gara negates this by placing the ball at an angle leaning to the right. This eliminates any draw and causes the ball to go straight. He's pretty much the only kicker of the Tier 1 teams that does this and he could be the kicker of the tournament as a result, and an extremely important player as the tournament goes on.

by BlueMuff Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:00 pm

1 Munster
2 ROG
3 ROG

Sexton ok yesterday but I have said it for years now his kicking is not up to International standard. YOU SIMPLY CANNOT MISS KICKS LIKE YESTERDAY AT THIS LEVEL. It could have cost us the match.

ROG brings much more confidence to the whole team

by Cari Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:23 pm

Some of you might find this interesting:
https://www.606v2.com/t14165-rog-asked-to-delay-retirement-plans#490204

by Thomond Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:37 pm

Well,the Munster people are sticking by ROG and the Leinster folks are sticking by Sexton,would like to see a 10-12 combo of the two for 20 minutes agaisnt Russia. Sexton's kicking has been poor and he has failed to get our backs moving. ROG hasn't done this well either but at least he kicks to the corners more often.
1.Munster
2.Sexton
3.ROG

by Nos na Gaoithe Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:53 pm

Thomond wrote:Well,the Munster people are sticking by ROG and the Leinster folks are sticking by Sexton,would like to see a 10-12 combo of the two for 20 minutes agaisnt Russia. Sexton's kicking has been poor and he has failed to get our backs moving. ROG hasn't done this well either but at least he kicks to the corners more often.
1.Munster
2.Sexton
3.ROG

Not at all Thom... that's actually what's been interesting so far. Of the 4 expressly identified Munster supporters: 3 (Eirebilly, Debaters and Yourself) have backed Sexton for tactical reasons over tribal. That's been the point of this thread... to remove multiple posts by the same posters expressing the same opinion over and over. And instead to simply see what each person thinks and why.

O'Gara has still received a good amount of support. But, in this thread at least, that support has come from Ulster and other outside sources.

by KiaRose Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:13 pm

1 Munster
2a Sexton
2b ROG
3 - Most of it has been said; DK has been saying for some time now that there are two fly-halves in the squad and the implication is that NEITHER "owns" the jersey. However, great servant and all as ROG has been, we have to go with Sexton as the main 10.

I find it interesting that ROG seems to be revelling in the role of impact sub. Someone posted earlier that this gives him a chance to analyse the play so that he knows how to make that impact when he comes on - I probably agree with that. But heck, he is some impact sub.

Re the sweet spot on the ball - thanks Disney for that bit of insight. I thought the frailty of so many kickers had to be down to the sweet spot, so thanks for that bit of analysis. I will go back and watch the match again looking for that. But if ROG has figured that out, why not Sexton? Also this might exp[lain why some of ROG's kicking from hand has been a bit awry, or well at least not as good as we have come to expect at Thomond or even the Aviva.

I liked the ROG / Sextron 10/12 partnership. Wonder if for this tournament that will happen more often?

by debaters1 Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:27 pm

Kiarose, the deeper we go in this tournament, the more often we will see the ROG-Sexton 10-12 axis. And it will start against the All Blacks in the Final. You heard it here first (or second, whatever) Wink

Seriosuly, though we will see it again.

by Feckless Rogue Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:09 pm

(1) Leinster fan.

(2a) Sexton, if he fixes his goal kicking.

(2b) Sexton. He needs games to fix his goal kicking.

(3) Ireland's two stand out performances this year have been with Reddan and Sexton at 9 and 10. The pack just has to keep doing what its doing. Now the backs have to up their game. The attacking play in the match against England in the 6 Nations has to be matched and improved on. Sexton is the best man to do this. O'Gara is also a brilliant impact sub. It's far better to bring him on for Sexton in the second half than to do it the other way around.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:26 pm

Fantastic article
I agree with everything you say in your post so just re-iterating it here. Great article again buddy, great idea.

1) Leinster (through and through)

2a) Sexton (for the tournament)

2b) Sexton (for Italy - with ROG playing full 2nd half)

3) I think Sexton has to be our first choice for the tournament. Ireland play a better all-round game with him in charge. And not just in a small way. From our defence to our attack everything looks more solid and “on the front foot” with Sexton at 10. Like everyone else I’m frustrated at his goal-kicking. All Leinster fans know what he can do. And that means it’s psychological. Which is even more disappointing. But then again other top kickers are missing too. And ROG’s kicks were hardly challenging when he took them against the Oz.

For Italy, I originally wanted to see ROG to start. But now, after the Oz match, I’d like to see Sexton start for two main reasons: First, to settle his kicking nerves as much as possible by reassuring his position as first No 10. And second, to try and build our attacking game in the first half and then have ROG close out the game in the 2nd. This for me is a world-class strategy and we should develop it as best we can. I do want to see ROG get a full half to bring him up to pace however.

I think ROG should play 10 vs Russia wit Wallace or McFadden at 12. Sexton should come on and play with them for 20/30 mins too.