England have best junior programme in world rugby

First topic message reminder :

So says John Fletcher on the back of the u18's highly impressive performances in Australia:

England player development

Interesting lines include:

I believe come 2015 we’ll see a lot of players come up through the Under 18s, they’ll definitely add something. There is no doubt that this crop of youngsters are better than the current England squad were at the same age – and so they should be.

Perhaps more surprisingly

And the skills of Fletcher’s current charges were on display for all to see. “Our victories are proof that we are better than the southern hemisphere teams of this age when it comes to moving the ball around and a lot of our tries have come because of that.”

It's not just the backs though, with the forwards being both physically dominant and having excellent basic skills. Players like Dominic Barrow (lock) and David Sisi (number 8) have every chance of progressing to full international honours if they stay fit and focussed.

There was talk of England's recent relative success at age grade rugby falling off, but I think that is more a problem resulting from having to sift so many players from the 14 academies. England also look for players who've been missed by the academies. Such is the strength in depth that the under 18's have very little to do with the u16's of two years ago.

Of course we could just be seeing hubris from the RFU, but I think I can see parallels in cricket. There 10 years of decent structures and, frankly, throwing money at the problem has left England number 1 in the world, and with very impressive strength in depth which is likely to keep us there. The parallel isn't perfect, for instance I don't think the senior rugby coaches can match their cricket equivalents, but that's relatively easily corrected if necessary.

England still have a long way to go but, with probably the best ever England u20s side this year and with the under 18s who may finally break NZ's monopoly at the JWC in two year's time, the 2015 WC is likely to be more enjoyable for England fans than the 2011 version.

DaveM wrote:
I'm pretty sure you could rename England u18s as England schoolboys as, without checking, I believe they are all still at school. It was an excellent tour. I think they did SA last summer, so maybe they'll be off the NZ next year. It would certainly be an excellent experience for them.

Why don't England, Scotland and Wales do the same.? To be honest I suspect it is cost, and this is where the RFU's deeper pockets come in handy.

Not what I meant.

England have their club academies whilst the SH go through school systems at every level as far as I know with U18 or U19 being the last one before moving on to lets say, the Canterbury Academy.

biltongbek wrote:currently it is difficult for SA age groups to be at their best. The reasoning is simple really.

There is a mandated quota system at Craven week which provides that a specific number 9 players ina squad must be non whites. Now currently this has a two edged sword.

The coaches have no choice but to select 9 players of colour, and there for many white kids do not get the opportunity, but the other side of the coin is the mental attitiude of these coaches having to deal with this when it comes to development and fast tracking of these players.

A large proportion of these coloured players get lost after they leave school because the professional franchises won't pay a contractual salary to these players if in their opinion they aren't up to standard.

so you have a situation where the enforced quota system has a negative effect on the development of these players, because they are told they must do it.

If they were to remove this system and just allow the coaches to select the best players, regardless of colour of skin, you might find that their attitude towards the whole enforced situation will change, and they will automatically pick the best players.

Only if they get to that point, will we truly be able to measure ourselves without compromise.

Its mental, and quite racist- if I may say that (don't want a repeat of the Mujati thread). There's young lads out there potentially missing out due to the colour of their skin. What happened to learning from history? South African rugby needs to break down barriers but not in such an artificial way. Grow the game amongst ALL communities and the results will follow- just much slower than the politicos would want. Real change happens over generations. Politics is a world where you are judged by instant results.

Hence this unfair and inegalitarian policy. All it does, is ensure race continues to be a divisive issue in SA rugby.

nottins_jones wrote:
Not what I meant.

England have their club academies whilst the SH go through school systems at every level as far as I know with U18 or U19 being the last one before moving on to lets say, the Canterbury Academy.

The under 18s will spend a certain number of hours per week with their club, but are nothing like full time. The systems are different, but it was still the best of Aus versus the best of England.

GavinDragon wrote:yep 92-0 i believe

Blimey, that is a humiliating defeat.

I'm pretty sure you could rename England u18s as England schoolboys as, without checking, I believe they are all still at school

Not quite, I think most of them will just have finished school, certainly if this is the same squad posted the other day that featured lots of Exeter players as I've played against several of them at school level.

I think NZ at all levels Schoolboys up are far better,winning tourneys at
U17,U19,U20,U21 levels.NZRFU has one of the best structures Schoolboys up to full international.

They are all still at school:

15 Jack Nowell (Truro College & Exeter Chiefs)
14 Marcus Webber (Manchester Grammar & Leeds Carnegie)
13 Sam Jones (Ivybridge College & Exeter Chiefs)
12 Sam Hill (Ivybridge College & Exeter Chiefs)
11 Jack Arnott (Ivybridge College & Exeter Chiefs)
10 Henry Slade (Plymouth College & Exeter Chiefs)
9 James Lightfoot-Brown (St Paul’s Catholic College & London Irish)
1 Danny Herriott (Moulton College & Northampton Saints)
2 Scott Spurling (Harrow School & Saracens)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Epsom College & Harlequins)
4 Tom Price (Wyggeston & Queen Elizabeth 1st & Leicester Tigers)
5 Dominic Barrow (Prince Henry’s Grammar & Leeds Carnegie) (captain)
6 Joe Buckle (Bryanston & Bath Rugby)
7 Matt Hankin (Haileybury College & Saracens)
8 David Sisi (St Paul’s Catholic College & London Irish)

Replacements (all used)
16 Max Crumpton (Oaklands College & Saracens) for 2 (53mins)
17 Tom Jubb (Oaklands College & Saracens) for 6 (56)
18 George Sandford (St Paul’s Catholic College & London Irish) for 4 (35)
19 Tom Stephenson (Moulton College & Northampton Saints) for 13 (68)
20 Alex Day (St Joseph’s College & Northampton Saints) for 9 (40)
21 Oliver Rosillo (Harrogate Grammar & Leeds Carnegie) for 11 (60)
22 Will Robinson (Twyford College & London Wasps) for 10 (60)
23 Zach Kibirge (Yarm School & Newcastle Falcons) for 14 (68)

I think all acadamy players are forced to college anyway. Due to the fact its a short career they don't allow them to end up crippled at 35 with no qualifications. Not certain but pretty sure it's part of the acadamy requirements.

Also is it not a legal require to have some form of education up until 18 now?

Cumbrian wrote:They are all still at school:

They were when they were first selected, hence the inclusion of the school and club but as it is now September and the school year finishes in July they will have just left.

Thanks for putting the list up, will be interesting to see how some of those players develop in the future. Slade's the only one I can remeber seeing play, seemed a tidy player and a very agressive tackler for a 10.

This year's u20 squad:

Forwards

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)*
Nick Auterac (Saracens)
Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Nathan Morris (London Wasps)
Scott Spurling (Saracens)
Koree Britton (Gloucester Rugby)*
Sam Twomey (Harlequins)*
George Merrick (Harlequins)
Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
Dom Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
Ben Nutley (Northampton Saints)
Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)*
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)
Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Backs

Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)*
Alex Day (Northampton Saints)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)*
Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby)*
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (London Wasps)*
Jamie Elliott (Northampton Saints)*
Mark Jennings (Sale Sharks)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)*
Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
Will Addison (Sale Sharks)
Ben Ransom (Saracens)*
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Looks another strong group. I'm looking forward to seeing Sam Hill and Mark Jennings (both centres) and also seeing the impact Addison will have at age group level.

The * indicates players second year in the squad I assume?

Yes I think so, or at least already called up to the u20s if not fulltime in the squad.

Australia u18's have just beaten their NZ equivalents.

Link

This makes the England u18 results from the summer look even better. Hopefully there will be a couple of JWC wins in the next 3 years.

DaveM wrote:
England have lost 3 JWC finals to NZ. This year was the smallest the gap has been, and featured a decent number of 18 year-olds. I would imagine England will be targetting, and perhaps expecting, a JWC win over the next two years.

...and but for a couple of bad decisions and some other bad luck (such as NZ scoring a try with an overlap while our winger on that side was down injured) for England, we could have sneaked it.

Obviously NZ have the best system, but our age grade system is starting to look really good.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
From my point of view, the Irish one is exceptionally good considering we don't use foreign imports in our provinces anywhere near as much as other NH countries do.

Sorry, but I'm struggling to see how that is at all relevant.

HammerofThunor wrote:Also is it not a legal require to have some form of education up until 18 now?

No

England's going from strength to strength in junior rugby, so hats off to them. Victories of the ARU under 18 academy, and schoolboys sides are good achievements. NZ schools did recently lose to Australian schools.

I think they are better prepared in that they play as a team much more and have more international competition.

The success of their age group teams has to benefit england going forward.

A couple of points:

NZ schools and age groups sides are different (or were in my day). School sides are run through the schools, age groups sides are run through the NZRFU. The NZRFU sides tend to be stronger (IMO). I'm not sure of the Australian set up.

The tour was in August, not sure how that affects the Aussies, but I think it would affect NZ. That's because of the high school competition set up, which is designed to peak towards the end of the year (e.g. the top four tournement is in September), with selections and a game against Australia to follow. I know the Aussie team vs England was effectively thrown together against England, whist their was a selection camp, etc in the build up NZ.

I'm not sure how effectively a team would be selected earlier on the year (whilst selectors and coaches are aware of top many top players, we don't have the equivelent of the 6 nations). In terms of the Australians, their team vs NZ was quite different (only 2 backline players from the england match).

It is an England team that is better prepared. NZ/Australia and SA have no equivelent of the 6 nations age group competition. For instance the only time NZ age group sides get any real preperation is the under 20 side, which has a camp and plays a few games prior to the competition. This was the 10th or 11th game the England under 18's played together and the first the Aussies played. England beat Australia in the 1st half and were basically more polished, whilst the second half was pretty even. This may be a reflection of the Aussies adjusting to the pace of the game and each other (that's the opinion of the Aussie journalists anyway).


.

Not strictly related, but NZRU has just appointed Rob Penny coach of the under 20 side. He's a good coach and has recently coached the Canterbury provincial team to 4 national titles.

Thanks for putting the list up, will be interesting to see how some of those players develop in the future.

I don't know much about most of them but Tom Price is highly thought of at Tigers and was included in the first team squad for pre season which was pretty impressive as he was I think only 17 at the time. Sisi the LI 8 is supposed to be a beast though I haven't seen him play.

Do you think he'll do better than Calum Green? I thought he looked highly promising at the u20 WC two years ago, but he seems to have vanished.

I think Calum Green had/has physical draw backs. He wasn't tall enough at about 6ft 3in (I know what his profile says, but I think that was really generous) to be a lock and he was too slow to convert into a backrower. Tom Price at least, has the right physical frame 6ft 8in

Calum Green started brightly alongside Parling two years ago, particularly against Kennedy in the game vs LI, and seemed to be a success but his form dipped last year and he spent most of the year at Nottingham. Played well there by all accounts but has had on going knee issues. This has meant he has had a significant knee operation which has ruled him out until January at the earliest. The medical team have apparently equipped him and Newby with matching mobility scooters.

I don't think he's that small and his lineout work was alright. He just suffers from being a hot headed enforcer type. Bit to much of a bull in a china shop and against more experienced opposition was to easy to take advantage of. I'd expect to see him in a Tigers shirt again over the next couple of years but the jury is out at the minute.

HammerofThunor wrote:
Also is it not a legal require to have some form of education up until 18 now?

Watch that Essex show and youll find your answer

Nope, the government mentioned that as a possible change but I'm pretty sure it never went through. Teenagers can still drop out at 16 though I think the England age grade players are told they have to remain in education (plenty of private schools to sign them up on scholarships anyway).

New Zealand would seem to have the strongest age group rugby, though their provincial system has been around for many years, long before professional rugby.

Wales and Ireland seem to be doing really well with bringing through young players, they seem to have a conveyour belt of talent coming through.

England also seem to be leaning the RFU funding towards clubs who bring through young players so this may assist clubs who want to bring through players, the biggest problem is one dodgy season from any club and they could be relegated so taking risk with kids is not an option so only the very best players rise to the top.

You could also argue if England and possibly Ireland are so strong why are they poaching kids off Wales?

AlynDavies wrote:New Zealand would seem to have the strongest age group rugby, though their provincial system has been around for many years, long before professional rugby.

Wales and Ireland seem to be doing really well with bringing through young players, they seem to have a conveyour belt of talent coming through.

England also seem to be leaning the RFU funding towards clubs who bring through young players so this may assist clubs who want to bring through players, the biggest problem is one dodgy season from any club and they could be relegated so taking risk with kids is not an option so only the very best players rise to the top.

You could also argue if England and possibly Ireland are so strong why are they poaching kids off Wales?

Which kids have England poached off Wales???

Cumbrian wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:New Zealand would seem to have the strongest age group rugby, though their provincial system has been around for many years, long before professional rugby.

Wales and Ireland seem to be doing really well with bringing through young players, they seem to have a conveyour belt of talent coming through.

England also seem to be leaning the RFU funding towards clubs who bring through young players so this may assist clubs who want to bring through players, the biggest problem is one dodgy season from any club and they could be relegated so taking risk with kids is not an option so only the very best players rise to the top.

You could also argue if England and possibly Ireland are so strong why are they poaching kids off Wales?

Which kids have England poached off Wales???

Maybe he's still agitated about Dewi Morris

Cumbrian wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:New Zealand would seem to have the strongest age group rugby, though their provincial system has been around for many years, long before professional rugby.

Wales and Ireland seem to be doing really well with bringing through young players, they seem to have a conveyour belt of talent coming through.

England also seem to be leaning the RFU funding towards clubs who bring through young players so this may assist clubs who want to bring through players, the biggest problem is one dodgy season from any club and they could be relegated so taking risk with kids is not an option so only the very best players rise to the top.

You could also argue if England and possibly Ireland are so strong why are they poaching kids off Wales?

Which kids have England poached off Wales???

Think this may have been in reference to Hugo Ellis who went from Wales to England at various age levels.

Hugo Ellis who was born and raised in England and came through the RFU academy at Wasps?