Southgate's England and the next England manager

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

mountain man wrote:I disagree, Maguire usually good for England so I can understand why Southgate picks him.

Note I'm not a Man Utd fan(not a fan of any club just follow Eng).

He's only usually good because usually England are playing poor opposition.

When it comes to the step-up...losing Giroud for France's winner, making an error v Italy that led to a goal, two errors v Germany that led to goals in the Nations League, errors against Denmark where he got sent-off.

Maguire - fine when faced with Wales or Iran, hopeless when faced with France. There's a reason Ten Hag favours a left-back in Luke Shaw to play ahead of Maguire at United.

Double post.

I feel like Maguire would be considered an iconic, great player if he'd been born even a decade earlier. Unfortunately in this team he's the outlier where you can almost see the gears turning in his head when he gets the ball.

Maguire's never gonna live up to his price tag and it's become a bit of an anchor for his career at this point. In a competent and well organised defense he's a good player who also carries the ball well out of defense, which is why he tends to be fine in an England shirt, who lean defensively under Southgate. At United it's been somewhat less than coherent and he's become the the figurehead of that mess. Now it just seems like it's too far gone to be recoverable and a fresh start suits everyone.

I don't mind him in the squad, I'd prefer him to be a squad player than first choice at this point. I'd also point out the "experimental options" are with the U21s for the European championship rather than these two rather throwaway games. Colwill perhaps will get a look next season.

On the cricket thread we are debating who should play instead of Moeen, and the argument over Maguire is similar - he's proven in the past he's a not bad player, also that he probably isn't good enough at the absolute top level, but that there isn't really an obvious replacement that is an upgrade.
In other words, it's all very well saying drop Maguire, but is Mings (for example) likely to do a better job as the left side centre back? And does Mings having a good game againt Malta or North MAcedonia actually demonstrate anything? Would need to see how he performs against the likes of France to really make the judgement on whether he is an upgrade, and we simply don't play that many matches where the opponent is THAT good.

ill jump in on the maguire discussion, im a united fan so watched him pretty much every game for quite a while. he started ok, but hes never been comfortable playing so high up the pitch. most top sides play high up in a high press, when he was at Leicester/hull/england they have always be deep lying sides looking to just break (he had a reasonable season under ole as he played similar for abit)

but after the greece incident, then poor performances he's massively lacking confidence now. he doesn't engage the defender or try he winning the ball hes so scared of getting skinned. if england want to be a side that winning things hes not the answer, hes a mid table kind of defender at best. sit deep defending crosses into the box

compelling and rich wrote:ill jump in on the maguire discussion, im a united fan so watched him pretty much every game for quite a while. he started ok, but hes never been comfortable playing so high up the pitch. most top sides play high up in a high press, when he was at Leicester/hull/england they have always be deep lying sides looking to just break (he had a reasonable season under ole as he played similar for abit)

but after the greece incident, then poor performances he's massively lacking confidence now. he doesn't engage the defender or try he winning the ball hes so scared of getting skinned. if england want to be a side that winning things hes not the answer, hes a mid table kind of defender at best. sit deep defending crosses into the box

Which is fine, but the question is who do you replace him with? Do we actually have a better option, or do we accept that it's a position of relative weakness in what is otherwise coming together as a decent team?

Tomori is the obvious upgrade. Also there's Colwill, did well for Brighton last season and the U21s this summer, as a future option. And White at Arsenal. Guehi, at Palace, I would prefer to Maguire. I'd even rather go back to Mings than play Maguire. Could even play Shaw at centre-back and use Chilwell on the left.

I'm not sure that Tomori is any better - while he looks good for Milan, I think the level of Serie A is not great at the moment.

Not sure what went on with White at the WC, but there's clearly some baggage there. I agree he's a good player, but not sure he'll get back into the squad in the near term.

Guehi? There's a reason he's at Palace and not being scouted by the top teams. Good mid premier league player. Mings is in the same category (and probably where Maguire should be).

Shaw is a much better left back than central defender. Don't think it's an upgraed on Maguire and weakens the left side overall.

Which leaves Colwill, or another youngster coming through - hopefully one of them will make the grade and step into HM's boots before the Euros final.

England U21s win the U21 European Championship, defeating Spain 1-0 in a game full of incident. Trafford had to perform a remarkable double-save, from a penalty and then the rebound, in the final minute to secure the win. Great achievement.

Six games, six wins, eleven goals, zero conceded...pretty perfect.

Good to see Archer and Ramsey do well. Shame Ramsey got injured.

Southgate has picked Maguire, Phillips and Henderson for his latest squad.

Any goodwill I had towards Southgate as a result of the World Cup is rapidly diminishing. Henderson is picking up his children's inheritance money in Saudi; while Maguire hasn't played a minute this season as far as I'm aware, after rejecting an approach from West Ham which would have seen him be a regular starter; and Phillips also hasn't played a minute for City this season.

Every indication that those three will be in the Euros squad next summer, for what is probably Southgate's last tilt at a trophy with England. On the positive side, Tomori and Colwill are in the squad. Nketiah is also in, while Sterling's England career may be over under Southgate.

Was listening to Talk Sport Drive the other day, must have been after the squad was announced & the presenter said that in his opinion England had the best front 6 of any European nation. Also thinks it would be a huge failure if they don't win the Euro's next year.

Maguire stuff seems a bit over the top. Stones injured, Mings out for the season, Dier already disposed of, Coady now plays in the championship and no idea what happened with Ben White at the WC. Meanwhile Tomori, Guehi and Colwill all in the squad to stake a claim with Dunk the other experienced option.

Probably time to move on from Henderson. Phillips needs to play some games ideally, though if Rice or Bellingham pick up an injury we're pretty screwed in midfield regardless.

Easy win over Scotland, after a solid, but uninspiring, point v Ukraine.

Things looking very good up front ahead of the Euros, with Kane and Bellingham excelling, and a wealth of other options to play wider (Saka, Grealish, Foden, Rashford in particular). Just sort out the defence and England have a good shot at the Euros.

Was interested in seeing Scotland's resurgence but they were pretty poor aside from a surge either side of the goal.

Jude and Rice alongside Kane in the irreplaceable category. Touch wood they all get through this season, not really much behind them.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/oct/04/world-cup-2030-to-be-hosted-in-spain-portugal-morocco-and-south-america

The 2030 World Cup, set to be hosted here, there and everywhere. The main crux of the tournament will be in Spain, Portugal and Morocco, however Uruguay, Argentina and Paraguay will host the first three games of the tournament to honour the 100th anniversary.

F**k the fans once again. Saudi almost certain to get the 2034 World Cup, as it'll have to be hosted in Asia/Oceania, and a Saudi bid will blow anyone else out the water.

And the UK and Ireland will be hosting Euro 2028, after Turkey joined up with Italy to bid to host 2032.

So England with a good 3-1 win at home to Italy, guaranteeing their qualification for the next Euros and no-one wants to comment?

Considering we were without our best two left backs (Shaw, Chilwell) and player of the year for the last two years (Saka), it was a thoroughly professional performance and shows that there is good strength in depth.

Played with a great deal more fluency and a little bit more direct at times than is sometimes the case - Bellingham in that AM / #10 position makes a huge difference to the team.

Well so far England look as if they can't be bothered, dreadful.
Maybe should have had at least one penalty if not two but so lacklustre.

mountain man wrote:Well so far England look as if they can't be bothered, dreadful.
Maybe should have had at least one penalty if not two but so lacklustre.

It's becoming something of a pattern - when England are good they can be very good, but they throw in quite a lot of these seriously lacklustre games against mediocre opposition. The careful, keep ball approach is OK when the opposition will come out to make a game of it, but really struggles to break through teams that have limited aspirations going forwards.

Admittedly, it should have been 3-0, as disallowing Rice's goal was quite harsh as the ball never touched Kane and he wasn't interferring with the keepers vision of the shot, but even then the lack of ambition is sometimes annoying. When we get the ball into the opposition third of the field, we need to be prepared to take a few risks - throw ins particularly bug me, with us invariably going back to the full back, then back and across to the cetre halves rather than putting the ball in the box and letting players compete for it.

I think it's kinda the nature of the international calendar. Too much football being played, so there's probably a method in half speed stuff trying to prevent burnout. Also not entirely sure there's much value in 90 minutes against vastly inferior opposition from a team building/tactics mindset. Probably more work done on the training ground.

International football needs cutting during the season. Bloated with pointless friendlies or mismatches when club football is ramping up

Well I thought Eng were poor against Malta but last night was terrible. OK referee was appalling but overall Eng were pretty dreadful.

In past I've always defended Maguire and he's usually been good for Eng but last night he was bad.

Lewis looked bright and no way was that a penalty but anyway.

mountain man wrote:Well I thought Eng were poor against Malta but last night was terrible. OK referee was appalling but overall Eng were pretty dreadful.

In past I've always defended Maguire and he's usually been good for Eng but last night he was bad.

Lewis looked bright and no way was that a penalty but anyway.

That refereeing performance has to be one of the worst I've ever seen. Not bias, just absolute incompetence.

The pen that was given was no foul - Lewis's hand has to go somewhere, and the attacker ran into it. On the other hand, I thought Maguire was very lucky with the one earlier where he fell into the attacker.

Not sure what was wrong with VAR - Grealish was clearly off for the disallowed goal, and you could see that from the still frame - didn't need lines drawing from the defender, and certainly didn't need 3 minutes + to decide. Also, shouldn't hve been off - didn't need to push the line so much as Saka was cutting through the defenders.
I don't rate Grealish as a wide left player - too much just coming back and slowing things down. Saka sometimes the same on the other side, but at least had some positive moments cutting inside. Playing this formation with risk-averse full backs and central midfielders just results in slow and negative play.

Draw has been made for the Euros.

Group A: Germany, Hungary, Scotland, Switzerland
Group B: Spain, Albania, Croatia, Italy
Group C: England, Denmark, Slovenia, Serbia
Group D: France, Austria, Netherlands, play-off winner A (potentially Wales)
Group E: Belgium, Romania, Slovakia, play-off winner B
Group F: Portugal, Turkey, Czech Republic, play-off winner C

As kind a draw as England could have hoped for. Not the kindest for Scotland, however, and certainly not for Wales who will be well up against it should they qualify.

If England win their group, as they should, then the probable path is: playing a third-placed team in the last 16; the runner-up of either Group A or B in the quarters (could be Spain/Italy/Croatia, most likely one of those three), most likely France in the semis (presuming France win their group), though it could be the Dutch; and whatever's left in the final (Germany/Spain/Italy).

If England go through in second, then the probable path is: Germany in the last 16, Spain/Italy in the Quarters, Netherlands/Portugal in the semis, France in the final.

So, naturally, England winning the group is the best outcome. But it would, presuming France win their group also, put them in the same half of the draw as France, setting a collision course for a probable semi-final.

France and England look the two front-runners for the tournament, with Germany, Italy and perhaps Spain looking the most dangerous outside of that.

But England have struggled to win games against big teams at major tournaments for a longgggggg time. Can Southgate defy history and take England that little bit further, in what is likely to be his last tournament leading England?

Duty
Thanks for breaking down the draw - not so sure it is a great draw fr England, as the teams we seem to have had most problems with in the last 18 months have been technically sound possession-based teams who are happy to sit behind the ball in defence, which is exactly how I'd expect Slovenia and Serbia to play. Denmark may be the best opponnts on paper, but I suspect will play a style that is more suited to England's strengths.

Oddly, I actually prefer the path for finishing 2nd (obviously, it won't end up following your predictions, as these tournaments never do) - France are the one team I think we will really struggle with unless we get some better defenders - we know where we are with Maguire and Stones (especially with Henderson or Phillips in a holding position in front): good enough to beat most opposition but struggle against the really top level opponents. S for the attacking options, I'm still to be convinced we've got the optimum line-up, but at least Southgate has plenty of quality to pick from in the front 3 or 4 - assuming there are no (or at least few) injury absences, this part of the filed is in the 'good problems to have' category, and some very good players are likely to miss out.

Goalkeepers: Dean Henderson (Crystal Palace), Jordan Pickford (Everton), Aaron Ramsdale (Arsenal), James Trafford (Burnley).

Defenders: Jarrad Branthwaite (Everton), Lewis Dunk (Brighton), Joe Gomez (Liverpool), Marc Guehi (Crystal Palace), Ezri Konsa (Aston Villa), Harry Maguire (Manchester United), Jarell Quansah (Liverpool), Luke Shaw (Manchester United), John Stones (Manchester City), Kieran Trippier (Newcastle), Kyle Walker (Manchester City)

Midfielders: Trent Alexander-Arnold (Liverpool), Conor Gallagher (Chelsea), Curtis Jones (Liverpool), Kobbie Mainoo (Manchester United), Declan Rice (Arsenal), Adam Wharton (Crystal Palace).

Forwards: Jude Bellingham (Real Madrid), Jarrod Bowen (West Ham), Eberechi Eze (Crystal Palace), Phil Foden (Manchester City), Jack Grealish (Manchester City), Anthony Gordon (Newcastle), Harry Kane (Bayern Munich), James Maddison (Tottenham), Cole Palmer (Chelsea), Bukayo Saka (Arsenal), Ivan Toney (Brentford), Ollie Watkins (Aston Villa).

Defense still looks somewhat dicey, midfield looks better with the emergence of Wharton and Mainoo (probably leave both at home now).

Those attacking options though. Grealish probably fair enough for his impact off the bench, Maddison probably pretty fortunate given his form and the options.

If England don't win the Euros with that squad, it's a failure. Dripping with talent everywhere. Just got to overcome Southgate's limitations and the curse of Harry Kane. Even Munich weren't safe from the curse of Kane.

Hopefully Southgate stays positive and doesn't revert to three centre backs at any point. Excellent to see he's dropped favourites Rashford and Henderson.

Wary of painting anything short of winning the entire thing as failure given you inevitably need some good fortune at some point (and the defense looks decidedly dodgy). But certainly England should be capable of going head on against anybody else.

So rejoin us when everyone loses it after Gareth elects to manage his way through a group stage that only eliminates 3 teams anyway

Of course that's only the provisional squad of 33, will be trimmed to 26 in a couple of weeks.

I assume from the squad groupings that we will be playing 4-2-3-1

Goalkeeping is quite a week position. Pickford is adequate and the best of a moderate set of choices.

Defence: Right back options are good. Central defence obviously has Stones and then the choice between Maguire who has been in poor form for ages or someone like Dunk with little international experience. Left back...Shaw would be an absolute nailed on starter if fit, but won't be, so becomes a serious problem of putting a square peg in a round hole - Trippier or Gomez?

2 'holding' midfielders - Rice is a certainty. TA-A and Gallagher for me certain to travel, plus probably one of the youngsters. An area of reasonable ability but not much experience.

3 attacking midfielders - The strongest area of the squad, and where Southgate has to figure out how to maximise the potential of Foden and Bellingham while still finding room for the likes of Saka and Palmer. I wouldn't be surprised if Grealish is one of the players to miss out on the final 26 - for me he seems like a triumph of style over substance.

CF - Kane obviously first choice. I suspect both Toney and Watkins to make the squad.

To be honest, I think it's a good squad given the options available. The omissions of Henderson, Rashford and Phillips are reasonable. Still stronger in the attacking end than in defence.

I'd probably like to see.

-----------------------------Pickford
Walker------------Stones------------Dunk----------Shaw
--------------------Bellingham-------Rice----------------------
Saka--------------------------Foden----------------Palmer
--------------------------------Kane----------------------------

It's difficult to fit these attacking options in! But I think Bellingham alongside Rice, with Bellingham given license to go forward. Foden is best as a 10 and should be utilised there. Palmer's been excellent this season and should start. Left back is make the most of what England have (I'm surprised Chilwell wasn't included). Anyone but Maguire in defence.

Then the bench just has many great attacking options.

But in reality I expect Foden to play on the left and Maguire to start. Though Southgate has made some good calls with the squad.

Will be interesting to see if this is Southgate's last tournament. His contract is up in December 2024. If England do achieve success at Euro 2024, it would be incredibly difficult for Southgate to walk away with a golden shot at the World Cup looming in two years; but if England make it four major tournaments in a row where they fail to beat a top nation, it surely has to be the end.

I don't think Shaw will make it so likely means Trippier at LB and Gomez going given his versatility.

I'd guess Southgate will go

Pickford
Walker-Stones-Maguire-Trippier
Rice-Gallagher
Saka-Bellingham-Foden
Kane

If I had to guess, Trafford is pretty nailed on to drop out, Shaw too. Can't see both Toney and Watkins travelling.

Dunk was probably spared the Rashford and Henderson treatment by Southgate taking a few risks on what defenders will be fit, I'd guess he's unlikely to go. Probably add Quansah.

Then it's probably two of Eze, Bowen or Maddison staying home I think?

GSC wrote:If I had to guess, Trafford is pretty nailed on to drop out, Shaw too. Can't see both Toney and Watkins travelling.

Dunk was probably spared the Rashford and Henderson treatment by Southgate taking a few risks on what defenders will be fit, I'd guess he's unlikely to go. Probably add Quansah.

Then it's probably two of Eze, Bowen or Maddison staying home I think?

my suspicion is that Southgate might want some options for centre forward, so one as a straight backup to Kane (well, as close as anyone is), and an extra CF who can change the game / tactics in a crisis, which I think Toney can (different style, but similar to how Vardy had a role as a sub for England). Why I would be unsurprised for both going.

Trafford's selection in the squad just highlights how there is a dirth of English goalkeeping talent at the moment.

Maddison surely doesn't make the cut - has been underwhelming this season, while Eze and Bowen have had brighter moments. I'd be tempted to keep Bowen in the squad, as he is a bit different in style to the other attackers.

GSC wrote:I don't think Shaw will make it so likely means Trippier at LB and Gomez going given his versatility.

I'd guess Southgate will go

Pickford
Walker-Stones-Maguire-Trippier
Rice-Gallagher
Saka-Bellingham-Foden
Kane

Assuming everyone (other than Shaw) is fit, I would be surprised to see any other line up take to the pitch in our first game, bar potentially TAA for Gallagher. Now, whether this maximises the potential of the attacking players is a different question, but it looks the best on paper.

I'd honestly like to see Wharton but I dont think Southgate is that brave. As fun as some of the options sound, trying to win every knockout game 4-3 doesn't seem like a great strategy

I think Bellingham in the 10 makes sense - he's been one of the best players in the world playing that role for Madrid this year, I wouldn't want to potentially stifle him playing him deeper.
Foden can still be very effective out wide left, and is probably our best option there. I wouldn't be playing Palmer wide left, he doesn't have the athleticism Foden does to make it work. Palmer for me is first backup for Saka, if his poor club form continues into the first few games of the tournament.

The only real questions when it comes to the XI are LB if Shaw is out, and who plays alongside Rice in CM. Trent has played there for England, I wouldn't be stunned if Southgate goes with him