Haye not interested in fighting Vitali

by D4thincarnation Sat 19 Feb 2011, 2:52 pm

David Haye has made it clear that he not interested in fighting Vitali and is to put all his efforts into fighting Wlad instead.

The problem with this is it seems as Wlad does not want to fight Haye and want Vitali to fight Haye instead.

Haye has said he wants Wlad, because Vitali has not made no videos of himself calling Haye out. Wlad is also hold two of the main belts, Wlad is also the younger brother still in his prime, while Vitali has seen better days and Wlad is also the no.1 ranked heavyweight in the world.

Haye made it clear at the start of negotiations that he only wanted to fight Wlad, but it seemed was trying to push him to Vitali.

Is Haye right to pursue Wlad and Wlad alone and should Wlad take the challenge and not keep on trying to get his big brother Vitali to fight Haye for him.

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Sat 19 Feb 2011, 4:42 pm

Haye was right to pursue wlad first as wlad is divisional number one. I hate this tag team mentality that surrounds the klitschkos in that you can't consider one without the other. Wlad has made it clear he doesn't fancy haye with his chisora antics and quickly arranging a fight with Adamek at the next likely time for a haye fight post summer. Haye should go after vitali now. Forgetting the fact he is wlads brother, he is divisional no2 and WBC title holder. Haye clearly sees wlad as the more beatable of the two and doesn't seem to fancy his chances with vitali.

by Imperial Ghosty Sat 19 Feb 2011, 5:15 pm

This is where the whole mentality of boxing is wrong nowadays, going after the divisions number is now considered ducking because he wont Vitali, how does that work?

I think Wlad has seen something in Haye that worries him, speed and power is Wlads kryptonite and Haye possesses both, with Vitali he could in most likelihood walk straight through to get his own shots off

by **oxring** Sat 19 Feb 2011, 7:03 pm

imperialghosty wrote:This is where the whole mentality of boxing is wrong nowadays, going after the divisions number is now considered ducking because he wont Vitali, how does that work?

I think Wlad has seen something in Haye that worries him, speed and power is Wlads kryptonite and Haye possesses both, with Vitali he could in most likelihood walk straight through to get his own shots off

C'mon be reasonable!!

If Wlad has seen something in Haye that "worries him" why did he sign for a fight - only for Haye to pull out on 2/weeks notice with a setanta-induced back injury and not offer a rematch date?

Wlad is merrily going about his business and cementing his place as the best. Haye's means of being the best was to sign for a fight, pull out at the last minute, offer a fight with Vitali, get a contract prepared then sign to fight the weakest champion ever.

Vitali is now nearly 40. And Haye isn't interested. How does that look? "The man who would be king" has instead fought the 37 year old John Ruiz and BACKED OUT of YET ANOTHER bout of negotiations with Wladimir to fight AUDLEY HARRISON..

Haye does not leave the last 2 years smelling of roses, rather the fertiliser beneath them.

Wlad this year is fighting Chisora and then, likely Adamek, whilst Vitali is fighting Solis. Haye has signed to fight no-one. Who looks like they're taking on the better challenges?

Of the world's best heavyweights - Wlad has fought/has been arranged to fight only for the challenger to pull out (Haye/Povetkin)/is arranged to fight numbers 3,4,5,6,7,8. 9 is fighting Vitali (busy), 10 is his next on the agenda, 11 is tarnished (Arreola) and 12 has been beaten (Chagaev).

Who do you want him to fight? Wlad has done more than the champion should have to do to make this fight. Ball has been in Haye's court for a while and he has failed to do anything with it.

Question - how has he retained respect and admiration after the Harrison farce?

by D4thincarnation Sat 19 Feb 2011, 7:15 pm

Wlad in his own words has said he is desperate to beat David Haye, to shut him up. Wlad's actions say something completely different.

Explain to be how Wlad got his back injury.... I mean abdominal injury two day before the fight with Chisora and less that one week later he is playing golf, swinging away with no issues.

Why did Haye make all the concessions, Wlad said he was willing to fight Haye anywhere but in negotiations this willingness disappeared.

Why after coming out of negotiation with Haye and the allegations that Haye's team said about the negotiations, team Wlad can only come out and say that Haye does not want to fight Vitali.

If Wlad is capable of fighting on July the 2nd and Haye has pulled out is Wlad still going to fight on July 2nd?

by Imperial Ghosty Sat 19 Feb 2011, 7:28 pm

Oxring it's become quite clear that your views are hardly the most balanced in the world. We're talking about there here and now not what's happened in the past. As it stands Wlad wants nothing to do with Haye and would far rather his brother face him because of fairly obvious issues about Hayes power.

In signing fights with Chisora and Adamek when there was a possible June showdown hardly shows Wlad to be overly willing to face him

by **oxring** Sat 19 Feb 2011, 7:31 pm

You're being ridiculous D4. Stop changing the facts.

Wlad had an intercostal injury over Chisora. It put him as a "doubt" for the fight - and it was deemed "why risk it". All of this is in the public domain via interviews.

To show how much Wlad was ducking Chisora - he promptly - signed to fight Chisora again.

Your evidence that Wlad is ducking comes from the fact that Haye's team have publicly complained - AND YOU BELIEVE THEM!!! They are lying d4! In the same way that you accuse Floyd of lying and ducking!

They have NO credibility in the world of boxing - for the opponents they have faced since moving up and the retirement date at the end of october.

If you can forgive Haye for Harrison, you can forgive him for anything.

I'll ask you some questions...

1. Why did Haye sign to fight Wlad through shameless self-promotion, then pull out with a phoney setanta induced back injury with 2 weeks notice. Wlad tore Chagaev apart instead.

2. Why did Haye enter into full negotiations with Vitali - and just before the fight was signed - he pulled out YET AGAIN to fight Valuev - and then DID NOT re-enter into negotiations with Vitali

by D4thincarnation Sat 19 Feb 2011, 7:41 pm

oxring wrote:You're being ridiculous D4. Stop changing the facts.

Wlad had an intercostal injury over Chisora. It put him as a "doubt" for the fight - and it was deemed "why risk it". All of this is in the public domain via interviews.

To show how much Wlad was ducking Chisora - he promptly - signed to fight Chisora again.

Your evidence that Wlad is ducking comes from the fact that Haye's team have publicly complained - AND YOU BELIEVE THEM!!! They are lying d4! In the same way that you accuse Floyd of lying and ducking!

They have NO credibility in the world of boxing - for the opponents they have faced since moving up and the retirement date at the end of october.

If you can forgive Haye for Harrison, you can forgive him for anything.

I'll ask you some questions...

1. Why did Haye sign to fight Wlad through shameless self-promotion, then pull out with a phoney setanta induced back injury with 2 weeks notice. Wlad tore Chagaev apart instead.

2. Why did Haye enter into full negotiations with Vitali - and just before the fight was signed - he pulled out YET AGAIN to fight Valuev - and then DID NOT re-enter into negotiations with Vitali

Intercostal injury, you would think that would affect his golf swing would you? Why not fight Chisora in March or even February, any answers. Wlad team when presented with what Haye's team said never denied it, the only rebuttle was that Haye doesn't want to fight Vitali.

Haye never bigged up the Harrison fight he told it like it was, the issue over Haye PPV money was the issue then, but Haye offered that up and more and Wlad then announces he will face Chisora 9 week before Haye, once Haye agreed to his demands.

1) Haye would have lost out big money, Wlad never had Haye on a big deal and all of Haye's money was coming from Sentanta.

2) Bad deal again, Haye knew the only way for parity is for him to gain a title and that what he did.

by **oxring** Sat 19 Feb 2011, 7:42 pm

imperialghosty wrote:Oxring it's become quite clear that your views are hardly the most balanced in the world. We're talking about there here and now not what's happened in the past. As it stands Wlad wants nothing to do with Haye and would far rather his brother face him because of fairly obvious issues about Hayes power.

In signing fights with Chisora and Adamek when there was a possible June showdown hardly shows Wlad to be overly willing to face him

I'm unbalanced! I seem to have paid a hard price for disagreeing with you.

"We're talking about the here and now". That's lovely. In that case, we can entirely excuse everything Haye has done in the heavyweight division in the past and only focus on today and pretend we are being balanced and fair.

"Fairly obvious issues about Haye's power". Which has been proved with a KO over the much-kayoed Barrett, and a faded Ruiz. Meanwhile Wlad has fought Thompson, Chagaev, Peter - these people all can punch.

How DARE Wlad sign to fight the number 10 and number 4 heavyweights in the world. How dare he. Clearly shows lack of ambition and intent. Especially since he's beaten numbers 5-9 (except Solis).

Simple questions. If Wlad has "issues" with Haye's power - why has he signed to fight Haye in the past?

Why did he even enter into negotiations with Haye again?

Or are you suggesting that the manner of the win over Audley scared Wlad off?

I keep repeating myself - so I may as well again - before you criticise Wlad, please explain and excuse Audley.
Rolling Eyes

by **oxring** Sat 19 Feb 2011, 7:50 pm

The re-arranged date with Chisora was made to accomodate German TV, RTL. That is common knowledge D4 - I'm surprised you're not mentioning that.

Wlad stated he would still be able to make the July 2 date. Haye scoffed at the notion. Yes, Wlad has come out since and said it would be tough - but as much of that is showing respect for Chisora. Not unreasonable.

Adamek is a great fight for the division - and - a fight with more US interest than Haye.

Haye's luster has been tarnished stateside; perhaps irreversibly, by the failure to fight Wlad straight away and then fights like Ruiz and Harrison.

In Europe - the German audience will allow the Klitschko's to fight anyone. In Eastern Europe - the big fights are Povetkin and Adamek. In America, after Adamek's successful "US tour" - he is high profile and ACTIVE. So an autumn date with Adamek is, once again, the fight the fans want to see.

Why can Haye only fight once all year? Why not more than that?

He was brushed by a jab against Harrison - he could have fought straight away! Why has it been 4 months already with NO fight announced.

I have a lot of respect for Haye's talent - he has power and pace (although stamina issues) and a great deal of charisma. However - outside of the UK - where do you think he stands?. He is number 3 without beating a single top 10 contender; and the weakest of the 4 champions.

by D4thincarnation Sat 19 Feb 2011, 8:04 pm

Are you kidding me, Haye vs Wlad is the heavyweight fight the world wants to see, and that includes America

I forget German TV does not show anything in February or March.

And Wlad has not signed to fight Adamek, he has been roped into one of the K brother's contract where he can fight either one.

So will Wlad sit down with Haye and set up a date for September or will he send big brother to fight his battles for him while he takes on the lighter punching, less dangerous Adamek?

Come do you really believe the US boxing fans want to see Adamek vs Wlad over Haye vs Wlad, Do I have show you a doesn't clips of US boxers, sports journalist and US boxing fans saying they want Haye vs Wlad, do I really?

Wlad straight away, Even Wlad himself said that Haye needs to fighter other boxers before his gets to him.

Wlad could have fought Haye in May or June but Wlad said he didn't want to come to England and fight, so much for being desperate Wlad.

by **oxring** Sat 19 Feb 2011, 8:36 pm

WTF? Wlad is "desperate" to fight him?

No - he probably isn't desperate. Nor did I say he was.

Why should he be "desperate"...HE'S THE CHAMPION. *Shock* *Horror* - the CHALLENGER has to chase the CHAMPION, not the other way round. Haye has, historically, not done enough to make this fight happen.

http://www.sportingo.com/boxing/a15934_haye-harrisons-boxing-farce-puts-frazier-ali-foreman-shame
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=24987&more=1
http://www.boxingnews24.com/2011/01/booth-looking-to-match-haye-against-38-year-old-mormeck-boxing-news/

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/SPORT/02/07/boxing.klitschko.haye.bout/index.html
http://www.boxingscene.com/david-haye-explains-why-he-fight-vitali-klitschko--36141
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/25112010/58/warren-haye-damages-boxing-fighting-duds.html

http://boxingaction.com/index.php?/201101311665/Professional_Boxing/david-haye-is-enmeshed-in-a-web-of-complications.html
This one is from a US site and is pretty much on the money. I haven't posted any of the anti-haye ravings on US boxing boards - eg Eastside or saddoboxing - as most of them aren't safe to print. They tend to revolve around haye being a "fraud" or a "joke" - and those are the nice ones.
"...it is not too late for David Haye to make amends for his disastrous mistakes and abandon crudities for acceptable and rewarding social graces that true champions either naturally posses or acquire with maturity. "
"He is [Haye], unfortunately, a professional boxer with an amateur apprentice guiding principle The Haye boxing business direction fails miserably to match his natural boxing talent."

This is a search of US ONLY sites involving "Adamek" "boxing":
http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/qa-tomasz-adamek-8-74321
http://blog.nj.com/njv_mark_diionno/2010/02/polish_boxing_champ_tomasz_ada.html
http://espn.go.com/sports/boxing/notebook/_/id/5127500/cris-arreola-tomasz-adamek-make-history
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/2010-04-21-polish-boxer-fights-with-heavy-heart_N.htm

All of which paint a much better picture than that of Haye.

Final points - on the way out - if we compare the HW records of the 2
Adamek has: Golota, Estrada, Arreola, Grant and Maddalone
Haye has: Barrett, Valuev, Ruiz and Harrison.

Who's HW resume looks better?

Adding to which - who has faced the better fighters overall?
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As a postscript - you ought to know d4 - it takes about 2 weeks, if a generally fit and well athlete (like the HW champion of the world) to recover from an intercostal strain. So the fact that after injuring his side 1 week before the fight, 2 weeks later he was trying a round of golf - is NOT that surprising. If it is "evidence" of "ducking" it is the most shallow, feeble excuse for evidence I have ever had the misfortune to come across.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun 20 Feb 2011, 11:19 am

Well Haye has beaten two former world champions while Adamek has scraped past not even nearly men

by **oxring** Sun 20 Feb 2011, 12:53 pm

imperialghosty wrote:Well Haye has beaten two former world champions while Adamek has scraped past not even nearly men

Yes - if you look at things like that, it is a reasonable defence of Haye's legacy.

But that's slightly unfair when the Valuev was hideously inactive, was and is probably the worst HW champ in history and had robbed Holyfield and Ruiz recently before.

Ruiz was terribly inactive and pretty old - HOWEVER - Haye did stop him impressively - ALTHOUGH - Haye did look very tired before he stopped him...

Meanwhile - Golota - old, faded and a "never was" but an impressive win nonetheless. Estrada - a good gatekeeper but a VERY close fight. Arreola - a fantastic win - arreola one of the big hopes for the US in the HW division and again, a contender. Grant - again a gatekeeper and a clear win, same for maddalone, good stoppage...

As such - Adamek has really boxed himself into contention for the world HW title. In the traditional sense where fighters earn the right to fight for the title...

by D4thincarnation Sun 20 Feb 2011, 1:01 pm

Adamek struggled with Grant's size and was in real trouble against him, do you really think that he will be able to cope with Wlad.

Haye has what Wlad fears speed and power, thats why the fight will almost probably never happen.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun 20 Feb 2011, 1:03 pm

Oxring

Your ignoring one vital thing, Haye has a world title and Adamek doesn't

by D4thincarnation Sun 20 Feb 2011, 1:07 pm

imperialghosty wrote:Oxring

Your ignoring one vital thing, Haye has a world title and Adamek doesn't

Didn't Wlad and Vitali say they wanted all 4 belts in the family, I guess they were not serious

by **oxring** Sun 20 Feb 2011, 1:54 pm

OK. I can't be making myself clear.

BESIDES the title, Haye has achieved very little in the heavyweight division.

The title was a gift, the result of some brash marketing and targeting the weakest champion available.

Haye SIGNED for a fight with Wlad; only to pull out at the last minute.

Haye negotiated a contract with Vitali; only to pull out at the last minute.

Why does that mean that now the brothers are ducking Haye?

Why, if Haye wants to build a "legacy" is he still set on retiring in October?

If Haye does continue and retire in October, at the still prime age of 31, still 5 years younger and 20 fights shy of Wlad and 10 years shy of Vitali - why will that mean that Wlad and Vit ducked him?

D4 - you are guilty of offering double standards: -

If Floyd Mayweather had arranged a fight with Manny, only to pull out with 2 weeks notice, refused to fight more than once a year and then declared he was "retiring" in October - and the failure to fight was Manny's fault - you would accuse Floyd of "ducking".

In fact - Floyd did have a contract ready, only for the fight to fall apart on drug testing regs. You blamed Floyd and accused him of ducking.
Floyd does refuse to fight more than once a year - you have criticised him and accused him of ducking.
Floyd has declared he is "retiring" and that he is "not thinking about boxing right now" - you have criticised him and accused him of ducking.

WHY is it acceptable for Haye to behave in the same way as Floyd and yet escape your criticism?

by Rufus Sun 20 Feb 2011, 3:20 pm

For the little it's worth I thought I would offer my thoughts,

I was a big fan of Haye as a Cruiser, I have to admit I love the trash talking and you just can't argue with his KO percentage. My opinion is wavering but for some reason I am still giving him the benefit of the doubt…

I remember a lot of people on the old 606 talking about Haye needing to have a few fights in the HW division to establish himself as a HW first (I personally agreed), so although I cannot excuse the Audley farce, I think he can be forgiven for the majority of his fights at HW.

As for him backing out of the first fight with Wlad I think it is pretty well documented that Setanta were his paymasters at the time, and they went under, I don't believe Haye suffered an Injury but I certainly wouldn't want my career defining fight being picked up by another broadcaster halfway through the promotion not to mention risk a lower payday.

I happen to think that Wlad really does want this fight, just on his terms, I personally believe Wlad 'injured' himself as soon as he realised Haye was potentially available for a bout in the first half of 2011. What has changed? Is Haye really such a small challenge for Wlad, that he can fight Chisora 9 weeks before and risk entering the ring jaded with the first live opponent he has faced for a long time?

I think the main reason we have not yet seen this fight since Haye won the WBA belt is Sauerland is getting a slice of Haye's Pie. I believe the deal extended to 3 fights beyond the bout with Valuev so by my count that gives him one more fight until he is a free agent; I think we may finally see Unification in the autumn.

To be honest I see both brothers beating Haye, I would like to be wrong, but Haye has been too easy to hit against Barret and then Ruiz and if the Klitchkos connect, he will go down.

That said he does have a chance.

If this fight does not happen he hasn't done enough to cement his legacy, he has achieved far less than Lewis and is not as loved as Bruno, I dare say in time he risks being forgotten.

by BoxingFan88 Mon 21 Feb 2011, 1:55 pm

Haye should fight vitali. Lets be honest, no one in their right mind is going to say wlad has a chance if haye ko's vitali. If he can do that no one needs to see the wlad match because we already know the result.

by manos de piedra Mon 21 Feb 2011, 4:08 pm

If you look at track records it clearly favours Wlad here. Not only has he signed to fight him in the past but hes also consistently taken on top divisional contenders. All the offers have come from the Klitschko camp inculding the long denied by Haye 50/50 offer which he now admits was offered post Valuev.

What is apparent though, is that Wlad knows Haye is a risk and as such he doesnt want to be inactive for 10 months before a fight with him. Its also clear that theres only so far he will go at the negotiating table. Both camps are lying when they say they are pulling out all the stops.

Haye has been at heavy for some time now and has also had his retirement date planned from the off so lets not pretend that this fight has only just become possible. Haye has plotted a careful path reducing as much risk as possible and maximising financial gain.

Due to the complications of having to satisfy two parties and two tv networks only one date was realistically available in July. This would leave Wlad inactive for 10 months. Lets not forget he offered an April date which Sky shot down. He wasnt a mind reader so he could not have forseen that.

I believe Wlad is guilty of wanting the fight on his own terms. He wants the date to suit as well as the other championship rights such as entrance, promotional rights and so forth. Whether he is entitled to this or not is a seperate argument. I think given his track record over the last 7 years he is as he is the recognised best heavyweight and has earned that through taking on the divisions best. The fight can still be made depending on how much Haye wants it. His enforced retirement date makes little sense to me. Retire based on the number of fights you are going to have rather than a specific date in order to ease scheduling. Whats an extra few months if means getting a fight you claim you are desperate for?

by Adam D Mon 21 Feb 2011, 4:32 pm

Can I just applaud Oxring in his first task as moderator - he has D4 and Imperial singing from the same hymnsheet - namely having a go at him :lol:

To be honest, I think both camps are telling half truths.

If they wanted to fight, they could and earn a shedload of money.

by azania Mon 21 Feb 2011, 4:40 pm

oxring wrote:OK. I can't be making myself clear.

BESIDES the title, Haye has achieved very little in the heavyweight division.

The title was a gift, the result of some brash marketing and targeting the weakest champion available.

Haye SIGNED for a fight with Wlad; only to pull out at the last minute.

Haye negotiated a contract with Vitali; only to pull out at the last minute.

Why does that mean that now the brothers are ducking Haye?

Why, if Haye wants to build a "legacy" is he still set on retiring in October?

If Haye does continue and retire in October, at the still prime age of 31, still 5 years younger and 20 fights shy of Wlad and 10 years shy of Vitali - why will that mean that Wlad and Vit ducked him?

D4 - you are guilty of offering double standards: -

If Floyd Mayweather had arranged a fight with Manny, only to pull out with 2 weeks notice, refused to fight more than once a year and then declared he was "retiring" in October - and the failure to fight was Manny's fault - you would accuse Floyd of "ducking".

In fact - Floyd did have a contract ready, only for the fight to fall apart on drug testing regs. You blamed Floyd and accused him of ducking.
Floyd does refuse to fight more than once a year - you have criticised him and accused him of ducking.
Floyd has declared he is "retiring" and that he is "not thinking about boxing right now" - you have criticised him and accused him of ducking.

WHY is it acceptable for Haye to behave in the same way as Floyd and yet escape your criticism?

Agreed 100%. I'll also add that imo Haye is trying to delay the fight for economic reasons. He is well aware that by him fighting and knocking out "bums" and the Klits doing likkewise, it will hype up the fight and increase their bank balances no end. Its a business decision. He picks up £10 knocking out the Audreys of this world without much risk and makes megabucks taking on either Klit.

For what its worth, he beats them both.....unless they land first. :lol:

by D4thincarnation Mon 21 Feb 2011, 4:55 pm

Concessions, Manny and Haye have made them to get the fight on, Wlad still is putting obstacles in the way and trying to shift Haye to Wlad.

The K brother have "salve contracts" and their opponents are forced to accepted their demands and chose which brother should fight what opponent.

Even their promotional company gives fighters a raw deal and stopped boxers in the Ukraine from getting on mainstream TV.

by **oxring** Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:05 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:Concessions, Manny and Haye have made them to get the fight on, Wlad still is putting obstacles in the way and trying to shift Haye to Wlad.

The K brother have "salve contracts" and their opponents are forced to accepted their demands and chose which brother should fight what opponent.

Even their promotional company gives fighters a raw deal and stopped boxers in the Ukraine from getting on mainstream TV.

That's not answering my post though...

Saying "concessions" is not enough - why do you criticise Floyd for behaving the same way as Floyd - (inactivity, pulling out of contracts, talking a hard game but failing to put pen to paper).

Wlad signed. Haye backed out. 50/50 was made and ready to sign. Haye backed out a 2nd time. That doesn't reflect badly on Wlad surely?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:09 pm

Haye in fairness sees Vlad as the number one man at heavy. He's sees a guy with three crowns and the ring's number 1. If you put yourself in his shoes...He beats Vitali and everybody say's Vitali is past it. Also Vitali has a stronger chin and is more durable..he'll make Haye work and is probably the harder challenge.

Vlad also brings more money and Boxing is a money orientated business.

Don't criticise Haye I mean who remembers MCclellan and Watson!!

Boxers should be selfish it's their lives they are risking.

Haye is doing nothing wrong!

by Adam D Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:10 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Haye is doing nothing wrong!

and therefore, nor are the K's

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:11 pm

Never said they were..

by **oxring** Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:12 pm

Hobo wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Haye is doing nothing wrong!

and therefore, nor are the K's

Truss - scroll up the thread - Wlad has been criticised for pillar to post by ghosty and d4 for dodging and ducking haye.

Haye is doing nothing wrong in calling out the fight. Needs to do more to make it IMO.

by azania Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:14 pm

azania wrote:
oxring wrote:OK. I can't be making myself clear.

BESIDES the title, Haye has achieved very little in the heavyweight division.

The title was a gift, the result of some brash marketing and targeting the weakest champion available.

Haye SIGNED for a fight with Wlad; only to pull out at the last minute.

Haye negotiated a contract with Vitali; only to pull out at the last minute.

Why does that mean that now the brothers are ducking Haye?

Why, if Haye wants to build a "legacy" is he still set on retiring in October?

If Haye does continue and retire in October, at the still prime age of 31, still 5 years younger and 20 fights shy of Wlad and 10 years shy of Vitali - why will that mean that Wlad and Vit ducked him?

D4 - you are guilty of offering double standards: -

If Floyd Mayweather had arranged a fight with Manny, only to pull out with 2 weeks notice, refused to fight more than once a year and then declared he was "retiring" in October - and the failure to fight was Manny's fault - you would accuse Floyd of "ducking".

In fact - Floyd did have a contract ready, only for the fight to fall apart on drug testing regs. You blamed Floyd and accused him of ducking.
Floyd does refuse to fight more than once a year - you have criticised him and accused him of ducking.
Floyd has declared he is "retiring" and that he is "not thinking about boxing right now" - you have criticised him and accused him of ducking.

WHY is it acceptable for Haye to behave in the same way as Floyd and yet escape your criticism?

Agreed 100%. I'll also add that imo Haye is trying to delay the fight for economic reasons. He is well aware that by him fighting and knocking out "bums" and the Klits doing likkewise, it will hype up the fight and increase their bank balances no end. Its a business decision. He picks up £10m knocking out the Audreys of this world without much risk and makes megabucks taking on either Klit.

For what its worth, he beats them both.....unless they land first. :lol:

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:19 pm

Don't think it's the fighters fault mate. Haye's promoter and Vlad's promoter obviously don't like eachother and are too busy trying to get one up on eachother than make the fighter!!

ure the fighters are making the usual noises but like King negotiating with Arum these two are ruining the fight with silly standoffs.....

Money talks the deal will be made...

As for Haye he's cleaned up cruiser and won a heavy title...

He's done enough to warrant more respect than some give him!

by ArchBritishchris Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:20 pm

If Wlad really wanted to fight Haye, why is he fighting Chisora and Adamek between now and September (which almost rules him out for the entire year)? He announced these new fights during negotiations with Haye's camp, doesn't seem as though the Haye fight is very important to him. As I remember when Haye pulled out temporarily of a fight due to injury, siting a delay of a couple of weeks (as happened with Froch vs Abraham, numerous other fights), Wlad pulled out totally and immediately signed a fight with someone else. He pulled out of the Chisora fight with two days to go, because of an injury. Before removing himself entirely for another 5 months. Why not just a short delay? Chisora will have to tone down the fronting now, to make sure the fight actually happens.

Ruiz and Valuev are both 2 time world champs. No offense to Adamek, but Golata was washed up, Grant was washed up when he took on Lennox Lewis. For Haye at HW its a case of so far so good. He does need some more big fights and apparently he is trying to arrange them. Talks with Chagaev have proved difficult, because of the hepatitis issue. Haye doesn't need to rush, but hopefully there will be some big time contests in the not to distant future.

by manos de piedra Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:21 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:Concessions, Manny and Haye have made them to get the fight on, Wlad still is putting obstacles in the way and trying to shift Haye to Wlad.

The K brother have "salve contracts" and their opponents are forced to accepted their demands and chose which brother should fight what opponent.

Even their promotional company gives fighters a raw deal and stopped boxers in the Ukraine from getting on mainstream TV.

D4

Guess what? The offer on the table for the fight was made BY the Klitschkos. They offered 50/50 after the Valuev fight when Haye won his portion of the title. Haye denied this long enough to enable to fight Audley and hiding behind the slave contract issue. There is no slave contract. To add to this, virtually all top fighters in a position of leverage do this. The contract Haye signed with Valuev was no better than the Klitschkos. It involved options, rematch clauses and all the rest of it. So this argument is void. The Klitschkos drive a hard bargain - like anyone else who dominates a division. Im not even going to bother with the stipulations that Pacquaio enforces.

You seem determined to avoid the obvious points:

April was offered as a date for Haye. Sky weent interested so it was not viable. Are you suggesting Wlad knew this when he proposed the date? Much like he psychicly knew Setanta would go bust two years ago?

The second date, July, left Wlad inactive for 10 months. Not ideal preparation for a unification match and one of the biggest in Wlads career. So as a result he chose a low risk tune up fight beforehand. This isnt exactly so bizzare is it? In fact you could argue it makes sense for Wlad.

The issue is one of timing. Unfortunately, July is a bad date Wlad. Its leaves the possibilty of getting rusty. Whether this would actually happen or not is something Wlad is not willing to leave to chance. Whilst I would love the fight to go ahead and Wlad to just make the sacrifice, I can see why as the number 1 guy in the division he feels like he shouldnt have to expose himself to this risk and is entitled to a date that suits him. Especially after Haye has pulled out of a fight with him before and left him looking for an opponent at short notice in the past. Now he is expected to be hemmed in to only fighting on one specific date of Hayes demand that doesnt even suit him? I can easily see why he demanded a tune up or the fight at another time. This idea that after 3 years in the division Haye will only give such a tiny window for the fight to happen is pretty ridiculous.

Lastly, you say Haye "isnt interested" in Vitali. Others might call it "running scared". He thinks Wlad is the easier option due to being the more vunerable of the two. Hes never pursued Vitali and his claims that his whole reason is based on Wlad making a video is ridiculous. Especially as Vitali has been on tv calling him out several times in the past. Haye is supposedly pulling out all the stops and making all the sacrifices to make these fights happened yet he pulled the plug rather than allow Wlad a tune up and has never once considerd Vitali as an opponent. Clearly both camps are guilty of wanting things their own way.

by azania Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:21 pm

Its getting tiring when people accuse boxers of ducking each other. Firstly boxing is a business. Both parties are fully aware that this fight will generate huge purses and are both positioning themselves to get the maximum out of it as they can. Truss asks if anyone remembers Michael Watson. I know Mike very well, spared with him (showing my age here), went partying with him, watched him train before Benn, MacCullum, Don Lee and both Eubank fights. The stress they put their bodies through for our entertainment is incredible. Boxers know the risks involved and deserve the most they can get in terms of purses and with the least risk possible.

Haye is not ducking the K's/ Pac/Manny are not ducking each other. Floyd will sell his 0 for $50m and his health. Get over it. Take the test Pacman.

by D4thincarnation Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:22 pm

oxring wrote:
Hobo wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Haye is doing nothing wrong!

and therefore, nor are the K's

Truss - scroll up the thread - Wlad has been criticised for pillar to post by ghosty and d4 for dodging and ducking haye.

Haye is doing nothing wrong in calling out the fight. Needs to do more to make it IMO.

Yes if you talk the talk, call Haye out covered in baby oil, say you are desperate for the fight and even when Haye agrees to all of your demands then sign to fight Dereck "14 fight" Chisora then he has every right to be criticise.

Who is calling for the Chisora fight?

Not me.

by Rowley Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:24 pm

Think both want the fight but unfortunately financially neither NEED to make the fight. Sad fact is that should the fight not happen Wlad will still pack in 50,000 + against pretty much anyone and get a decent chunk off RTL and Haye will do enough PPV's and enough people to the MEN to earn a decent chunk.

Shouldn't be the way but such are the realities of the sport

by D4thincarnation Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:28 pm

Wlad could have fought in May, but that would mean fighting in England has Wlad said no German venues were available, but Wlad did not want fight in England.

Why not come out and say to Haye July is too long but September is a date we can both make.

No,

What does Wlad do, he sign up Adamek in September putting an end to him ever fighting Haye.

Nice one Wlad.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:29 pm

No but the Chisora fight is to keep him from getting ring rusty. He doesn't want to be fighting Haye after being out of the ring for a year at his age.

Look how rusty guys like Hagler looked against Leonard and he was younger. Ring rust can be a deadly thing for older Boxers....

Just think the promoters are playing games with eachother!!

by D4thincarnation Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:32 pm

https://www.youtube.com/user/KlitschkoChannel

Wlad officials calls Haye out but then decides he wants to fight Chisora.

Lets hope you don't break a fingernail and have to postpone it again for 4 months.

by azania Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:34 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:https://www.youtube.com/user/KlitschkoChannel

Wlad officials calls Haye out but then decides he wants to fight Chisora.

Lets hope you don't break a fingernail and have to postpone it again for 4 months.

Didn't Wlad have to re-schedule his fight with Chisora because of injury? I believe he signed a contract to fight Chisora and is honouring it now.

by manos de piedra Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:41 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:Wlad could have fought in May, but that would mean fighting in England has Wlad said no German venues were available, but Wlad did not want fight in England.

Why not come out and say to Haye July is too long but September is a date we can both make.

No,

What does Wlad do, he sign up Adamek in September putting an end to him ever fighting Haye.

Nice one Wlad.

No he couldnt fight in May as RTL werent on board for it. Again please explain how he knew April would not be viable with Sky? He didnt. He offered a date in April that would mean an immediate fight or a date in July in which he wanted a tune up beforehand.

Wlad is guilty of not wanting to fight in July without a tune up. Thats all you can say for sure. The rest is just your own specualtion which seems to ignore logic and Wlads track record and history of both signing to fight Haye and of taking on top challengers. Chisora is a dud fight yes. But it was intended as a tune up. The only reason I think he selected Chisora at all was as a precursor to a Haye fight anyhow. And if I remember correctly you were accusing him of ducking Chisora not long ago anyway because he saw Chisora was "up for it".

Wlad has said the fight can happen later. Wlad has not signed to fight Adamek later. This is a myth. Adamek is signed to fight a Klitschko. It hasnt been decided which. It will be whichever one is free. So September is there as is December as is next year and lots of others dates provided Haye doesnt retire. Haye was the one who pulled the plug on the negotiations and publically ruled out fighting Wlad in the future. The Klitschkos have got on with facing other opponents and will possibly add Solis and Adamek (two more top rate heavies) to their list of opponents while Haye dilly dallys over trying to sort out a mandatory.

by smashingstormcrow Mon 21 Feb 2011, 5:59 pm

I think that they both know it will be the biggest fight of their careers, so they are delaying it... why the rush? Their fights in the interim (Chisora, Povetkin, and probably more) will attract publicity, along with various other PR stunts. They'll sign the contract when the time is right, and make a packet.

by D4thincarnation Mon 21 Feb 2011, 6:12 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No but the Chisora fight is to keep him from getting ring rusty. He doesn't want to be fighting Haye after being out of the ring for a year at his age.

Look how rusty guys like Hagler looked against Leonard and he was younger. Ring rust can be a deadly thing for older Boxers....

Just think the promoters are playing games with eachother!!

Yes then Why not take the Chisora fight in March of Feb, or negotiate the fight with Haye for September, instead of setting up the fight with Adamek.

Why go through the charade of all the negotiation with Haye and at the end of it say you fighting Chisora and were in negotiation with him at the same time.

by azania Mon 21 Feb 2011, 6:17 pm

D4, are you suggesting that Wlad is scared of losing even though he will get a career high purse by a long shot? If so, do you think fighters fight for glory or money?

by D4thincarnation Mon 21 Feb 2011, 6:19 pm

manos de piedra

I never accused him of ducking Chisora, but I did say the injury was very suspect.

And when Wlad knew the April date was not available why not tell Haye then he intends to fight Chisora in April and then he will fight Haye in September if he wins.

That July 2nd date with Chisora in Apirl made it clear what Wlad was all about.

And then to come out of negotiations with Haye and say David doesn't want to fight Vitali tell you he doesn't want the fight.

by manos de piedra Mon 21 Feb 2011, 6:59 pm

D4thincarnation wrote: manos de piedra

I never accused him of ducking Chisora, but I did say the injury was very suspect.

And when Wlad knew the April date was not available why not tell Haye then he intends to fight Chisora in April and then he will fight Haye in September if he wins.

That July 2nd date with Chisora in Apirl made it clear what Wlad was all about.

And then to come out of negotiations with Haye and say David doesn't want to fight Vitali tell you he doesn't want the fight.

How do you know exactly hat was said and what wasnt said D4? You seem to have been present at these discussions.

What I know is that Wlad and Haye entered into discussions around January with the intention of setting up a future fight. This alone suggests Wlad had intent to fight. It may even be possible he faked an injury to get out of the Chisora fight and to negotiate with Haye. If he didnt want Haye - why negotiate at all?

Wlad is tied to RTL and they gave him two dates to fight. Late April and early July. April didnt suit Sky. Again, here is another example of the notion that Wlad ducked Haye being off the mark. How did Wlad know April would be shafted. Could he have predicted this? No. So how does this fit in with your ducking theory? Had Sky given the green light for April as anyone would expect then the fight would be on.

July was NEVER announced as the date of a fight. Negotiations were not complete. By all accounts, most points were agreed upon - but not all. Wlad, knowing that July left him inactive for 10 months decided to arrange a low risk tune up in the interim. Haye refused to accommodate and pulled out of negotiations. You continue to refuse to acknowledge this as a reason. I dont know why, as it makes sense. More sense than Wlad being scared.

Wlad said the possibility of July could still happen, or the fight could happen later in the year. Haye declared the fight was off. Adamek was pencilled in as an opponent for either Klitschko in September - depending on circumstances.

And now the pair are basically back where they started.

Now from that, I dont see how you can accuse either party of ducking each other. Its apparent that its a complicated issue and that both parties want to have it their own way. Both parties believe they are making concessions and the other ones are being unreasonable.

Now I dont believe that these two camps wasted time and energy entering into discussions without genuinely trying to agree a fight. The effort of negotiating with TV networks, venues, contracts and overall expense is far to elaborate for this to just be a sham. There are easier, cheaper and more practical ways to avoid a fight. Haye has used the "slave contract" line for example to postpone having to negotiate and allow him to fight Audley.

All of this is before you even consider the track record of Wlad who has signed and trained for the very same David Haye and who has a proven track record of taking on the best in the divison. Which again doesnt point to someone who is either a ducker or a coward.

Like most of these top level fights these days the issues are more complicated and come down to timing, personal and financial differences, ego and all the rest of it. Boxers arent cowards by nature. The bottom line was that Wlad was unwilling to to leave himself inactive for 10 months before a huge fight (some would say fairly) and Haye wasnt willing to accomodate Wlads demand for a tune up in between (some would say fairly). Sometimes the most obvious answer is the simplest.

by BoxingFan88 Mon 21 Feb 2011, 7:00 pm

But manos.... Thats all well and good but wlad has recently came out and said he can't fight on july 2nd because its too early.

by **oxring** Mon 21 Feb 2011, 7:22 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:But manos.... Thats all well and good but wlad has recently came out and said he can't fight on july 2nd because its too early.

No - he said it would be "difficult"

Manos' point remains nonetheless. Wlad didn't want 10 months inactivity, so he picked the next HW down in boxrec's world rankings - Chisora (everyone above has been battered by either brother and are tarnished for it). He offered April, sky turned him down. He thought about July - but the only way that happens is if Chisora lasts 6 seconds and Wlad has the opportunity to stay conditioned. Anyway - Haye rejected it out of hand.

That is not unreasonable.

I would remind all posters of the class A Farce, with a-force last november.

Had Floyd fought someone so tarnished - would you have forgiven him, d4?

The fight made sense in terms of money - nothing more. Yet now it seems both forgiven and forgotten.

Anyway d4 - why do you cut Haye slack for his "superfight" not being made but not Floyd? They're in pretty similar positions...

by manos de piedra Mon 21 Feb 2011, 7:24 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:But manos.... Thats all well and good but wlad has recently came out and said he can't fight on july 2nd because its too early.

No he just said later in the year would be better. Haye was the one being adament about the July date saying it was July or nothing. Now that Haye has pulled out of the negotiations, Wlad is saying later in the year would be a more suitable date if they were to re enter into discussions in the future. Presumably after Haye fights his mandatory and Wlad takes care of Chisora.

by D4thincarnation Mon 21 Feb 2011, 7:29 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:But manos.... Thats all well and good but wlad has recently came out and said he can't fight on july 2nd because its too early.

No he just said later in the year would be better. Haye was the one being adament about the July date saying it was July or nothing. Now that Haye has pulled out of the negotiations, Wlad is saying later in the year would be a more suitable date if they were to re enter into discussions in the future. Presumably after Haye fights his mandatory and Wlad takes care of Chisora.

When there are investigating a crime and you have to interview a suspect, changes in there story is always sign they aren't being truthful.

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