English & Welsh Tactics On Saturday

A simple question is what tactics are both teams going to employ on saturday. Will England keep it tight, will they opt for a kicking/line out game to gain territory , will they smash it up the middle or will they look for the big boys to go wide.

On the otherhand, will Wales be looking to play a ball in hand fast game or will they be looking to play a structured game and kick the points. Will Jamie Roberts be banging it up the middle as usual or will both the wings be given a license to roam.

In esscence what tactics will your respective teams require to put the other team away.

I would love to see North move infield as often as possible we need to put as much pressure as we possibly can on the inexperienced Tuilagi.

I think England will mix it up. I think & hope Flutey/Tuilagi midfield will be a real handful.
I can also see Wilko cross field kicking for Bannas against Shane - no contest there!
England will definitely attack the Welsh line out & if that proves fruitful then Wilko will kick for field position no doubt.

If I was MJ, I'd be pretty focused on the Flutey/Tuilagi pairing and want to see how it performs in all kinds of different situations, so I'd be looking to get as much ball to them as possible

"I can also see Wilko cross field kicking for Bannas against Shane - no contest there!"


So can I, with Tuilagi hovering behind to hoover up the spillage. Not something England should become over-reliant on though. It's been done to death in the past.

Hope that Shane turns the behomoth inside out and shows that there is still a place for skill rather than grunt in our game..
Tanks versus cavalry.As an old fogey I would love to see skill win over brawn.
May as well watch American Footie or Rugby League.Let us hope that right prevails!

Taffineastbourne wrote:Hope that Shane turns the behomoth inside out and shows that there is still a place for skill rather than grunt in our game..
Tanks versus cavalry.As an old fogey I would love to see skill win over brawn.
May as well watch American Footie or Rugby League.Let us hope that right prevails!

Rugby has always been about both grunt and skill and both are required in a successful team. you never know Jones might use the same tactic for North. However, the height difference between Bannas & Shane is so different it may well be worth a go!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Hope that Shane turns the behomoth inside out and shows that there is still a place for skill rather than grunt in our game..
Tanks versus cavalry.As an old fogey I would love to see skill win over brawn.
May as well watch American Footie or Rugby League.Let us hope that right prevails!

Rugby has always been about both grunt and skill and both are required in a successful team. you never know Jones might use the same tactic for North. However, the height difference between Bannas & Shane is so different it may well be worth a go!

If you cant create anything it is always worth looking for an error from the opposition.Wales will hopefully be more creative.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Hope that Shane turns the behomoth inside out and shows that there is still a place for skill rather than grunt in our game..
Tanks versus cavalry.As an old fogey I would love to see skill win over brawn.
May as well watch American Footie or Rugby League.Let us hope that right prevails!

Rugby has always been about both grunt and skill and both are required in a successful team. you never know Jones might use the same tactic for North. However, the height difference between Bannas & Shane is so different it may well be worth a go!

If you cant create anything it is always worth looking for an error from the opposition.Wales will hopefully be more creative.

I know we are all respectively biased but I would suggest England have been more creative than Wales for a while now and long may it continue - enjoy the game, I know I will, I am going with my best pal who is Welsh.

If anyone watching Wales over the last three years does not know what Wales will do must have fallen asleep, I hope I am wrong but somehow I doubt it.

England have definitely been more creative than Wales over the last 18 months. Wales have scored just 16 tries in their last 12 games. One of which was a penalty try, one was Phillips effort against Ireland are 4 in their last game v ba baas, which you would expect. Wales have the fire power in the back line, but gatland's tactics just don't get the most out of our talent.
I think England will beat us on Saturday, probably by around 20 points. Then they'll come to Cardiff with their 1st team and win again. Wales v Argentina will be a very close game though.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
I can also see Wilko cross field kicking for Bannas against Shane - no contest there!.

Shane has the experience and standing jump power to compete with bigger wingers for the high ball, as Rory Lamont found out in the 2010 six nations

CurlyOsp wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
I can also see Wilko cross field kicking for Bannas against Shane - no contest there!.

Shane has the experience and standing jump power to compete with bigger wingers for the high ball, as Rory Lamont found out in the 2010 six nations

He does, it is quite impressive how he has adapted to play against wingers much taller than him in defence.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Hope that Shane turns the behomoth inside out and shows that there is still a place for skill rather than grunt in our game..
Tanks versus cavalry.As an old fogey I would love to see skill win over brawn.
May as well watch American Footie or Rugby League.Let us hope that right prevails!

Rugby has always been about both grunt and skill and both are required in a successful team. you never know Jones might use the same tactic for North. However, the height difference between Bannas & Shane is so different it may well be worth a go!

If you cant create anything it is always worth looking for an error from the opposition.Wales will hopefully be more creative.

I know we are all respectively biased but I would suggest England have been more creative than Wales for a while now and long may it continue - enjoy the game, I know I will, I am going with my best pal who is Welsh.

My view remains that kicking the ball for Banahan to challenge Shane in the air is neither creative nor will it be productive.Perhaps the interpretation of what constitutes "creative" is in question.I would see this tactic as an admission that other ploys had failed.

Expect johnny wilkinson to bombard priestland. It's priestland 1st start for Wales and given his form and the lack of it from Byrne, this should have happened in the 6 nations and possibly the autumn too.
Also expect our line out to be completely dominated and the ball we do win will be dreadful. Also expect warburtom to pounce on a few that completely clear the line. Bennett normally saves this master class for a line out 5 metres from our line.

manofgwent wrote:Expect johnny wilkinson to bombard priestland. It's priestland 1st start for Wales and given his form and the lack of it from Byrne, this should have happened in the 6 nations and possibly the autumn too.
Also expect our line out to be completely dominated and the ball we do win will be dreadful. Also expect warburtom to pounce on a few that completely clear the line. Bennett normally saves this master class for a line out 5 metres from our line.

Wish that you hadnt used the B word;I have come out in a rash.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

manofgwent wrote:Expect johnny wilkinson to bombard priestland. It's priestland 1st start for Wales and given his form and the lack of it from Byrne, this should have happened in the 6 nations and possibly the autumn too.
Also expect our line out to be completely dominated and the ball we do win will be dreadful. Also expect warburtom to pounce on a few that completely clear the line. Bennett normally saves this master class for a line out 5 metres from our line.

Wish that you hadnt used the B word;I have come out in a rash.

I think Preistland will hold up pretty well with Scarlets team mate north one side of him and Old head Shane the other. Let's just hope Phillips is having a miraculous good day and gives such an attacking back 3 some quick ball to work with.

I'm surprised the mods haven't deleted the B word or at least changed it for something less offensive.

Kicking high and/or crossfield only shows you are not creative if that is all you do. If you mix it up with other options then it is all part of your creativity. Keeping the opposition guessing and moving them around is all part of rugby. Flinging the ball around, keeping it in hand and going wide early is, in itself, not particularly creative. It is one-dimensional unless a) you do something else sometimes or b) the opposition think you might.

Let's hope both side try a variety of different tactics - part of which is a structured game and part is going a bit looser - WHEN the time is right.

Totally agree Safeasmilk as my original post alluded to.

I dare say if Jones kicks for North to run in a try - it will be welcome and creative!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Totally agree Safeasmilk as my original post alluded to.

I dare say if Jones kicks for North to run in a try - it will be welcome and creative!

Its hardly a CREATIVE tactic, but it is one that can work if you notice a winger is poor at tracking back, or a fullback is out of position.

I dont think either team or their fans will care how their own tries are scored as long as their team are scoring them.

To be fair, if Wales scored three tries from lineouts and scrummages we would probably lay down a bigger marker than if we ran them in through the fantastic running of Shane Williams or the pace of North.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Totally agree Safeasmilk as my original post alluded to.

I dare say if Jones kicks for North to run in a try - it will be welcome and creative!

Its hardly a CREATIVE tactic, but it is one that can work if you notice a winger is poor at tracking back, or a fullback is out of position.

I dont think either team or their fans will care how their own tries are scored as long as their team are scoring them.

To be fair, if Wales scored three tries from lineouts and scrummages we would probably lay down a bigger marker than if we ran them in through the fantastic running of Shane Williams or the pace of North.

Agreed it isn't the most creative of tactics but equally it is not an admission of failure or lack of creativity which is what was suggested. It is a legitimate tactic & the point I was making was the massive height difference between Shane & Banahan & therefore a worthwhile one.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Totally agree Safeasmilk as my original post alluded to.

I dare say if Jones kicks for North to run in a try - it will be welcome and creative!

Its hardly a CREATIVE tactic, but it is one that can work if you notice a winger is poor at tracking back, or a fullback is out of position.

I dont think either team or their fans will care how their own tries are scored as long as their team are scoring them.

To be fair, if Wales scored three tries from lineouts and scrummages we would probably lay down a bigger marker than if we ran them in through the fantastic running of Shane Williams or the pace of North.

Agreed it isn't the most creative of tactics but equally it is not an admission of failure or lack of creativity which is what was suggested. It is a legitimate tactic & the point I was making was the massive height difference between Shane & Banahan & therefore a worthwhile one.

I don't think analysis would prove that high kicks are a good way to beat Shane Williams, he may be very short for a rugby player, but he is amazing at defending in the air.

Yes it's a tactic worth using if the kick is accurate enough but any error of judgment could see the opposition winger scoring at the other end.
In my opinion the master of cross field kicks is Ronan O'Gara .

Looking forward to England scoring tries however they come. Out wide, through the centre, rolling maul, pick and drive, interception from their own try line, it doesn't matter. Will also take points however they are offered up, penalties and drop goals are all part of the game.

Creative to me means creating situations and opportunites that benefit you. Being creative doesn't mean that a particular move necessarily ends in a try or has to be a flashy backs move. Often it is a cumulative effort to keep the opposition guessing and on the back foot. Part of that might be two crossfield kicks in quick succession followed by another option 3rd time around. Or another kick as a double bluff.

That is creative.

Creating chances. Creating doubts in the mind of the opposition. Creating a platfrom from where you are in control.

Oh, and I don't necessarily subscribe to the notion that a big kick against a little winger will neccessarily work every time (Shane is good at jumping and timing) but it's in the armoury. Not overdoing it is key.

nottins wrote:Looking forward to England scoring tries however they come. Out wide, through the centre, rolling maul, pick and drive, interception from their own try line, it doesn't matter. Will also take points however they are offered up, penalties and drop goals are all part of the game.

How much do you think England will win by...?

I think if Wilkinson has a good game we'll win. Kick for corners and pressure the line-out, target the inexperienced duo of Priestland and North and, if we get their inexperienced back three under pressure, take the points as and when they become available. Yes this is a warm-up match, but it is also a test match. If England win 24-20, 8 penalties/drop goals to 4 unconverted tries, I won't care one bit.

maestegmafia wrote:

nottins wrote:Looking forward to England scoring tries however they come. Out wide, through the centre, rolling maul, pick and drive, interception from their own try line, it doesn't matter. Will also take points however they are offered up, penalties and drop goals are all part of the game.

How much do you think England will win by...?

I never predict the outcomes of games.

nottins wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nottins wrote:Looking forward to England scoring tries however they come. Out wide, through the centre, rolling maul, pick and drive, interception from their own try line, it doesn't matter. Will also take points however they are offered up, penalties and drop goals are all part of the game.

How much do you think England will win by...?

I never predict the outcomes of games.

But you are looking forcasting England will score tries are you?

flyhalffactory wrote:

nottins wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nottins wrote:Looking forward to England scoring tries however they come. Out wide, through the centre, rolling maul, pick and drive, interception from their own try line, it doesn't matter. Will also take points however they are offered up, penalties and drop goals are all part of the game.

How much do you think England will win by...?

I never predict the outcomes of games.

But you are looking forcasting England will score tries are you?

No. I said I'm looking forward to them scoring tries however they come or penalties or drop goals. Scoring more points than the opposition wins games.

"Scoring more points than the opposition wins games."

Crikey you don't say!!

Thats where the rest of us are going wrong then!!!

nottins wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

nottins wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

nottins wrote:Looking forward to England scoring tries however they come. Out wide, through the centre, rolling maul, pick and drive, interception from their own try line, it doesn't matter. Will also take points however they are offered up, penalties and drop goals are all part of the game.

How much do you think England will win by...?

I never predict the outcomes of games.

But you are looking forcasting England will score tries are you?

No. I said I'm looking forward to them scoring tries however they come or penalties or drop goals. Scoring more points than the opposition wins games.

What you said is written above, I must admit I agree with flyhalffactory your initial post sounds far more as though you would predict that England are about to win at a canter, scoring in every conceivable way. Rather than you being happy so long as they win.

no it doesn't

maestegmafia wrote:
I must admit I agree with flyhalffactory your initial post sounds far more as though you would predict that England are about to win at a canter, scoring in every conceivable way. Rather than you being happy so long as they win.

I did not predict England would win at a canter. Please do stop making things up. I said I'm happy however England score points, even better if they win. If you want to twist it to suit your own agenda, then that's up to you.

Well the good thing is both coaches have said that they will play an expansive game. MJ stating the win "ugly" is not good for the game.

With the likes of Priestland, Jon Davies, Shane, and North, and Tuilagi/Fluety its gotta be a classic

So lets hope you guys enjoy it

I'll be happy (well bl00dy estatic) if we manage to score more than two tries against Ireland

I can see Flutey making space for Tuilagi to punch holes in the center....sadly I can't see Cueto or Bananananahan running on his shoulder at pace for the offload and making it to the try line like you'd expect Ashton to. Maybe Banahan could get most of the way there with brute force and hope one of the backrow is up in support quickly.

I'd expect to focus on keeping it tight first half while we don't have much pace out wide, and then hopefully having the nous to change to a wider game when the likes of Sharples come on.

I think Flutey's form is going to swing the match personally.

manofgwent wrote:Expect johnny wilkinson to bombard priestland. It's priestland 1st start for Wales and given his form and the lack of it from Byrne, this should have happened in the 6 nations and possibly the autumn too.
Also expect our line out to be completely dominated and the ball we do win will be dreadful. Also expect warburtom to pounce on a few that completely clear the line. Bennett normally saves this master class for a line out 5 metres from our line.

If England expect to dominate the lineout then I can see them kicking for touch more that they just kick it downfield

mid_gen wrote:I can see Flutey making space for Tuilagi to punch holes in the center...

I think Flutey's form is going to swing the match personally.

I was trying to establish a few pages back whether Fluty is in any form or not.

Do you think he is ?

There is one tactic that will go a long way to us winning the ball.

As soon as possible after kick off get BENNETT OFF THE FIELD.

bedfordwelsh wrote:There is one tactic that will go a long way to us winning the ball.

As soon as possible after kick off get BENNETT OFF THE FIELD.

we may revert to the 2008 mode of doing everything to avoid lineouts...

Then again if he has a complete stinker and gets a load of bad press Gatland will get rid of him.


I do think people on here go a little over the top on Bennett.

maestegmafia wrote:

mid_gen wrote:I can see Flutey making space for Tuilagi to punch holes in the center...

I think Flutey's form is going to swing the match personally.

I was trying to establish a few pages back whether Fluty is in any form or not.

Do you think he is ?

Should rephrase that. I would like to see Flutey making the space. To be hones I have seen very little of him since the Lions, and really have no idea about his form.

I hope we'll see some decent backline moves from Wales - we didn't see any off first-phase ball throughout the Six Nations - but I expect we'll see Jamie Roberts running hard and straight all day. I'd like to see us - forwards and backs - draw the tackler and look to offload to put someone else in space, but more likely we'll be taking the ball in to contact to set up rucks as usual.

England would do well to kick to the corners and put pressure on our lineout. They know Huw Bennett's rubbish even if Warren Gatland doesn't.

I actually think Wales will confound what Gatland and the pundits are suggesting and will actually keep it tight using a strong and mobile back row along with Phillips to drive up the middle and hopefully recycyle phase after phase until the english defence has been sucked in and then release or carry on driving accordingly if England don't commit enough players to the breakdown or Maul. Faletau in particular is a strong and dynamic lad; possibly the strongest back rower on the field.

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:There is one tactic that will go a long way to us winning the ball.

As soon as possible after kick off get BENNETT OFF THE FIELD.

we may revert to the 2008 mode of doing everything to avoid lineouts...

Then again if he has a complete stinker and gets a load of bad press Gatland will get rid of him.


I do think people on here go a little over the top on Bennett.

mm,

I maybe one of those BUT I do think he is a complete waste of time. Despite his in experience I would much rather have seen Burns start.

If he does have a stinker then I hope Gatland has the sense to haul him off at first sign not leave it until its to late.

Ruby, England certainly got caught out against Ireland by not commiting enough forwards to the breakdown. The problem is that we got caught out doing exactly the same thing against France!

I agree Luckless I just think this is a far more mobile back row unit which is also stronger. I also think it's the reason we have Phillips and Jones at half back to keep the game relatively tight and play the percentages. My worry is our defensive formation which can be sieve like. What I'm suggesting is a 2008 type of performance where we played a pretty conservative game until gaps appeared. It was intelligent rugby; a far cry from the past couple of years.

In the absence of Ashton I'd guess you'd look to see Care or Croft taking the offloads from Tuilagi or Banahan.

I can't wait to see our back-row having a stormer. It is definitely wales' shining light. Can't wait to see Toby making the yards while a stunned twickenham wonder who this kid is.
I still see us getting beat though. 16-20 points. I think wilkinson will kick us to death.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Ruby, England certainly got caught out against Ireland by not commiting enough forwards to the breakdown. The problem is that we got caught out doing exactly the same thing against France!

Does it count as getting caught out against France if we still came away with the win? Hopefully having it so ruthlessly exposed by Ireland has drawn attention to it and it is something we've worked on.